less severe BPD?

[Danny123]

Hi,  my wife and I have been struggling for a long time and recently it was confirmed by our couples therapist that my wife most likely has BPD.  My wife has essentially stopped our couples counseling due to her feeling blamed and unsupported in therapy.  Our counselor meet with me individually and pretty much told me that she doesn't have any real hope for us.  It doesn't appear that my wife is willing to recognize or look at what is happening for her.  There are times when she will and then it can all seem to go out the window and she believes the reason we are struggling is because I never really loved her.  I feel like I have done everything I possibly can to support her and try and make her happy but no matter what small things will cause her to treat me like I am a terrible husband who must not love her.
We have two boys 5 and 7 and I am really at loss for what is best for them.  I have realized that no matter what I do it wont fulfill my wife and I feel hopeless on that front.  I don' t know if I can be happy in this relationship because of criticism and attacks even if I know it is not about me.  I am a pretty sensitive person and it is so hard for me not to take it personally when she is so upset with me. 

I would say that my wife's BPD is on the less severe side, no physical abuse but rather just intense feelings of anger or sadness that is my fault.  AN example, we were on a family camping trip with my boys and everything going well for 2 days.  We were going to leave and the kids came to me and said mom had told them they could have ice cream before we left the campground at the snack shack.  I said okay and told the boys to load up in the car and we would drive over to stop on the eay out.  My wife asked me to wait for her as she went to the bathroom for a few minutes to finish getting ready.  The boys kept asking me if they could get ice cream so I said okay we will just walk over to the snack shack and get ice cream while we wait for mom.  When we got back and my wife came out of the bathroom and saw that the boys had ice cream already she was furious and glared at me with such hostility and said "I can't believe you did that, I can't even talk to you."  I was confused and apologized and tried to communicate that I thought she meant to wait to load up in the car, not about the ice cream.  She said that she wanted to "have that experience" with them even though we had gotten ice cream during camping multiple times prior.  THe rest of the day she was furious with me, not speaking to me, general looks of hostility, and later came to me to explain how upset and hurt she was that I had not listened.  Most situations like this start with her being furious at me later followed by tears of how much I hurt her.  Sometimes she even goes into saying that she doesn't believe I have ever loved her.(I honestly don't know what is harder to take).  It has got to the point where I feel numb when she is crying about how hurt she is, I feel so exhausted and confused.  It is so difficult in those moments for me not to start believing her with thoughts of maybe this is all my fault.

My natural instinct is to feel bad about myself for not understanding her request and it starts to erode my self esteem.  There are so many other small things that feel like they are constantly  happening, being upset about little stuff like things not being put in proper place, upset that when I don't immediately agree to her plans for the day (usually out of concern for kids), little criticism about things I did wrong like not buying organic produce,  just asking if or when we can leave a function can seem to bother her.  They are not these huge blow ups but I feel like I am consistently treated like I am annoying, forgetful, bad listener, unaffectionate, don't do enough around the house, etc. 

It funny because all of my friends and even her friends have told me that I do way to much and that I am a great listener, affectionate, have a great memory(often remember to ask them about a struggle they had mentioned in the past or something) I am the only one with a job and up until recently (trying to set better boundaries)I was doing  more than half of the household and parenting duties.  My wife even tells me how her friends tell her how lucky she is to have me cause of all that I do and my wife will acknowledge that in those moments but then all the criticism still continues. 

One year for her birthday I got her a massage table and a book for me to train myself to give her proper massages.  I begin giving her multiple full body massages 2-3 times per week and in those moments she would seem so great full and I would feel super hopeful about our relationship but then the criticism and comments would continue and suck the energy out of me.

As I write this I realize how I am really just venting and trying to understand my situation.  I think I want to convince myself that things are not that bad and if she does have BPD it is of a minor degree that we can have a healthy relationship.  How does my situations sound to people?  I think I am just trying to get some clarity on the reality of my relationship, I find myself even questioning our couples therapist/psychologist who told me she believed my wife had BPD.

[Notwendy]

While BPD is on a spectrum, the other half of this relationship is you. How this situation sounds to other people- I don't know if it's helpful because your coming to a decision is a very individual process, involving your own boundaries, values, and emotional make up.

A relationship doesn't have to be physically abusive to be abusive. Emotional and verbal abuse are significant too. And even relationships that include abuse may not be that way all the time. There are times where the person may act loving too- which makes them confusing and complicated.

How does your situation sound to people? It's more important to consider how is this affecting you, your own mental health. To stay or leave are complicated decisions. It's not that one is success and the other is failure.

I have a mother with BPD and from what I can see, she is severely BPD as it significantly affects her level of function and also her relationships. However, she isn't physically abusive. I don't see absence of physical abuse as an indicator of more or less severe. I'm not qualified to say for certain. From my own observations- I think impact on relationships is more of an indicator. Some people who are mildly affected are able to be employed and function in other relationships. However, BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most- and that is immediate family. Someone can function better outside the family but family relationships are still affected. Regardless of where your wife is on the BPD spectrum- you are deciding for yourself and your children.

[awakened23]

Danny123, I can understand every word you say because I have been in a 20 yr marriage with my uBPDw and tore than the specific examples you gave, I have had the same experiences with my wife. Thankfully you know early on about BPD behavior. I spent 20 years in the FOG without even knowing there was something like BPD always blaming myself and losing my self esteem in the process. I can say that with my uBPDw, the symptoms were mild in the beginning although the anger/rage was extreme and directed at others. Over the years it  became directed at me. In the initial years it was emotional, then moved to verbal and then it moved to physical abuse. it is like the contempt kept on building over time. Higher highs and lower lows. There are times she is amazing and says I am the best hubby in the world, especially when any of her friends praise me, but all that is wiped out in the hatred spouting of the next rage episode. meanwhile I am left trying to cope and run my life based on her daily emotional state. I am planning my exit now as I can take no more and I feel I will become an emotional basket case of no use to anyone if I continue to stay. Also she cheated on me along the way (emotional infidelity in the past and more recently turned to physical infidelity). the abuse ramped up during the cheating phase. I wish you luck in understanding your situation and making the right decision for yourself and your kids. It is probably one of the most difficult decisions to make in life. Do go to individual therapy if you have not already, it helped me immensely in bringing some of my lost self-esteem back.

[ForeverDad]

Awaken23 mentioned the thought I wanted to mention, that BPD can often progress to more and more intense (dysfunctional) behavior.  BPD and all the other mental health issues exist on a spectrum, from mild traits to extreme ones.

It is probably unrealistic to expect her to not worsen her behavior in future years.  None of us know the future, but worsening behavior is a common progression.  BPD is a disorder or dysfunction of close relationships so people on the periphery may notice something "off" but not really get impacted.  That's also a reason you couldn't help her resolve her issues.  She can't or won't look past the baggage of the years of close emotional relationship for her to truly listen to you.  Which is why it sad but typical for her to stop therapy sessions, therapists might help because they don't have a personal/emotional relationship with patients.

You didn't mention how long you were married, but was this behavior evident from the start or did some events trigger increased levels of disordered or dysfunctional patterns?  I ask because that is what I looked back and noticed about my own marriage.  (The biggest change was when we had a child.)

When I met my spouse, I did not notice any poor behavior on her part, it was her family (FOO - family of origin) that alarmed me.  So for a long time I felt I had saved her.  But very gradually memories or incidents occurred that traumatized her so that I became more and more concerned.  One was when she had a serious tiff with a coworker, her very good friend.  We had been religious volunteers until then but we soon left and moved to my home town.

She was still unhappy so I had what I had thought was a great idea, she would be happier if we had a child and she could watch our child discover the joys of life.  Uh oh, bad idea, serious mental health issues aren't resolved by having children.  Rather, having children makes everything vastly more complicated should the marriage fail.  Which mine did.  The level of her poor behavior ratcheted up several times those early years of my son's life.  As I look back, she no longer saw me as her husband of a decade but a father, and she started comparing me to her abuser stepfather.  So my two year divorce was incredible difficult since she perceived me as Mr Evil Personified.

My son is grown now and still lives with me.  With custody issues moot, the conflict is way down but I still have to be careful not to trigger her when she is here to visit our son.

Is my son impacted from those early years?  Yes.  Were separating and divorcing appropriate for my circumstances?  Yes, I know that he benefited by having his parents live separately.  It was not my first choice of course, but I wanted him to have at least some of his life (alternate weekends at first, then equal time, then majority time) in a home where life was somewhat normal with calm and stability.  Sure he still experienced flying monkeys at time, but at least it wasn't all the time.  I couldn't fix her life, but but establishing a separate home where I didn't have to be fixing, appeasing and apologizing any more.

[eightdays]

Think about whether the two of you can be genuinely vulnerable with each other?   Or does her behavior create an environment that precludes that?   One of the biggest lessons I learned from my marriage to a disordered person is that is the key to a healthy relationship.   We tried to learn how together in therapy also, and she just could not do it.

[ParentingThruIt]

I can relate to your experience - uBPD ex over
The course of our 12 yr relationship did more and more blaming and raging and also social isolation for himself and attempts to control what I did with the kids, I didn’t get time alone with them etc. a couple times when I wouldn’t do what he wanted or when he got really agitated it escalated to physical violence.

The book Stop Caretaking your BPD by Fjelstad is excellent. It helps you change how you relate to them by setting boundaries, whether you decide to leave the relationship or stay. She also wrote a book on coparenting.

I would believe what the therapist told you.
Knowing that she has an illness that you can’t cure - can you live with this behavior and be a happy and effective parent? Does she direct abuse at the kids? Are the kids witnessing a lot of verbal abuse?

I got my ex out of the house a year ago. It’s not over but it’s allowed me to see how the daily tension was affecting our daughter. He was making it really difficult to parent at all because anything I did he seemed to take as a personal attack.

It’s great that you have the insight you do. Keep going. I’m sorry it’s so difficult. Know that you didn’t cause this and you can’t fix it. But you can control your own choices, knowing what you know.

[Pook075]

Hey Danny, I'm so sorry for what you're going through and I have to echo what Notwendy said, other people's opinions aren't helpful in this particular circumstance.  It's sort of like an astronaut asking a baker and a landscaper on their opinions of walking on the moon...they're not qualified to have an opinion and any advice will be misleading.  That's where you're at right now.

For your wife's part, the core problem is the stuff you don't see, those deep-rooted feelings of being a failure in life.  You can't "fix" those problems and this isn't on you; it's an internal battle within her that leads to endless self-doubt, shame, and bitterness.  Since she can't process what's happening or why she feels the way she does, the blame gets cast outward to those closest to her.  Her thinking is along the lines of, "My life is horrible, I'm miserable, so it must be the people I'm closest to that's making me feel this way."

Why does that matter?  Because when you can understand that she's in considerable pain whenever she's in that type of mindset, then you can help her shift away from it and get back to her baseline.  If someone doesn't help her "reel in" those thoughts, they can build for days, weeks, and even months.  That's called disordered thinking and they allow their feelings to replace logic.

For instance, let's say you and I plan to get together to watch the game this weekend.  Only, I've had a horrible day before you arrived...the kids were out of control, the dog peed on the floor, work has been impossible lately...whatever.  I'm just angry and trying to shake it off before you arrive.  But you show up an hour late and you forgot to pick up food like you said you would...and that's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Since i don't have a mental disorder, maybe I yell and say you're a lousy friend.  You should have called and I could have ordered pizza and wings, plus I could have recorded the game.  Since you don't have a mental disorder, you'd likely own up to it...you messed up.  Then we go about our day and we'd probably still watch the second half of the game.  Our "argument" is over minutes after it starts and all is forgiven.

For your wife in this exact same scenario waiting for you to arrive, she's angry and hiding it, but from her perspective you intentionally betrayed her when she was having the worst day of her life...it's proof that you don't love her anymore.  Then her brain searches for other things you've done recently that don't align with a loving husband; you didn't take the trash out a few weeks ago, and you left your laundry on the bed when you know she hates that (which you may have no idea of, because so much is hidden internally).  

All these illogical thoughts build and build and build as she makes a case against you.  From your perspective, things are good...she's just been a little more quiet or distant lately. But in her mind, things are terrible and you keep doing these things to hurt her, to put her down, to make her feel worthless.

This is exactly what happened when my 23 year marriage ended and countless others have a similar story.  That's why people say their BPD snapped on them out of the blue, for no reason, and the relationship fell apart.  It all stems from disordered thinking that's allowed to fester over time.

So what can you do?  In a nutshell, ignore the logical arguments within your brain and ignore most of what she's complaining about.  That stuff is worthless in this instance because it's not a fair fight; she's lashing out because she's hurt and making excuses of why it's your fault, and you're defending against that senseless stuff while making her realize that you don't care.  It's a lose-lose situation when you argue with logic and she relies on emotions in the moment.

Instead, you make this an "emotion to emotion" type of scenario.  She complains that you did this, forgot that, won't do this....whatever.  What she's saying is not what's actually bothering her, because the real problem is disordered thinking that she doesn't even understand.  So you don't fight about the words.  Instead, you simply soothe whatever emotion she's showing to help her get back to a level headed state.

If she's sad, hug her and tell her you're there to listen.  If she's angry, then apologize and ask what you can do to make it right.  If she's frustrated, then stop whatever you're doing and tell her that your only focus is on her until a solution is found.  You meet her emotionally wherever she's at and help her get back to her cool, calm, collective self.

I know that sounds "crazy"...how could that work?  But that's what BPD is all about, getting the person out of a destructive thought pattern so you can move on.  And you do that through empathy, love, and understanding that they're hurting emotionally and hiding 99% of the pain that they're feeling.

I hope that helps!

[Danny123]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies.  I am overwhelmed by the amount of energy and caring people in this forum have.  I have never done a forum before and it is really comforting to know that there are other people out there experiencing some of the same stuff as me.

My wife and I have been together for 11 years and I think I always knew there was something wrong but just thought if I could really show her unconditional love it would solve it.  I remember when we were engaged and she was so angry with me about something small like, leaving my shoes in the wrong place, that I thought she was going to hit him.  I actually told her that I was feeling nervous that she was going to hit me and her response was to become even angrier that I could even think that.  Still to this day she is upset with me for thinking that.  It is not until recently (even as I am writing this) that I am realizing how dysfunctional it is when one person tells the other person they are afraid of them  for the other person to respond with anger and continue to have anger at them for even feeling that way.  Just writing this makes me realize how wrong and abusive that is, people have a right to express when they do not feel safe and that should be respected especially by the person that supposedly loves them.
 It is really strange to look back now and see the pattern of blaming, attacking , and taking her emotions out on me but not being able to see it. 
My wife will have times where she is very loving towards me which makes it so confusing.  All of the sudden her love and desire for me will pour out of her and I will immediately forget everything and feel like it is all going to be okay.  I am in one of those spots right now.  Last night she ask me to dance and then before I know it we are making love and I find myself struggling to remember and believe that she has these BPD traits. 
In the moment I feel so conflicted, part of me is trying to prepare myself to leave the relationship and feels deceitful to be engaging sexually but then another part of me is so desperate to feel loved cause I am really struggling with everything I am going through and I really do love her and wish we could be happy together and a good example for our boys to be around.  It is so confusing and disorienting.  Whenever I try and imagine a reality where I do not live with my boys full time I get stuck and can't get passed it.
I know that this is a pattern and nothing has really changed but yet I still struggle not to slip into the mindset that everything is good.  Still have work to do on myself.  I just want it to be good so badly for my family and myself that I am willing to lie to myself I guess.
I have been making strides with boundaries and not blending into her reality and I think she knows that I am pulling away and that makes her reach out to me?  I have to keep reminding myself that both my individual counselor and our couples counselor told me they think she has BPD and they do not have any real hope for our relationship.  Does anyone else struggle with lying to themselves that everything is fine and maybe somehow the BPD behavior has stopped?

Does anyone have experiences they could share about how their partner behaved when they were in the process of leaving the relationship?  My wife seems to mostly be just acting like the victim and is in denial about our couples counselor explicitly saying that the solution lies with her and she recommends serious trauma counseling.  My wife just keeps asking why I am not reaching out to her, and  talking about my issues of "not feeling like enough."  I am trying to hold the line by bringing up the things our couple counselors said and stating that I believe the major issue in our relationship is the "hole in her heart" that she has spoken of at times during our couples counseling and how that makes her treat/view me.  She is slowly going to counseling but seems to be dragging her feet and not going whenever she can find an excuse. She has already changed counselors once and I feel like she just wants to find a counselor that won't challenge her but rather believe her victim reality.   I want to have hope so badly that things can change and our family doesn't have to split up but I think I am just lying to myself.

Well I feel like I ma just rambling now, thanks for listening

[ParentingThruIt]

That's not rambling at all and I can relate to so much of what you have said. I might be rambling, take what's helpful :-)

Yes, I knew there was something wrong for probably 9 or 10 of the 12+ years we were together. But I also knew he had a caring heart and on some level cared about me and certainly the kids. In my case the rages got more intense and more frequent over time and he generally refused to spend time with me (no dates, would be on his phone or asleep when the kids were out cold, social isolation in general, etc). At some point I accepted that this wouldn't be an emotionally fulfilling partnership for me, but the kids seemed good and loved us both and he seemed good to them. Even when an emotional reaction escalated to physical violence, I was shocked, and declined a restraining order or to work with the DA to pursue a conviction. I thought he needed mental health help, not jail, which was probably right. He started therapy but years later he just got worse. I met with both of them once and it turned out he had misrepresented/hid from his therapist a lot that was going on, including drinking on meds and labile moods and raging and refusing to let me have time alone with the kids or give him a break.

I was definitely confused by the periods of rages, irrational behavior, leaving me out of decisions or refusing to have conversations, followed by a week or two that was smooth and seemed good. Honestly it was my therapist and people in my family who I confided in who helped me notice the patterns. I eventually ended up in a domestic violence support group and they helped me see the pattern of escalation over time as well. The abuse for me has overwhelmingly been verbal and emotional but occasionally backed up physically and definitely escalated over time. When I look back I see a lot of controlling behavior aimed at making the world more manageable for him.

Re: the kids, it was unthinkable for a long time to me to separate because of them, but once I saw that he was failing to take good care of them (loving in many moments but also drinking and passing out while watching them, and overriding my attempts to parent, and refusing things like needed braces and therapy for the kids, and contributing to a high level of baseline stress in our home) -- it became clear to me that I couldnt "hold it all together" and I was unwilling to take my kids on the run. So I got him removed in an ex parte hearing and that got backed up with a brief period of sole custody, followed by a slow step up plan. He has them 1.5 days a week now and we are still working it out.

Divorce is definitely hard, on both of you and the kids, but I believe it is still the right thing. My daughter has had more to process but also has less baseline stress and more room to process. I got both kids into therapy as soon as I could, worked with the school social worker and their teachers, and got some resources thru their pediatrician and my employee assistance program. I finally got my son the braces he'd needed. We have been able to have play dates at the house and the kids have tried new things that he always opposed (basic things like after school activities, camp, skiing, going to the fair, etc.) I've been told that I'm setting an example for them of setting healthy boundaries in response to unhealthy behavior.

We made it to a couples counselor once, after the separation, with the intention of building a space for co-parenting and communication. He complained about me, the therapist backed up the actions I had taken, and he refused to go back. She later told me she suspected he has a personality disorder. In the session he tried to accuse me of having NPD. If your wife isn't ready to hear it, she's not ready to hear it. I think you have done absolutely all you can - but it's your life and instincts. The Fjelstad book is good on boundary setting and deciding whether to go or stay.

Even if everything goes to hell in court, which I don't think it completely will, I treasure having the past year to actually feel like I can be their parent without being impeded or overwhelmed. Not dealing with his emotional rollercoasters gives me the space and bandwith to handle my daughter's. :-) It gave me room to find my own footing as a parent without his put downs, and to see the way I impact my kids positively.

Initially it was really hard parting with the kids even for a day or so a week for his visits. At this point, that time gives me time to recharge, take care of the house, etc. I am hopeful I will get more than the 50/50 custody he is pursuing. I do feel sad and a little worried about whether he will get lots of custody and I wont see them as much. I asked the judge to appoint a Guardian Ad Litem to do a custody evaluation / recommendation. That was a hard decision too, but I think it was the right one. It's giving me a dedicated space to explain the problematic behavior we have experienced and my concerns about the future. Even if it doesn't move the needle on custody time much, it will document my concerns and it may move the custody  needle or at least maybe get a parenting coach involved, or establish "tiebreaker" rules for disagreements about medical/dental decisions, etc that may help.  He continues to blame me for his adverse behaviors and thinks I am overreacting to them.

It might help to take this time to read up, reflect, maybe talk to lawyers, think about what you want to do and how you'd want to go about it. Documentation helps a lot, so just writing down what you've experienced and maybe calling out some specific events and their dates may help you reflect and may also help you if you pursue a divorce.

This is your decision and  your timeline. Your clear concern for everyone involved is a credit to you, even though it's extremely difficult as well.

[PeteWitsend]

...

My wife and I have been together for 11 years and I think I always knew there was something wrong but just thought if I could really show her unconditional love it would solve it.  ...

When you step back from one of these relationships, you see that establishing this dynamic is the entire point.  Their anxiety/fear of abandonment drives them to create a situation where you're always chasing them.  They can't fathom that adults in a healthy relationship can and should have their own space and personal time.  

You see also the analogy of "the bottomless pit" is apt; you're essentially forced to constantly give to them, and if/when you stop, you're immediately "painted black" and made out to be this selfish monster.  There's no truth to it, but sometimes they're good at convincing you it's true.

Seriously, search for "bottomless pit" and "BPD" and see how many times on different forums, aside from this one, people have had this realization.

As others above have suggested, don't lead yourself into thinking it's not that bad because she doesn't do some of the more egregious things, like resort to physical violence, or engage in more excessive personal behavior (alcohol abuse, drugs, cheating, etc.).  This could be only because you've learned to "self censor" and ignore your own needs in order to keep her happy.  If you started to assert yourself, she could very well start to escalate her behavior, as ForeverDad suggests.  

[ForeverDad]

PeteWitsend mentioned "the bottomless pit" which reminded me of these links here:

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole