An embarassing sex question...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

The sex was very good at first. VERY good. But it definitely started to fall apart around the time everything else did. Suddenly he was losing erections and talking about how he was "losing his touch" because I didn't seem as into him (NOT true). Then we went through a period of time when he couldn't come unless he masterbated. Then he cut me off entirely. I didn't bring it up because I knew that he would be overly sensitive to anything he percieved as criticism and I didn't want to make it worse. But I could tell that it was bothering HIM because he kept "inviting" me to ask him. (What's wrong, what am I doing wrong, is it the bad sex? It's the sex isn't it... .?) When I finally took the bait and asked he got very defensive and basically told me that while he was still physically attracted to me, the anxiety I was causing him was rendering him completely impotent. We haven't had sex now in 2 weeks, and not for at least a month before that.

I guess I'm just wondering if these types of issues are common with BPD partners. It makes sense considering their issues with emotional intimacy, but it isn't as common to find discussions and articles about this particular issue. Thanks for any insight.

[Lalathegreat]

The sex was very good at first. VERY good. But it definitely started to fall apart around the time everything else did. Suddenly he was losing erections and talking about how he was "losing his touch" because I didn't seem as into him (NOT true). Then we went through a period of time when he couldn't come unless he masterbated. Then he cut me off entirely. I didn't bring it up because I knew that he would be overly sensitive to anything he percieved as criticism and I didn't want to make it worse. But I could tell that it was bothering HIM because he kept "inviting" me to ask him. (What's wrong, what am I doing wrong, is it the bad sex? It's the sex isn't it... .?) When I finally took the bait and asked he got very defensive and basically told me that while he was still physically attracted to me, the anxiety I was causing him was rendering him completely impotent. We haven't had sex now in 2 weeks, and not for at least a month before that.

I guess I'm just wondering if these types of issues are common with BPD partners. It makes sense considering their issues with emotional intimacy, but it isn't as common to find discussions and articles about this particular issue. Thanks for any insight.

[formflier]

  the anxiety I was causing him was rendering him completely impotent.

I think this is common issue.

The bolded quote above is also a common externalization of responsibility for feelings... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

In my experience, the same push/pull I felt in the relationship, was expressed in the bedroom.

My partner was mostly detached or avoidant for his "push."
Meaning, he just wanted to be sought after to feel valued or something.

Just that it seemed to be the same dynamic for us, but played out in the bedroom in some way.

So when we were breaking up, he had this wildly passionate sex that was way different than him usually.  It was like his day to day behavior was doing the "pushing" so his sex was trying so desperate to connect... .weird.

[Echo87]

A lightbulb just went off for me. I've been holding on to this hurt because our sex life has diminished to once a month (if that) from very intense early on. He's shown such little interest that I've felt, of course, that there's something wrong with me, and that I'm losing him. I thought maybe he'd been looking elsewhere...

I never thought it as a BPD related issue, but perhaps it is.

[Grey Kitty]

The sex was very good at first. VERY good. But it definitely started to fall apart around the time everything else did.

Stereotypes say men are willing and able to have sex with anyone at any time, and women need an emotional/romantic connection.

Mean and women vary a bit, and don't all follow the stereotype. In this case, it is clear that all the emotional distress he's feeling is coming out in the bedroom. Yes, he IS feeling emotional distress, even if he's the one creating chaos; That doesn't change how really awful it feels in his head.

And take what he says with a grain of salt--if he says he's feeling something, that is true. If he says "X" is the reason he's feeling that, he probably believes it, but that doesn't make it accurate. Neither does it mean that if you address "X" the way he wants you to will it help.

Hey... .how are YOU holding up not having any sex with him for that long, and so much of it being awful/traumatic before that, with all the really good sex a distant memory?

[formflier]

I have evolved into one of those opposites (from the norm) of guys that want to talk and cuddle with a wife that wants to get down to it.

My P will sometimes chuckle at how I stand out from others in her practice.  Conflict seems to "up" my wife's hypersexuality, whereas it turns me off.

Very frustrating to be in a sexual relationship where the associated feelings can't be talked about... .

Hang in there!

   

FF

[SuperJew82]

I think most of us can say it was crazy hot at first... .then within months... .they were not in the mood at all. She even would claim I forced her to have sex - which is not true at all. Yes I would initiate it, but I'm not going to force anything. Recycles tend to hit the reset button and you get a reminder of the good times.

Mine would encourage BDSM stuff, which I was rather neutral with as long as it was light stuff. I just couldn't do the "play rape" thing that she suggested.

Sex lives with pwBPD are all over the place and never consistent.

[vortex of confusion]

It is very difficult to find candid discussions about sex, especially when it is the wife that is wanting some physical release/connection.

My ex was a sex addict (at least he said he was) and couldn't seem to get things going with ME. I tried to do some research on the subject and found information that was very disheartening because it all seemed to focus on the man without much consideration for the woman.

I heard that it was my fault for actually wanting to be with my husband. I told somebody that him looking at porn and pleasuring himself instead of being with me was very hurtful. I was told, "Oh, my husband did the same. I didn't care because that meant he left me alone."

Ex couldn't seem to understand that even if his equipment wasn't working, we could still cuddle and do other things that might help me get some satisfaction. That didn't happen. It all seemed to be focused on him and his problems. If I would ask for something or try to give any kind of direction, he would take it as criticism and it would stop any and all activity. I pretty much had to shut down my sexual desires and focus on him and him alone. It was very, very frustrating.

I was causing him anxiety because I wanted to try to talk about it and work it out. The only thing that didn't cause anxiety was for me to initiate, take care of him, and not give any kind of attention to what I wanted or needed. If I didn't indulge in his fantasies, things didn't work. The sex became very confusing and I found it very damaging to ME.

How are you feeling about it all? Put aside his anxiety for a second and let yourself be mad, sad, frustrated, or whatever it is that you are feeling.

[Cat Familiar]

Like so many others, our initial sex life was amazing, frequent and hot. Now it's non-existent.

I take responsibility for much of the downturn. I got really turned off by his alcohol abuse, his subsequent snoring, his late night insomnia. I remember having great sex, then him immediately jumping out of bed to down a glass of wine.

I didn't realize I was dealing with BPD; I thought it was merely alcohol abuse. I begged, pleaded, criticized, confronted him about his drinking, to no avail.

Then, as our romantic relationship deteriorated further, he told me that he "didn't trust" me, which really hurt me to the core. I'm a very trustworthy person and it took me a while to interpret that statement as part of the BPD pullback.

Anyway, we have different schedules, sleep in different areas now and mostly have a pleasant relationship. I'm an early riser. He is a night owl.

I can't really say that I miss the romantic relationship. It was too fraught.

[Lalathegreat]

Hmm, how am I doing with this... .not good. But at this point I am standing in the wreckage of this chaotic relationship and I feel like the flight commander in Apollo 13. "Let's approach this from the position of status, is there anything here that's good? Umm, let me get back to you on that... ."

The amazing sex is one more thing that is locked away in the memory vault that I now recognize as the honeymoon period. I feel extreme amounts of longing for "the way it was" and it's THAT pull that is keeping me from being able to walk away.

This aspect has been particularly damaging to my self esteem as I've always struggled with body confidence and self image. When we met I was training for a marathon, taking barre 3 days a week, and working with a trainer twice a week. I was in the best shape of my life. As my life has descended into chaos over the past 6 months, I have been unable to maintain the same commitment to myself and my training. Couple that with my impulse to bury every emotion under a carb and I've gained about 15 pounds. Even though I know that there is so much more at play, I find myself struggling to feel attractive given that my partner has so many issues performing with me and my impulse is to take that on... ."I'm getting too fat, he doesn't find me attractive anymore, etc etc"

He has been good about assuring me it isn't the weight gain or my body, but is all too happy to blame it on how I've displayed less attraction to him and caused him so much stress and anxiety. So even if I'm able to let go of the body image stuff I still obsess over how my behaviors were stress inducing.

So you know, just one more thing... .

[Grey Kitty]

It may be against cultural standards to say this, especially from your POV as a woman, but sex IS an important part of a romantic relationship, and if that part doesn't work, it is not unreasonable to consider yourself incompatible and end the relationship.

I mean it would be considered "normal" to end a r/s because one wanted kids and the other didn't. Or because you both had careers that prevented you from living near each other. You would be sad, could call it irreconcilable differences, end it, and move on.

If you accept that sex IS like this now, (even though it was so much better during the honeymoon period), you may have to choose to end it for that reason, and you are allowed to.

That said, if you can repair the rest of this relationship, the sex may recover. It is still your choice to keep trying or give up.

[DaddyBear77]

Then, as our romantic relationship deteriorated further, he told me that he "didn't trust" me, which really hurt me to the core. I'm a very trustworthy person and it took me a while to interpret that statement as part of the BPD pullback.

This is exactly the phase I'm currently in.

Before we entered the "I don't trust you" phase, we were in the "I won't have sex with you unless you come on to me", which was a lie, because I would "come on" daily, to which the excuses were never ending - "you don't mean it", "how could you find me attractive?", "If you had only asked earlier before I was too tired / too stressed / etc"

As of today, it's been over a year since we've had sex.

DB

[byfaith]

Sorry you are going through this

I can feel your frustration. My wife, for a whole boat load of reasons, does not have sex with me any longer. In the last 4 years we have had intercourse maybe 7 times. I called it intercourse because that's all it was.

I wish I had some advice for you. I just saw Grey Kitty's post as I was typing this one. I am in agreement with his point of view also.

I was hoping in my case to repair some other areas of our marriage and the sexual part would be healed but the road blocks in our way are not moving too well, actually not at all.

Yes it was amazing in the beginning. All I hope for now is that she would just at least have a connection with me and that is not happening.

Hang in there

[formflier]

Big picture (over several threads).  I would not recommend looking to him to validate YOUR feelings or provide effective (good) or even consistent feedback... .about anything.

In all honesty... .it's better to stop looking, asking, expecting. 

Sex happens to be a place where people like a lot of positive feedback... .very understandable.  Whatever you can do to get past that... will help stabilize your r/s.  Once stabilized, you may be able to start up again with some limited stuff.

Every once in a while my wife asks me "how are you doing?"  and it sounds honest... .  Shocked me at first.  No I am appreciative and respond.  I don't go overboard... but respond.

FF

[Notwendy]

One of the best books on this topic- not specific to BPD but to enmeshment and co-dependency ( the book uses the term differentiation to mean that) is Passionate Marriage. Although the title suggests some steamy content ( it does not disappoint) the main issue is relationships.

The best lines from this book to me were: We choose partners who match our level of differentiation, however, each partner thinks he or she is the most differentiated of the pair. Differentiation in this case means- less enmeshed, less co-dependent. Basically, each person thinks the other one has more of the problem, but actually, they match.

Enmeshment dampens passion. In the beginning of a BPD relationship- like many relationships, the other is an unknown. Most relationships start off with passion and some lust and in all of them, this tends to wear off over time. Emotionally healthy people build on this- through communication, working out issues and a commitment to keep passion in the marriage. This is hard to do in a dysfunctional marriage.

But I stand with GK here in that, every relationship has a bottom line- the deal breaker upon which the relationship is unsustainable. This can vary from couple to couple. In every relationship there are times when sex isn't possible- someone may have the flu or be deployed in the armed forces. However, when it is possible but a partner refuses on a long term basis ( every one has those days where they had a long day at work, aren't up to is- but long term- and years is long term) could be seen as selfish and hurtful in a committed monogamous relationship. Personally, if someone wants to be celibate- that is their choice, but expecting that of someone else- who didn't make that choice isn't fair. But it is up to the person being in that relationship to decide if that is a deal breaker or not.

[Notwendy]

I wanted to add that many posters are not up to making this a deal breaker. There are helpful suggestions in the book. They parallel the advice on this board- become more differentiated- less enmeshed. In the beginning, you probably didn't walk on eggshells- had more self confidence. That is attractive. Over time, that has changed. The way to bring passion back, according to the book- is to work at being more who you are. This can take time and work- but what an incentive.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, as Notwendy said, I'm not suggesting that this is or should be a deal breaker. Everybody has to decide what their own limits are. Only you can say whether it is one for you.

I do want to say that if it is a deal breaker for you, Lalathegreat, or anybody else in a similar situation reading this topic, please don't think that it means there is something wrong with you for needing or wanting sex. It is part of being human!

[vortex of confusion]

This aspect has been particularly damaging to my self esteem as I've always struggled with body confidence and self image.

I wanted to address this specifically because I think it is something that isn't given enough attention. At least that is how I felt. I felt like everything was so focused on ex and his problems that I was not being validated. My struggles were ignored. Feeling sexually rejected was very, very difficult for me. What compounded it was the fact that I couldn't talk to ex about it. Really, I don't feel like I had any safe place to discuss it. When I would try to discuss it with ex, that would compound that problem. And, it was a great opportunity for him to dismiss the fact that I was feeling hurt and rejected. I wasn't supposed to feel hurt or rejected because I wasn't the one with the problem. My hurt and rejection were routinely dismissed and that turned into resentment and anger.

Is there any way that you can validate your feelings without going to him?

I still obsess over how my behaviors were stress inducing.

I did the same thing until I completely shut down and pretty much zoned out to be physical with him. All that did was stress ME out further. One wrong move or one wrong word on my part and things would deflate instantly. There were times when I wasn't even sure what it was that I said or did. It was the ultimate in walking on eggshells.

Ultimately, you have to figure out what it is that you want and what it is that you can take.

[apollotech]

HI Lala,

I just have a few questions. What do you think that he is talking about/referring to regarding his "anxiety", which, according to him, you're causing? What has changed, if anything from your perspective, to cause his newly found anxiety (keeping in mind that if he is a pwBPD that the "change" could be imagined or may just now be becoming an issue, such as intimacy for example)?

[Lalathegreat]

Hi Apollo! I think pwBPD has always struggled to some extent with anxiety, and our relationship has had a clear "push/pull" cycle since about the 4th month (we've been together almost a year), although it seemed more "pull" than "push" and there were longer periods of relative peace between conflicts.  It really began to escalate around the time that his job situation started to fall apart. (This was due to him having a verbal conflict with a female coworker, being placed on supervision and then being unable to comply with the terms of that supervision. Essentially he was chronically late and took a lot of sick days.) When it became clear that he was going to lose his job he became a complete train smash. Logically I am well aware that his anxiety and stress is caused by HIS behaviors (his extremely volatile job history existed long before our relationship for example), however - in many arguments he has blamed the stress of my expectations on him to be the reason that he was anxious and therefore the reason that he was unable to function at his job.

The intimacy fell apart somewhere in the middle of all that crap and the one conversation we had about it specifically centered on how he wasn't functioning anymore because of me. I think it's more of a "big picture" issue having to do with the culmination of relationship stress and work stress.

[apollotech]

The intimacy fell apart somewhere in the middle of all that crap and the one conversation we had about it specifically centered on how he wasn't functioning anymore because of me. I think it's more of a "big picture" issue having to do with the culmination of relationship stress and work stress.

HI Lala,

Thank you for your response. That's good that you recognize that his anxiety issues are a result of his behaviors/choices rather than a result of something that you're doing or not doing. I think in general when a pwBPD is involved in a relationship, intimacy eventually presents Engulfment issues for them; as a result, they push away and blame the Non for the dysregulation. From what you have said, he is placing the blame squarely on you. I know how that feels, my ex was a pro at it. It took me awhile to understand what was causing her issues in the bedroom, intimacy, she could no longer handle it after the idealization stage ended. She could do sex, no problem, but anything that was done tenderly which entailed closeness, well, not good. I think that's a fairly common feature in many BPD relationships. Unfortunately, I was just learning about BPD while exiting the relationship. I would certainly put some thought into whether or not the employment/relationship stress is driving his anxiety/performance issues or rather his possible Engulfment issues are driving the anxiety/performance issues.

[Lalathegreat]

Something interesting occurs to me reading your post Apollo - the "loving" intimacy versus "just sex". I was thinking about this today actually. He has almost completely stopped kissing me. The obligatory peck as greeting or whatever. But really KISSING, especially during sex... .nope.

I think you might have hit a nail on the head that I had not seen yet. The gentle, loving sex stopped long before ___ing did. Engulfment... .probably!

[formflier]

Something interesting occurs to me reading your post Apollo - the "loving" intimacy versus "just sex". He has almost completely stopped kissing me. The obligatory peck as greeting or whatever. But really KISSING, especially during sex... .nope.

 

Yep... .same here.

We are about 80% no kissing... .especially if I try to initiate it.  "out of nowhere" she will want lots of deep kissing in sex... .about 20% of the time.  Asking about it... .no allowed. 

Sigh...

FF

[empath]

The lack of intimacy during sex was the most harmful aspect of it for me. It was slowly killing our relationship and made it very easy to eventually say no to that for an undetermined amount of time. My husband would complain about his lack of performance and how he 'had' to do all these things just to have sex with me. It was 'awful' for him. He said he couldn't trust me; he didn't want to meet my needs. I was either frigid or oversexed - sometimes in the same conversation. He would always want to be as far away from me as possible and to try all kinds of things that would 'help' him get more excited. 

I would end up crying a lot afterward.

It's been a little over 2 years since we've had sex... .  He was still pressuring me about it for about a year and a half.


I've read Passionate Marriage, too; it helped me to recognize that there was no connection coming from him. It was very functional.

[Cat Familiar]

I saw two sides of my husband with sex. If he wasn't drinking, he'd be really emotionally open, then he'd come really quickly. Usually after that he'd want to jump out of bed and have a glass of wine.

Other times if he'd had several glasses of wine, he'd be more machine-like and wouldn't be able to get off.

Frankly, I much preferred the first to the second. He always left me satisfied even if he didn't last long. But the machine-guy was really creepy and I didn't like that at all--and it became very uncomfortable.

So for now, I'm happy being celibate.

[apollotech]

I think you might have hit a nail on the head that I had not seen yet. The gentle, loving sex stopped long before please reading did. Engulfment... .probably!

Hi Lala,

Yep, ^^^^ I think that those instances have to be separated when discussing bedroom activities regarding a pwBPD, sex and intimacy. Sex is, to use the word of another poster on this thread, "functional." Intimacy is personal, and has to be given and received by one freely. Intimacy is the sharing of one's self, while sex, when reduced to the basest level, is simply the sharing of one's body (I undetstand that with a "normal" person, this too would be an intimate act because he/she will be sharing his/her body with very few individuals during his/her lifetime; therefore, by default, the sharing of one's body is an intimate act.).

[AustenJ]

The sex was hot, intimate and frequent throughout our 5 months together, but largely that was due to me and my experience in the bedroom... .she was young and really only wanted intercourse in her one position... .she had never really experienced the loving, intimate foreplay that I initiated. She had a lot of hang-ups sexually, which may go back to her childhood abuse issues, even though she says she was never abused. She never vocalized to me that she had rape fantasies, but she liked it really rough and liked really hard spanking. She did say that she was gang-raped in college. She did not like giving or receiving oral sex, and she never achieved orgasm during intercourse. In fact, she always wanted the man to achieve orgasm first and her orgasm was not important... .ever... .I was very old school in that it was always ladies first... .She could only give herself an orgasm through manual stimulation which before me was done alone and shamefully, on her stomach and through a sheet or towel, no direct touching. One of my greatest joys was being able to help her with this process, help her enjoy it, and allow her to feel less shame. Early on in the relationship she would tease and then in a babyish tone ask me to stop... .which I always did... .then when I was leaving, she would jump my bones and we would have wild sex on the stairs... .other times we would be into it and ready to go again and she would get that far off look in her eyes and just state that "she was done" whether I had finished or not... .

I think she learned a lot about my kind of love and intimacy, which as with most borderlines eventually pushes them away and they discard you. Guys her age, I'm sure, loved the sex, because she always wanted them to orgasm inside of her quickly and they never had to worry about taking care of her... .which most guys her age are selfish about anyway, but to have a beautiful, sexy, woman tell you that had to be every guy's dream... .except for mine.