Going to counseling and fighting with my uBPDw - I

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

If she stands by her promises ( she has made them previously) that she will just "walk away" (with nothing) then her character wins out over her BPD traits. And she has my respect back. IF she doesn't, its ON. The marriage is over and its war.

Please talk with your counsel about this plan.  At first glance, it appears that your plan could represent some black and white thinking.

If your goal is to "win"... .then it is likely that this thing will cause a blowup.  If your goal is to "cut a deal" that you can live with, then there is hope of getting a post nup.

You should have clearly defined non-negotiables... .but there needs to be several areas you can be flexible in.

Thoughts? 

FF

[formflier]

If she stands by her promises ( she has made them previously) that she will just "walk away" (with nothing) then her character wins out over her BPD traits. And she has my respect back. IF she doesn't, its ON. The marriage is over and its war.

Please talk with your counsel about this plan.  At first glance, it appears that your plan could represent some black and white thinking.

If your goal is to "win"... .then it is likely that this thing will cause a blowup.  If your goal is to "cut a deal" that you can live with, then there is hope of getting a post nup.

You should have clearly defined non-negotiables... .but there needs to be several areas you can be flexible in.

Thoughts? 

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey michel71, I have to chuckle at your subject line, not at you, but for the predicament you find yourself in by going to see a T w/your uBPDw.  No need to say the dreaded initials, BPD.  If your T is good, he/she will pick up on it by him/herself.  In my case, I tried to express myself obliquely, through metaphors.  For example, I said that it feels like I am playing rock, paper, scissors in my interactions with my W and she always shoots scissors, so what's the point of shooting paper (which I viewed as comforting).  So, I said, I have to shoot scissors (hostile) or rock (unyielding).  I thought that made sense, but my W thought I was making a mockery of the counseling session.  Oh well, the T knew what I was talking about!

LuckyJim

[michel71]

Formfiler... .of course, you are right, I don't think I am going to get out of this one completely unscathed. I think I am going to have to pay her something to "buy my peace". I am prepared for the worse really. I don't think this is going to go smoothly. My uBPDw is very disordered and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Honestly I feel her loathing me the more time passes. Distance makes the heart grow colder... .

Lucky Jim... .the predicament is there and ridiculous. My uBPDw is not going to magically conform to the therapist's direction, reel herself in. She might put on a temperate show for awhile but her true nature will come out. So, yeah I agree with you there. Others have told me the same including my own therapist.

I had a blow out with my wife tonight and I will post about that separately but basically this time living apart has been great for us an individuals, no better for us as a couple since her resentments are off the charts, I am more black than ever. I can't figure if she is just biding time, getting a few more favors out of me before she calls it quits or is trying to control me by things like not wearing her wedding bands anymore just to see me upset.

Nobody in "Michel's corner" wants me to stay in this relationship. The total consensus is divorce. Deep down I know that is best I just have to let go of the fantasy. My therapist says that the real her was the one that is disordered and at the beginning she was pretending to be somebody else. My therapist says that I have to accept that and take my power back but also that my uBPDw has a tremendous negative energy hold of me. That could be a subject for a different post as well.

[michel71]

Hello all. I am reaching out to anybody who would like to weigh in on the supernatural side of things. My therapist is legit, very learned and has all the right initials behind her name, but also does energy work and considers herself to be an intuitive.

In describing that my uBPDw has this "hold" on me, that as much as I know that the relationship is unhealthy I continue to feel drawn to her, that I have no desire to ever be with another woman because I feel that I am still "hers", my therapist suggested that my uBPDw has a very negative energy hold on me. She told me that I have to take back my energy.

We all have energy. Our bodies are made up of energy. We can say even off handedly that a person has "bad energy" but when you look at that in the context of BPD characteristics it is even more frightening. They exhibit behaviors and seem to have all the "tools" to really get inside of us. I find my uBPDw to be very dark. I do feel that she has manipulated my energy and sucked the good out of it for her benefit, replacing it with her bad energy if that makes any sense.

Any thoughts about the supernatural component of BPD or other cluster B disorders?

[vortex of confusion]

I find this to be very interesting.

The other day, I found myself wondering how I became so negative. My whole life, I have been a very positive person. I have had people tell me that I have a lot of positive energy and am very approachable.

In thinking about how I became so negative, I came to the conclusion that ex sucked the life out of me. It was like he took all of my positive energy for himself and left nothing for me. The longer he is out of the house, the more positive the energy in the house becomes. When he comes over to visit the kids, you can feel his negative energy and it feels like just his presence sucks the air out of the room.

The energy explanation makes a lot of sense and would explain why it becomes so difficult to let go and see things more clearly. Their negative energy pervades everything after a while.

I have seen the same sort of phenomena with a few other people that I know that have cluster B type stuff. There is just something about their aura that is so off putting and negative even when they are being nice.

[michel71]

Hello all. So much of the advice here is to "stay in reality"... .look at the the situation for what it is, not what you hoped it would be.

Why is it so hard? Why do we constantly want to hold onto hope of returning to white? Why do we sometimes forget that our loved one has BPD?

This is my biggest hurdle right now... .staying in reality. Is it just an issue of my heart not catching up with my head?

[SamwizeGamgee]

I feel a bit bad about this, but, I remind myself to quell all optimism in my marriage. 
It is what it is, and I can only change me.

[SamwizeGamgee]

You know, I hadn't thought of this topic as supernatural at all.  I have a long and deep affection for Asian philosophy and especially the martial arts.  I assume it to be true that we all have an energy, or Qi.  I sense my wife with a negative aura and know the room changes when she enters.  Conflict is quick and easy, health and strength go away.  Weird now that I'm typing it, but, I have explained it to myself that she has dark energy.  Hardly something I would put into a legal document or police report though. 
I do find it humorous when you describe pwBPD as an energy vampire. Now I have a new visual to brighten my day.  I wish there was an energy wooden-stake or holy water for such an event. 

[Notwendy]

I can relate to this- but an interesting idea is- is it them or us? Maybe both.


If we have poor boundaries, we can sense someone else's feelings and even not be able to tell which is them and which is us. Someone with stronger boundaries can be in the presence of someone who may be upset, but not be upset themselves.

Are we walking on eggshells- even not being conscious of it? That can be mentally and emotionally tiring.

Are we constantly having our boundaries tested- that is them- that can be emotionally tiring.

I do believe that some people take more emotional energy than others. I have at times noticed that I feel emotionally drained after being with some people. Drama and dysfunction is tiring. Dysfunctional people seem to like drama, and drama takes energy.

That said, I do believe that some people are draining, and even toxic to be around. I am however much better at being present if my H is upset without feeling affected by it. I hope that is better boundaries.

BPD being on a spectrum, would also put individuals on this spectrum of how emotionally draining they can be.

[ACObound]

I also find everybody's post on this very interesting.  I have spoken may times on these boards I "discovered" BPD only recently despite a 35+ year marriage with my uBPDw.   I find that I have mirrored the the negativity.  Probably thinking that I could "get on her good side" (as weird as that sounds) by joining in.  Like vortex, I wonder when this happened, when it started.  Like others experience, conflict is quick, easy and often.    Notwendy has some good points and is where I am having an extremely hard time.  I have know this person for 40 years.  I know there are some good things, and when see those painful eyes seemingly begging me for help... .Is it possible that she is low enough on the BPD spectrum, that utilizing relatively new tools(boundaries) and research I have done, that there is a pathway to reconnect?(in some fashion) . 
so notwendy... .how long did id take take you to remain present and not be affected being upset when your BPD partner is upset.


 

[michel71]

I just wanted to clarify that I don't think my spouse is EVIL. Just some darkness probably linked to her inability to regulate her emotions and some very deep pain. The anger is dark too. But not in a satanic way or anything, just disordered.

[Cipher13]

I do not really have any sort of answer to your question because I to have to work so extra hard to try to hold onto whatever seems to resemble reality. I think that the longer we stay in a relationship like this the more likely we will lose our holds on what we know to be reality.
After taking on enough verbal abuse and word twisting I can be made to feel bad for having an opinion that differs or merely questions her on why she believes a certain way about something. For example right now she is angry with me for asking why she ate lunch so late? ultimately she explained it and I said I understand. But now your would have thought I was mean and cruel for yelling at her about her eating. Any outsider would think this an non issue. But I am mad to feel guilt for an attack that never took place. And I do. I feel like it attacked her and made her feel like she had to defend herself. But the reality is nothing could be further from the truth.

[Tattered Heart]

I do not believe in energy healing that comes from a source that is not God because I'm a Christian and that falls into occult type belief systems, BUT I do believe in things like demons and demonic influence. So I think this kind of falls into line with this topic.

The Bible has many examples of times when Jesus and his disciples used their God given authority over demons. The Bible says that as a Christian, we have the same authority as Jesus and can do many of the same things Jesus did. So, when my H begins to dysregulate, when he is in another room, I will pray and ask God to quiet the demons that are harassing him. Usually within a minute or two the intensity decreases.

Most recently though, we moved into a new house. I felt like God wanted me to go through each room of the house and bless it. I went through every room and closet and cubby hole. I prayed that God will remove any demonic influence and that the Holy Spirit would fill the house with peace and patience and kindness. Since that time my husband has not dysregulated once. He has started to, but then he regains his composure. I know a part of it is that I've been using the tools better, but I also think that God really is changing things. He has also received some big "aha" moments for himself. He is actually looking at his emotions and accepting responsibility for some of them. He is seeing how his emotions are affecting him and me negatively. Last week he even had a HUGE revelation and realized that he can be mad at people but not be mean! He seriously had no idea that being mad without mean was even possible! I truly believe these changes have a lot to do with the house blessing.

[HappyChappy]

Interesting topic,

The vampire analogy really does fit the BPD model so well, I wonder if it came from observing such behaviour. They want virgins – meaning someone who isn’t aware of what they do. They want blood , symbolising emotion, because drinking emotion makes them stronger and us weaker. They fear the cross, could this mean that they believe they are superior to those around, but the church punctures that belief, competes with that belief. "Have no other idols."

So my question to you is, as someone with a PD believes they are superior to mortals, and the environment around them is there to serve them, how can they believe in a higher power ? I can see how they may feel spiritual, but not religious. My BPD mom and her mom, both laboured their religious devotion, but by age 12 I knew the bible better than they did. The religious tapes my BPD pretended to be a fan of are still unopened in their cellophane wrapper.

I can see how someone with BPD could be spiritual, they run off feelings more than logic. Also we children of a BPD are very sensitive to others feelings, so again, our heightened intuition helps with spirituality. But can someone with a PD be truly be religious – I would value your opinion. 

[vortex of confusion]

I can see how someone with BPD could be spiritual, they run off feelings more than logic. Also we children of a BPD are very sensitive to others feelings, so again, our heightened intuition helps with spirituality. But can someone with a PD be truly be religious – I would value your opinion. 

This is an excellent question!

I think they can be religious but NOT spiritual. In my opinion, being spiritual means that you internalize things and are able to discern what makes sense and what doesn't.

To be religious, all you need to do is take the rules prescribed by your religion and follow them. Ex is really good at following rules without internalizing them or understanding them. If he was truly internalizing the teachings of his church, there is no way in heck he could behave the way he does. He can spout off stuff about the role of a father and a husband. He can talk about the church's teachings all day long but it seems like he is unable to put it into action on a personal level.

[Skip]

Yikes!

I'd like to pose the reflective question of why some find solace in words like vampire and malignant when discussing our partners (ex-partners) or parents?

I've never read these words in discussions about pedophiles, or rapists, or even terrorists and dictators. Just BPD and NPD.

Why? Is it healthy? Are there any implications with respect to the emotional maturity and coping skills of the users?

my therapist suggested that my uBPDw has a very negative energy hold on me. She told me that I have to take back my energy... .They exhibit behaviors and seem to have all the "tools" to really get inside of us.

I think what your therapists says makes sense. There is a self-destructive attraction that we can develop to a person and that they fulfill a need (I think this is the energy) that are willing to pay too much to hold onto. Breaking free from that, letting go of our unhealthy attraction, is sometimes described as getting our power back. Al-anon uses this terminology, too. It's about our self worth being tied up in the approval of another person.

Supernatural - of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially :  of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil?

Vampire -   the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood energy of persons asleep

I don't believe.

[michel71]

This thread is indeed provocative. I am glad that I made it. Personally speaking, I am a Christian so for me energy work and the positive supernatural always involves God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and angels at work. I don't reach out to the trees or mother earth. When I went around my house "cleansing" it I said prayers to God for strength and protection. I called upon my angels to watch over me. But that is just me and others on this Board are free to call upon whatever higher power they like or not.

I think it is about concentrating on the POSITIVE. Without a doubt, disordered by its very nature is not positive. I view it as negative because of the resulting pain but maybe there are those who might prefer to argue it is neutral.

Skip... ."vampire" and "malignant" and other words are used as metaphors. So many of us on here are hurting very badly so I think it is reasonable to assume that some of us will be angry as well. Yes some do feel victimized. We are where we find ourselves in this process. Healthy? Emotional maturity? Coping skills? Words of anger and condemnation are part of the process. Better out than in. If we keep our hard core dialog in then it turns to depression. I think it is cathartic. Is that the place that we want to stay? Ideally no.

The spiritual vs. religious question is interesting. My uBPDw is spiritual. Well, she calls herself that and does believe in God. She is limited however as her awareness of her actions are distorted. She honestly does not feel that she has mistreated me. Her reality is different. I don't know about other pwBPD. I suppose they could be one or the other or both ( spiritual/religious) but they have limited capacity to understand and translate deeper meanings and doctrine to themselves. That introspection, honest and real and based on a standard of a reasonable, prudent and sane person, will always be missing in a pwBPD.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to consider the supernatural realm in dealing with life. No matter how much we can intellectualize what it means to be BPD, to live with a BPD, to handle a BPD it still does not solve the heart problem and the way they have touched our souls in a very profound way.

[Skip]

I do feel that she has manipulated my energy and sucked the good out of it for her benefit, replacing it with her bad energy if that makes any sense.

When your therapists refers to getting your power back, he is telling you that she doesn't have power over you - you believe it - its not true. When you stop believing this, you will be empowered in your life.

He's talking about codependency in you. Not supernatural power in her.

I get that "vampire" is a metaphor. So is "the earth is a flat as a pancake". It's just not a metaphor that is helping you grasp your reality and it's certainly not a metaphor that aligns with getting your power back.

You have a therapist, a lawyer, a pastor, and a support group that will advise you on how to resolve this marriage and heal. My advice is to accept that mental illness or traits of mental illness is enough to describe her behavior and codependency is enough to describe yours and within this reality, you have a pretty short path to recovery if you embrace it.

Maybe running my challenge by your therapists and your pastor will help sort it out better. 

But is only advice - not debate. You, of course, are the ultimate judge of what to think and how to frame your reality. Whichever you choose, we will support you.

[michel71]

... .but aware nonetheless that this may be a slow, sad death... .

I have been in contact with my uBPDw since she moved out. She is doing quite well. Enjoys her place. Her daughter is happier and is "thriving" (acc'd to her) and "this move was really good for her" (well, that's good because it was always about her daughter anyway). I see the two of them really grooving in to a life obviously better without me. Last night she had friends over (used to be our friends) and they partied until the early hours of the morning. Life is moving on for her. I can see "us" in the rear view mirror, slipping further and further away.

It bothers me on many levels that I did everything for her and her daughter to try and make them happy. I gave until it hurt and was appreciated for NONE of it. They both treated my home like a flop house and garbage dump. Their new place, on the other hand, is orderly and clean. They actually take pride in where they live and my uBPDw is enforcing rules with her daughter that she never did with me. Just today, the kid left a bunch of change in her pocket that got washed. My uBPDw was quickly on her about it and said that the machine might break and it would cost a lot to replace it. She never ef'ing said that about my washing machine no matter how many times I mentioned that.

The flagrant disregard for my feelings and emotional and financial well-being was staggering and becomes even more illuminating by seeing how my uBPDw runs "her" house.

It occurred to me today that the more I gave and sacrificed and tried to get up after every BPD knock-down, the more my uBPDw disrespected me. Perhaps she never ever respected me and I lived in a delusion.

To be honest I am feeling like such a fool today. Any self respecting healthy person would have not taken such mistreatment for so long and simply called it quits. But no, I had to hang in there and keep hoping that this woman would start to respect me. Pathetic.

And I should just rip the bandaid off but I can't. Or won't. Because I don't want to feel the total pain of loss... .just a slow bleed.

[michel71]

Oh it makes me crazy! Get this. My uBPDw destroyed all our wedding photos and took great pains to remove any indication of her existence before she left. In her new place, she has no pictures of us, certainly no pictures of me, nor any indication of my existence. She no longer wears her wedding band. Deleted all evidence of me on FACEBOOK long ago even changing her name back to her former married name.

I am getting a roommate to help pay 'our' debts. She had the audacity to be upset and call it "poopy" ( you know the word) when she asked me if I told the new roommate about my situation about being separated from my wife and I said NO. Seriously? What?

OOH... .I get so frustrated!

Feel free to add your stories!

[heartandwhole]

And I should just rip the bandaid off but I can't. Or won't. Because I don't want to feel the total pain of loss... .just a slow bleed.

This is some real honesty here, michel71. I'm sorry that you feel foolish. In your shoes, I'd feel very hurt, angry, and foolish, too. 

It sounds like you are putting energy into paying attention to what she's doing. It happens. What's going on with you, though—how are you taking care of yourself while you grapple with this big change? Is there one step you can take for YOU that will make you feel better about yourself and has nothing to do with this relationship?

heartandwhole

[Faith_88]

Hi Michel71

I'm new here but I just wanted to say never feel foolish for trying to help someone you loved. The very heart of love is charity & sacrifice (of course, some levels more healthy than others) and what you did was amazing. She didn't appreciate it, but that doesn't make it worthless

Think of all the life skills you have learned, the empathy you can extend to other loved ones in your life, or any who may come in to your life in the future

Love

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

I have one... .In a way funny, but also very indicative of the Double Standard that BPD's can live within.

We are not Packers fans, but we did watch the Packers/Giants playoff game a couple of weeks ago.

When Rogers threw the hail mary TD pass at the end of the first half, I smiled in shock and disbelief as well as just recognizing an amazing effort.

She flipped me off, and said the words that go with the gesture with a look of hatred in her eyes and added that she can't believe that I would cheer for the Packers.

Fast forward a week.  Packers vs Cowboys.

At the end of the game, Rogers makes another heroic play, that sets them up for the game winning TD.  She laughs and smiles, and even says that maybe she's going to have to start cheering for the Packers.

Now fast forward to yesterday.  Packers vs Falcons.

Lets just say, she took great joy in the Packers demise, and numerous times did the Nelson from the Simpsons 'Hah Hah!' laugh.

All I can say is that once you get to the point of depersonalizing, and give up hope that your pwBPD will ever get better, there is some level of humor that you can find in it all.

[vortex of confusion]

Do you have all day?

I feel like most of what happened was a double standard.

I do wonder how helpful it is for me to dwell on this stuff. Since I am detaching, it does help to remind me of why I kicked him out and why I am detaching. Since this is on the conflicted board, I wonder what it is you are hoping to achieve by looking at the double standards. If you are hoping to win her back, looking at all of the double standards might create more resentment and anger. I know I get angry looking at this stuff. I get more angry at myself than him quite frankly. I am angry at myself for putting up with so much crap. I want more.

He would puff up his chest that he was the primary bread winner. He completely dismissed the fact that I had a job and took care of the kids. When I got a second part time job, the first words he said were, "What about my stuff? What am I going to do with the kids on those nights?" He spent all of those years talking about being the primary bread winner. Now, I am doing it all and he is wallowing in his mental health and healing. When I try to bring up the fact that I need him to get a job, he says stuff like, "I can't make people hire me." I was supposed to praise him and fall all over myself giving him credit for every little thing he did yet he couldn't/wouldn't acknowledge anything I did.

And if you really want to get creepy, there is the stuff that happened when we were experimenting with an "open" relationship. I lived up to my end of the bargain. I put him in touch with 2 of the 3 gentleman that I was talking to at different times. I didn't meet anybody or do anything without letting ex know. Yet, he would lie to me and tell me that he wasn't doing anything. All the while he was talking to several different women and sending them pics and telling them all kinds of horrible things about me. He could do whatever he wanted and I wasn't supposed to say a word. In my opinion, it was a set up. Even now, he has told people that I was dating because I was doing it openly and honestly. He never once mentions the fact that he has chased several women in the year or two that we have been separated. He keeps all of his crap secret. I look like the fool idiot if I say anything. I get stuff like, "Oh, he would never do that." Nah, he would do it, he is just going to hide it to keep up his good boy image. Me, I don't hide stuff. I don't have an image to maintain.

Here is another good one. He used to complain that I didn't keep the house clean enough. There was one time when he was with the kids alone and I came home and asked why the house wasn't cleaned or something like that. I had basically left a list of stuff for him and the kids to do while I was gone. When I got back, little if any was done. His excuse was, "It is hard to take care of kids and clean the house. Daughter was particularly difficult today so I didn't get anything else accomplished." Oh, that stuff made me so mad. I was expected to clean the house, keep up with all of the finances, keep up with meal planning, kids, two part time jobs, and who knows what else. Yet, he whines about how hard it is to take care of the kids and the house.

And the best one was a night when I got upset with the kids and got a little loud. I was tired and all four of them were refusing to go to bed. I yelled at them to go to bed. Ex woke up and was grumpy and growly. I don't remember all of the specifics. I just know that he was pizzed off. I was trying to get in the room and he pushed me down while I was holding our youngest daughter. This was more than 5 or 6 years ago. He always said that I lost my footing and fell. I know he pushed me. The point is that when we talked about it later, he told me, "If you hadn't gotten so loud and could have just been quiet, there wouldn't have been a problem." He made it sound like I was being unreasonable and crazy. He was friggin' sleeping. He is the one that got upset over his sleep getting disturbed not me.

[cbm419]

Lol. This could also take me all day. I'll briefly describe a few.

He could cheat on me (and did constantly) but on recommending an open relationship he melted down for daysssss. His cheating was because of his hyper sexual past, so I just had to deal with being cheated on over 50 times in our relationship.  We're no longer together, and when a mutual friend mentioned that I have been dating one person a couple times, he reached out to me freaking out. Meanwhile, since the split he has had 10+ casual partners by his own admission.  But me having a few dates - got so much HOW COULD YOU? even months after break up.

He could hit me (and send me to the hospital) but if I ever defended myself or shoved him in away in reaction, it was my fault for "starting it". Makes zero sense! Talk about chicken and the egg(shells).

Same thing with rages. If I lost my patience and became angry in response, it was my fault for "starting it". This makes zero sense at all too!

God I could keep going on but I have been getting so much better from now dwelling on this stuff anymore. The further he gets from me emotionally, the better I feel. And I've met a few awesome new potential bfs and have thoroughly enjoyed how liberating it is to meet new, normal people. It provides such great distance. Def recommend it if you are feeling ready or even on the fence. Nothing to lose and tremendous potential to help process detaching.

[michel71]

Thank you Heart. Yes I have to concentrate on me and not focus on her. I know that is part of trying to heal.

Thank you Faith for your kind words. You are right. We must not lose sight with what we have to give others, even if the one you thought was the love of your life didn't care.

[Meili]

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