So, the lying...

[obliv326]

If anyone has been following my story, I have had a mostly long distance thing with a pwBPD for awhile. It hit bottom in the spring. We stopped talking for awhile, then she reestablished contact, and we've been sort of feeling things out every since. Today we met in person for the first time since she reached out. It was a little awkward but that was to be expected given the history and time since we'd seen each other. I think it was a kind of scary thing for her and I think th fact that she put the effort into it means a lot.

The problem I have is that I caught her in a couple lies. This was something that caused a lot of problems before and while they aren't really consequential, and she might be doing it to keep from upsetting or hurting me as much as she is trying to deceive me, it's just hurtful knowing that it's happening.

My question is what to do? I would like to be able to point out that I know she had not been honest with me, and that I really didn't care about the thing she was keeping from me. I understand why she wouldn't want to tell me, bc in the past I would have gotten upset. But now, I'd rather her just be honest... .or at least don't lie. If you don't want to broach a topic, then don't. But please don't lie.

However, if I do that, I know she'll get defensive and either lash out at me or push me away. I feel like we're starting to slowly rebuild what we had, but it's really fragile and I'm sure she's more comfortable not opening up about everything. But still, it has always made me feel disrespected and obviously damages the trust we're trying to create.

I guess I'm wondering how to frame it, for started. Even breaching the topic is Going to cause her to close herself off. Do I let it go now since it didn't really matter or affect anything? I kind of feel like if we can bridge the gap a little, she'll be more inclined to trust me and will value that.

But this is kind of how it's gone the whole time I've known her. We'd have a good talk and things would feel okay, and before I even had time to relax something would happen that would shake my trust.

Anyway, if you have any advice, words to help... .anything... .I'd appreciate it

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[ArleighBurke]

If the issue wont come up again then let it go.  The fact she is trying to keep the peace is good. If it'll come up again then tell her you know about it, thank her for caring about you and the relationship, and tell her you have matured and you are ok with it. Then in the stunned silence quickly move into another topic.

[obliv326]

Tell her that I'm okay with the lie, or with what she was lying about? I don't want her to think it is okay to lie to me. It bothers me a lot and makes me feel very unappreciated.

How about something like this... .

A friend of ours mentioned to me that they saw you at a party the other night after you had told me you were going to a church thing. I can understand why you would do that. I know I used to get pretty upset when you would go to those kind of things, and I do appreciate the fact that you care enough to try to keep from hurting me and keep the peace we've got going. It means a lot. But I have a different perspective on it now and it doesn't bother me like it did, so I'd like it if you felt like you didn't have to hide things from me.

Thoughts?

[ArleighBurke]

Sounds good. I would change the end a little... .

A friend of ours mentioned to me that they saw you at a party the other night after you had told me you were going to a church thing. I can understand why you would do that. I know I used to get pretty upset when you would go to those kind of things, and I do appreciate the fact that you care enough to try to keep from hurting me and keep the peace we've got going. It means a lot. But I have a different perspective on it now and it doesn't bother me like it did, so I'd like it if you felt like you didn't have to hide things from me. so I think it would be good if you were able to be honest with me in the future - I think I can handle that and honesty is the best thing for our relationship.

[patientandclear]

I'm guessing this may be moot by now, but if not: she is not doing you some favor by trying to compartmentalize and tell you one thing while doing another. "It means a lot/I appreciate it" is when someone does something hard to your benefit--not when they do something easy to their benefit. There is nothing to be gained by painting her deception as something positive, let alone something you should be grateful for.

[obliv326]

Okay, so I'm completely confused. It seems like I am getting contradictory advice here... .And it isn't moot. She sort of withdrew after we hung out. I had brief interactions since then, but I'm guessing she's feeling engulfed again and pulling back.

I'm letting her have space, but damn... .This is so confusing. I don't know what to do, not just about the lying but about any of this. It's so contrary to what you are supposed to do.

[patientandclear]

I agree, the advice AB and I are giving is somewhat contradictory. I'm suggesting that you NOT praise and appreciate her untruthfulness ("I appreciate it/it means a lot". That seems unnecessary and actually contrary to your core beliefs. You do NOT appreciate that she lied to you. Pandering is not a good idea especially when it actually gives her wrong information about what matters to you.

However, if it were me, I probably wouldn't raise it at all. This is just data for you. She is untruthful, she tells you what you want to hear. She manipulates your view of her with incomplete or inaccurate information. This is what she does. Radical acceptance.

The person wBPD in my life says things I know are untrue, things that matter. He is trying to get me not to think badly of him. If I were to respond with "I know that's not true" it would be very hard for us to proceed. I try to sidestep the issue and just say that whatever the situation was, we're in a different place now, and focus on going forward. There is a lot of shame involved in telling the person you know they aren't telling the truth, and their impulse to lie may come from a place of shame too. Sometimes dealing with the issues indirectly works best. Also, there may be better or worse times to engage the issue. Sometimes I've held my tongue for months or years until an opportunity naturally presented itself to touch on the issue in a kind non-shaming way.

My pwBPD brought up in a conversation this year on his own initiative that he'd lied to me 5 years earlier, and tried to explain why. He remembered the exact situation, more clearly than I did. Sometimes creating a sense of safety and acceptance may get you further than pushing to work through the issue on your own time frame.

Right now, she's gone, for whatever reason. Pushing to discuss her lie now probably isn't good timing.

If this ever does come up, I was just recommending that you not "validate the invalid." Don't thank her for lying to you or act like you like it, if you don't. Mixed messages are something to avoid.

[obliv326]

Patientandclear

Thanks. This is huge. I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult this is for someone in my position. On the one hand, I've found someone I care deeply about... .on the other, I have lost confidence in my ability to communicate with them. I don't feel like I can just be honest bc they don't process things the way I do.

I also appreciate AB's contribution. While I have a very difficult time considering praising her for lying, it does help somewhat to know that it might not be because she doesn't respect me enough to be honest. She might be doing it bc she doesn't want to hurt me or damage the repair we're doing on the relationship.

For the record, I didn't give her any praise. I haven't brought it up. I get the feeling that she's withdrawing a bit but she isn't NC, and hasn't been unpleasant or negative really. I've given her space and reach out when I have something to say. She usually responds, but if she doesn't, I've kind of accepted that as how she is... .radical acceptance, I suppose. I try not to take it as some kind of referendum on me or the relationship and just try to be positive when we do talk.

I guess the goal here is to be her "rock"... .I'm not going anywhere and your reactions aren't going to get to me... .correct?

[ynwa]

It is good to see you working through this. It shows your genuine caring and interest in taking her disorder into account.

and I would say the goal here might be to actually be your OWN rock?

[patientandclear]

I dunno. It depends on where your limits are. I think one thing many here will agree on is that you need to know the answer to that question and not lose track of it, even if that may cost you the r/ship in the short or long term.

I was a rock for my ex wBPD. No one has been more accepting, listened better, cared more. He ended up treating our relationship in ways that, to me, aren't commensurate with me showing up as someone's rock. To oversimplify somewhat, that's why I no longer show up that way in his life. To get to this point, I had to play it out and find out.

Bear in mind it is tough to truly find out if the other person involved systematically misleads you, as my ex did, and as it sounds like the woman in your life might. In the end that mattered to me because I felt I would never know what was true. He had a understandable preference for telling me things consistent with me being his rock, and concealing other information that might have caused me to be less enthusiastic about that role.

You're right, it is tough to care so much for someone and to have communication be so tough. Good luck finding a way forward you can feel at peace about.

[earlyL]

Hi Obliv326,

I am in a really similar position to you it would seem right now with my BPD partner and this thread has been really helpful, I feel I agree with patientandclear. I find my emotions are all over the place and I am desperate to speak to her about it, but the thing I have learnt most recently is that my partner will come to me eventually when she is ready to talk and anything I try to say or ask before that just becomes an argument.  This forum has helped so much for me to understand why this is the case, for me I just want to discuss it all out and move on, but she cannot possibly understand that and I am trying to focus on whether this is something I can sustain in a relationship. There is such a huge amount of strength and patience needed in these relationships it would seem, but I also think being your own rock as someone else has said is the most important. We have to try not to lose sight of our own values as otherwise the whole relationship is false. I say all this - I am writing from a positive morning here, and there are so many moments where I don't feel this way. But I try to keep this in mind when I am feeling low and confused.

[obliv326]

Louise

Thanks so much for your kind words. It's nice to hear that someone understands. It's funny because I look back a year ago, and I was in a much better position, and I could kick myself for screwing that up... .on the other hand, I look back six months ago, and I'm in a much better position than I was then, so I am thankful for that. I really appreciate everyone's support, and I try really hard to just let her do the pacing, but sometimes I still see her give attention to people who don't have her best interests in mind, and in fact act like they're more important, and it still gets to me. I know... .radical acceptance. This is how she is. And I'm sure I'm more sensitive to it than I should be. Those people don't know her like I do, and I doubt she'll trust them in the long run. But still, it's hard to not be able to tell her that what she's doing hurts. That when she lies, it hurts... .that not being able to hear that she cares... .yeah. It hurts. I know I get my heart broken every few days. But it's not as bad as it used to be. And again, she must feel something or I wouldn't be in her life, because I wasn't 6 months ago.

Eventually, the sting does wear off, and the recovery time is getting shorter, so maybe I'm learning. But man... .sometimes it just tears me up.

But this board has been a huge help, so thanks everyone

[patientandclear]

I will just say your feelings of pain about the situation are worth listening to.

I had what I still think was a pretty amazing, real, relationship with my BPD a few years back. Reminds me a bit of you guys--we went at his pace, it was not acknowledged as romantic (at that point) but it was (or so it felt to me); intensely intimate but with this wall he'd put up of "this far and no further." Fine, I didn't want anything he didn't want, I understood he struggled with intimacy, etc etc. I was super patient (and clear ). Despite those limits it was truly beautiful. Rare. At least to me. I felt closer to him than to almost anyone in my life to date. He was very important to me.

Regardless of his true feelings (deep deep down I think he also felt a lot for me), he suddenly moved away (after saying without any prompting that he was planning to stay in our town, making me relax a bit and invest more in our thing). He moved to a random place he had no connection to. He listed the attributes he liked about the place and they are all things we have in our city. ... .I was shocked and sad (it would sharply change our r/ship; we had often seen each other in person; I was sort of his primary person), so I asked why he felt he wanted to leave. I pointed out something would be lost and that he was leaving people who loved him (me, but not only me). He is middle aged--to leave your people totally behind at that point is no small thing to decide. His answer was so off base from the importance I ascribed to our r/ship and assumed he must too, given what I perceived we both put into it: he said "I wanted new people, places and things." He traded us in (including all the repair work I'd been willing to do after a very painful end of our whirlwind romance) for unspecified new experiences.

I share this because I don't think you can assume she ascribes the same importance to this that you do, or if she does, I'd assume there are many layers of defense mechanisms overlaying those feelings, mechanisms that may continue to break your heart.

What you're seeing now is important information about how she will be. She is showing you how it works with her.  Just--notice your own feelings about this and don't assume your task is to stuff them down or ignore them. 

[waverider]

I have this same issue, however the problem is that you cant modify an established mental processing trait by tabling a single issue. That creates a distraction from the process by making the topic all about the issue. ie she will get defensive about the specific example to the point that she will layer it with more lies and false reassurances.

Her reasons for habitual lying have nothing to do with you they are all about processing her own insecurities and feelings of self worth. Odds are she has been doing this from childhood from the smallest things to the biggest things. She is most likely oblivious to this most of the time.

It is an entrenched personality trait, and personality traits cant be turned around by a simple "talk'. You will be seen as a persecutor if you take a head on approach, as you are criticising an element of who they are.

Compulsive lying is a common BPD trait, once you uncover it you will see it in the most trivial of issues.

BPD often use language the way an impressionist painter uses brushstrokes. You always have to look at the bigger picture of what they mean and not get caught up in their smudged reality details. They will say what they feel portrays their intent rather attempting any kind of accuracy. Hence the boundaries between truth/distortion/embellishment /fabrications are often non existent. They can be masters of mix and match to present a fluid and believable representation of who they want to be.

Unfortunately this means you have to learn a level of acceptance that they are unreliable witnesses.

pwBPD are needs driven, and much of their "reality" is then distorted after the event to validate the actions they take to meet those needs. Hence they are slow learners as much energy is wasted justifying their mistakes, rather recognising them to avoid repeating them.

Whether other people have the best interests at heart is immaterial to a pwBPD as they can only see it from their own perspective of getting their needs met.  Top of that list of those needs is being validated by others. That is they like being told what they want to hear. True friends dont always do that.