How do I deal with things like this?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Ok, so I've almost gotten through this twice, before my clumsy fingers hit refresh and I lose it.  Im going to try and keep it simple.

I've been good on the LC/NC thing.  I don't contact her, unless I need to. We have bills, shared apt., cats.  When we do talk, I'm detached, and validating, keeping it on track and short.  She has been gone about a month and a half since caught her in a lie/cheating.  And I'm as through as much of the reactions and emotions as I can be.  I'm in a relatively good place. 

She called yesterday, asking that we talk about what we are doing. As in what? So I asked after taking a breath. I know very little about what she is doing and where because that's best. For all I know she is still seeing the replacement, and doing ok.  But when she talks to me, it's usually distressed and upset, talking about all she does is go to work and come home.  She did come over late on New Years, drunk and distressed. Had two rages with physical pushing and yelling, which I took to be her testing and pushing/pulling. She stayed the whole day, hung over, sleeping and letting me tend to her, asking food, soothing etc.   I could see what it was and was as fine as I could be.  It was a good way to practice detachment with compassion.

Anyway, back to the call. She was trying to figure out what we were doing, shared property etc.  but 30 seconds in, she says, "I really don't like you talking to people about her drinking and it being an issue in our relationship." Now I have been consistent about this to her and others for a long time.  She isn't an everyday drunk, she goes on and says, that her friends are ok with it, why shouldn't I?

Well in my mind, "YOUR FRIENDS DONT GET BLACKOUT DRUNK AND BERATE ME, AND THEN HIT ME".  But I can't do that.  I simply say, "you should understand the difference". And her friends are in some cases the ones that mention it.  I know that she's filtering it. And then she changes gears. She thinks she is best off "alone" and that kind of talk.  She feels that if she just keeps moving, it will all disappear, but at that point the conversation ends, she has to go.

I'm left with questions. Are we going to work on this at all? Is this separation final?  Is she is still seeing this guy, or is she really "alone".
Oh yeah the bills... .never even touched on.

I paid the cable and rent last month on my own, she said she would take care of the gas and electric.  Usually I give her my end and she pays them.  I saw this early on as giving her a sense of independence and it's easier that discussing bills with her (impossible task). So today, I look at the bills, cable is month behind, gas bill is a THOUSAND dollars... .electric I don't have.  I take care of the other stuff, so I'm not worried.   Thousand dollars?  Wtf?

How am I going to sit down with her, when she will clearly just deflect and pass it off?  I mean they are in her name so... .  I'm good if I want to be a dick.  But I can't.  Is this part of why she ran off?

Secondary to this.   Today she texts me, "would it be too much to bring her bike to her work".  F**k me, the wording alone.   She's been gone a month, and now she needs her bike?

It's taken me all day to calm down and have no reply as yet.  If i react, she wins, and if I get her bike to her, she wins.

I need you guys to ask me questions, because I simply can't get my head around this. If we had kids? A mortgage,   And to think I want to make this work with her?

Where did that money go?   

[ynwa]

Ok, so I've almost gotten through this twice, before my clumsy fingers hit refresh and I lose it.  Im going to try and keep it simple.

I've been good on the LC/NC thing.  I don't contact her, unless I need to. We have bills, shared apt., cats.  When we do talk, I'm detached, and validating, keeping it on track and short.  She has been gone about a month and a half since caught her in a lie/cheating.  And I'm as through as much of the reactions and emotions as I can be.  I'm in a relatively good place. 

She called yesterday, asking that we talk about what we are doing. As in what? So I asked after taking a breath. I know very little about what she is doing and where because that's best. For all I know she is still seeing the replacement, and doing ok.  But when she talks to me, it's usually distressed and upset, talking about all she does is go to work and come home.  She did come over late on New Years, drunk and distressed. Had two rages with physical pushing and yelling, which I took to be her testing and pushing/pulling. She stayed the whole day, hung over, sleeping and letting me tend to her, asking food, soothing etc.   I could see what it was and was as fine as I could be.  It was a good way to practice detachment with compassion.

Anyway, back to the call. She was trying to figure out what we were doing, shared property etc.  but 30 seconds in, she says, "I really don't like you talking to people about her drinking and it being an issue in our relationship." Now I have been consistent about this to her and others for a long time.  She isn't an everyday drunk, she goes on and says, that her friends are ok with it, why shouldn't I?

Well in my mind, "YOUR FRIENDS DONT GET BLACKOUT DRUNK AND BERATE ME, AND THEN HIT ME".  But I can't do that.  I simply say, "you should understand the difference". And her friends are in some cases the ones that mention it.  I know that she's filtering it. And then she changes gears. She thinks she is best off "alone" and that kind of talk.  She feels that if she just keeps moving, it will all disappear, but at that point the conversation ends, she has to go.

I'm left with questions. Are we going to work on this at all? Is this separation final?  Is she is still seeing this guy, or is she really "alone".
Oh yeah the bills... .never even touched on.

I paid the cable and rent last month on my own, she said she would take care of the gas and electric.  Usually I give her my end and she pays them.  I saw this early on as giving her a sense of independence and it's easier that discussing bills with her (impossible task). So today, I look at the bills, cable is month behind, gas bill is a THOUSAND dollars... .electric I don't have.  I take care of the other stuff, so I'm not worried.   Thousand dollars?  Wtf?

How am I going to sit down with her, when she will clearly just deflect and pass it off?  I mean they are in her name so... .  I'm good if I want to be a dick.  But I can't.  Is this part of why she ran off?

Secondary to this.   Today she texts me, "would it be too much to bring her bike to her work".  F**k me, the wording alone.   She's been gone a month, and now she needs her bike?

It's taken me all day to calm down and have no reply as yet.  If i react, she wins, and if I get her bike to her, she wins.

I need you guys to ask me questions, because I simply can't get my head around this. If we had kids? A mortgage,   And to think I want to make this work with her?

Where did that money go?   

[ynwa]

To put it simply, I can't tell what is happening is because of her traits or what.

I can't talk to her and discuss things.  She always told me she was "handling the bills".  That she would do fine without me. Everything gets let unresolved and she either can't or won't accept her part in it. 

Every answer is partially true but ambiguous.  And I'm afraid of getting angry and yelling, which means I have to back off. 

[formflier]

How am I going to sit down with her, when she will clearly just deflect and pass it off?  I mean they are in her name so... .  I'm good if I want to be a dick.  But I can't.  Is this part of why she ran off?
 

Don't worry about being a tool.  Focus on letting her make her own financial decisions.  If she is distressed... .express confidence in her ability to sort out her financial decisions.

How much $$ are you giving and when?  For what purpose?

FF

[ynwa]

In general I give her half of the money for the cable, and utilities, and rent.  It was a bit daft of me to give her the responsibility but it made sense at the time. 
I work in a different state so I keep my work licenses at the same address, so I never used this address.  It never seemed a big deal.  Lesson learned.

How do I validate this? How I stay calm detached, and compassionate?  I can't just hand this off to her BPD traits. I'm so angry right now, I can't even go into details. 

But I have to handle this, I can't let this go on.  I feel like I need to handle the relationship and money conversations be separate issues.   That's all I got for now.

[formflier]

YNWA,

Take big breath... .if there is a chance to delay action/decision for a few days... .I think there are some critical concepts for you to understand and think deeply about.

Boundaries:  Boundaries go both ways.  You are responsible for not letting others control your things inside of your boundaries.  You are responsible for not attempting to control things outside of your boundaries and inside the boundaries of others.

Do you understand that concept?  

So... lets say you have a friend that is an adult.  Your friend loves Captain Crunch cereal.  Your friend "always" forgets to get Captain Crunch cereal when they go to the store... .but they remember to get booze, tobacco products and a gossip magazine.  

You like your friend... .you stop by every couple days and your friend "always" is complaining about not having Captain Crunch.  You are an awesome guy... .you drive by the store every day... .so... it's no skin off your back to stop in the store and pick up Captain Crunch... .plus... you like it too... .so sometimes you have an extra box in your car... which you happily share with your friend.

After all... .we've been taught that sharing is good... .right?

Then... .one day... .you see an interesting book at the library and get it... .

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484313690&sr=1-1&keywords=boundaries

Then... .you begin to wonder if you are trying to control a part of another adults life that you shouldn't be.  Perhaps it is unhealthy for him and for you.  

After all... .aren't adults responsible for deciding how to spend their money at the grocery store?  Aren't they responsible for figuring out how to remember what they want to get?

Boy... .now you start to feel bad that you have been denying another adult the chance to mature!

So... .you stop by your friends place... .and gues what?... ."I forgot to get my Captain Crunch... ."     Holy dilemmas Batman... . You know have knowledge and values that are in conflict with emotions... .all of this is bouncing around inside your head... .you feel your head about to explode... . Your inner monologue says  "I'll just give him one more box... ."

In an act of desperation you flip on the bpdfamily "Bat Signal"... .your phone beeps and you see a link to the lessons... .specifically about how to "SET".

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0



This time you say  ":)ude... .I can't believe it... .I know how much you like Captain Crunch.  I can taste it right now.  I'm confident you'll figure this out.  After all... .the store is not very far from here... ."  (hows that for a SET?)

your friend says... ."What?... .how can you insult me like that?  You've never liked me anyway... .that Captain Crunch has made your A$$ fat and if you don't go get me some right now I'm going to show everyone at your church the email I read on your phone (and I forwarded to my account) where you admitted to eating Raisin Bran last week... .you are such a sick pervert... .I can't believe you could do that... "

Your phone beeps again... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0


So... .how does the Captain Crunch story apply to your decision to intervene in your pwBPDs decisions about spending?

 

But I have to handle this, I can't let this go on.  I feel like I need to handle the relationship and money conversations be separate issues.    

Take a deep breath...

Can you write a paragraph or two about "why this can't go on"?

Any doubt what I'm eating as I write this... .and drink my coffee?    

Anything else makes someone a perv... .

FF

[ynwa]

Boundaries make sense.  I have made mine as I can.  I even changed her text and ring tones so that I can negate the trained response. Not feeling responsible for her and her actions is a work in progress.  I've read the Dear and Set pieces before, read some before replying and will read again.  In my own way, I have been doing this all along.  But past mistakes can't be revisited.

In any case, I'm going to eat Frosted Flakes when I'm done with this.

1. The bills
2. The relationship and is it even there.

All along in our relationship there have been trying moments with her and finances.  I gave it to her just being a bit lazy and irresponsible. But as time went on, it was harder and harder to discuss things. Cable/internet went off a few times, and in different ways, I tried to talk to her about it.  I'd given her the money, she should have paid them.  We have been consistently one month behind for awhile, and that conversation about how billing works, was the last time I got involved.  It's her responsibility, if it gets shut off, I'll pay it, and not be too hard on her.  But to the present issue. 

Last month, I just told her I wrote the check for the rent and gave her the money for the cable. The utilities, (so I thought) were minor and she would get back to me on them.  Seeing the 1000 dollar balance on the gas bill up has changed that.

1. The bills are in her name.  Once I switch the lease, I get all new bills in my name.  Her debt is hers.  But that isn't just a box of captain crunch.
2. I do most of 1. but "help her as possible" to get out of debt.
3.im out of work 5-6 months with this shoulder injury.  I can manage the bills, but barely, and I can't support her as well.

I can easily just leave the money at her work, and trust that she will pay the bills.
i am going to pay the rent myself and pay the full cable bill for the month, not the past due. Which leaves me with the utilities bill.  I have no doubt she has credit card debt, she has a defaulted student loan, and has a bill for orthodontic work she had done, that was "all paid for already", but isn't.  She made that decision on her own and without regard to my input.

How do I sit with here and explain this reality.  It will just open a torrent of her insecurities and defenses. it ties into the relationship, because I don't know if this how I want to live my life.  i will get into the relationship after Frosted Flakes,

[formflier]

Again... .if anyway possible... .delay doing anything for a few days. 

Why are you giving her money for bills anyway?  How did that agreement get made?  If she is the one living there and "spending" the gas and electric... .etc etc... .help me understand how you are paying for it.

There may be a good and healthy reason for it... .this is an area to be clear on.


This is me "reflecting back" what I think I am reading in your post.  Let me know if this is what you meant to communicate.

What I heard is "OK... .I get your point.  Once I handle the "bill issue"... .then I'll work on this boundary thing... ."

Did I interpret correctly?

FF

[formflier]

Since I have no idea what timeline you are dealing with... .I offer the following advice... .at a minimum

1.  Never again give her money and expect her to be responsible about where it goes.


Ok... perhaps never again is a bit much, but unless she gets into treatment, dramatic changes are made and her T (at the time) advises your giving her money is a healthy thing for her recovery... .don't do it.

 

FF

[Fian]

I am trying to understand the situation.
  1.  Are you living under the same roof, and that is why you have shared bills?
  2.  If not, do you have any moral obligation to give her money to pay her own bills?  Why isn't she paying all of them?

[ynwa]

Hey Fian,

We lived together until about a month or so ago, when I caught her in a lie cheating. She has not lived here since.

When we moved in together I didn't think it a big deal to have my name on the bills. I work in a different state and kept my old address to keep my work licenses from needing to be changed and the tax rate is more favorable. As is the unemployment as I get laid off in winter for a couple months.  We had talked about saving for a few months, so we would be in a better place, and my car was about to die and I'd be needing to buy a new one.  She had a tiny apartment and we clear,y could not live in it together.  I thought we were on the same page, but about a week later, she was seeing apartments, found this one, and signed the lease the same day (looking back, red flag).

We moved in together because it is a great apartment at a great rate.

[formflier]

 
Still confused... sorry.

If you physically live somewhere... then perhaps you should pay utiltiies.

If she doesn't live there... .then you shouldn't.

Whose name is on what.

What I think I read.  You live in an apartment that is not in your name and you are not on the utilities.  You have been giving her money to pay those things... .and she has not.  Do I have this correct?

She does NOT live where you live.

You name is on none of this... .right?

 

FF

[ynwa]

What I heard is "OK... .I get your point.  Once I handle the "bill issue"... .then I'll work on this boundary thing... ."

Did I interpret correctly?

FF

Yes you did.  The bills are in her name because I'm stupid, and will not make that mistake again.  I cannot put the bills in my name until I am on the lease.  They will be new accounts, not connected to her.  I have to keep the peace with her until I know I can switch the lease (have to contact the landlord).

We had cut all the rent, utilities, cable in half and I would write a check for half the rent, give her cash for the rest.

The bills she has not paid, are my moral responsibility not legal. The cable I am paying in full to her, and the rent I'm paying directly to landlord. I figure the more they see payment from me alone, the easier it will be to assume the lease.

The gas can't be shut off, but the 1000 dollar debt is hers until she brings it up to me. (Sound good?). The electric I am going to say to her is storage of her things and cat until she can move them out. (Also sound good?). She is on a student plan, and it should be minimal.  I can handle all the bills on my own, as I was taking care of most of the other expenses anyway.  I have more in my bank account now being OFF work than I did when she was around. (Silver lining)

I have never used credit cards as I budget and live within my means. Something that has always (obviously) been a challenge for her.  But I'm thinking of getting one for emergencies because again I face 5-6 months off work. My parents have also offered to back me, and while I've never needed it, now might be the time.

I may sound like I'm out of control, but that is merely the relationship side of things.  It's a gaping mess where I thought I had time to work on it.  I didn't learn about BPD as a way of understanding her traits and immaturity until too late.

In these last 10 minutes, I'm ok with just letting the relationship go away.  I will deal with it here in the boards, but it is separate from making sure my living and financial arrangements are secure.  It's going to be scary going through this surgery living by myself and dealing with the recovery.  I thought I had a partner in that and I was mistaken.  I don't want to let her go, but I'm not ok.  I'm not over her hurting me, and using me to make herself feel better.

I will work on boundaries. I will work on myself. And making less long winded posts.

[formflier]

OK... .this is a bit more clear.  I am very concerned about people involved in a BPD relationship paying for things that are NOT their legal responsibility.

I understand that you believe they are your moral responsibility... .and perhaps they are. 

Word of caution:  being in a r/s with a pwBPD can take your brain, sense of morals and just about everything else... .and blend them at high speed until you have no idea what is going on. 

Clarity:  I'm not saying you are right or wrong to pay these things.  I am saying that it is still not clear to me that you should, and I still advise waiting as long as possible to let us help you sort this out.

Questions:

You pack up and find a place that you can afford... .is in your name... .utilities and all... .what is "wrong" with that?  Is that possible?

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting you should do this, but it should be evaluated. 

Where is your pwBPD living?  How long since she has physically been to the apartment you are now living in? 

When is the next time you would expect or she would expect you to pay her any amount of money.

For sure... .for absolute sure I don't think you give her any money  If a bill needs to be paid, pay it directly, get receipt... .keep it... .

Especially since there is seasonal unemployment... .I am concerned that you manage your money well for YOU.  Leave her "best interests" out of it. 

Just because you CAN help and send her money... .doesn't mean you SHOULD.

   Hang in there man! 

FF

[ynwa]

I am keeping the apartment, I can afford it.  I have to go through her for the cable, because i do not want access to her account.  I am paying all the bills because she is not living here.  The exception is the electric, which is fair for storage of her belongings, and her cat. It's 30 bucks because she has a grandfathered student plan.  Thats fair.   Once, the lease is settled I will transfer to new accounts in my name. I will not be in debt. She will be.

I'm feeling that as it stands she has ended the relationship and moved out.  She is living with a friend she met at work. She has been there since the 1st of December. Someone who conveniently does not know her history.  Her debt is hers, credit cards, doctors etc.   I'm not going to help with that, unless we are back in the relationship, which we are not.

The gas bill, is her issue.  She didn't pay it, has never mentioned it and is not my deal.  I paid half of what she asked.  Period. Right now, I'm not going to mention it.  I'm going to not contact her, until I drop the money for the cable.  After this month , meaning in February, I will reassess.

She was here on New Years Night, very drunk and dysregulated.  I have posted on it, and frankly it was a great snapshot of my relationship dynamic and the future with her unless she seeks help.

I do have boundaries on that. Remember my horribly written email to her? Still unanswered.   

Relationship wise.  I will go NC, and let her contact me.  I've done enough, and it's showing me that I cannot keep chasing the foxtailed BPD. 

As for changing places to live,  the rent is great.  The place is ideal as I can walk to the stores and be close to my friends.  That I will be in a shoulder brace for a month or two will be challenging, but not impossible.

[ynwa]

After spending a few days thinking and reflecting, I'm sticking to my guns.

I'm dropping off the money needed to pay the cable at her work. She won't be there.  A quick text to ask to pay it.   She had asked a few days ago for me to bring her bike to her work, but I just don't feel like i should.  I've done enough, and it crosses over into what I am comfortable with.

I can't expect anything more from her. I will get no real answers. There is no point for me talk about the relationship. From what I see, it's over. Anything I do from my endnat this point is just bargaining and will get shifted into whatever thinking is working for her that day.