Re: Well looks like divorce is finally happening Pt. 3

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This makes no sense to me either. Yes, it's understandable you are angry, frustrated.

Saying something about you that isn't true doesn't make it true. You have the other kids. How you parent them will speak for itself. It is hard to make a case for you being violent if there isn't any- and also no evidence. This may be something to bring to a lawyer- false accusations have consequences too.

Not only is there no evidence, I have video footage of what happened.  I came to terms that I was going to have to get my daughter out of my house.  She is toxic to me and all the other kids.  All the police and cps reports came from her.  None of the others.  Her mother tells her I'm a liar and manupulator and even worse.  But nobody will listen.   I feel like I'm in a bad movie.
I think your D will discover the consequences of her own behavior and she's with her mother now. This is out of your hands. (unless there's other legal action that could be taken).

Even if you took legal action to get her back or to have her visit you, if she doesn't want to, you can't change her mind. Your D is too young to be completely self determined but also has her own wishes based on her limited point of view at this age. If she really doesn't want to live with you and you forced her too, that would not go well either. I think she is going to have to have her own experiences with her BPD mother to figure things out.

[mikejones75093]

This makes no sense to me either. Yes, it's understandable you are angry, frustrated.

Saying something about you that isn't true doesn't make it true. You have the other kids. How you parent them will speak for itself. It is hard to make a case for you being violent if there isn't any- and also no evidence. This may be something to bring to a lawyer- false accusations have consequences too.

Not only is there no evidence, I have video footage of what happened.  I came to terms that I was going to have to get my daughter out of my house.  She is toxic to me and all the other kids.  All the police and cps reports came from her.  None of the others.  Her mother tells her I'm a liar and manupulator and even worse.  But nobody will listen.   I feel like I'm in a bad movie.
I think your D will discover the consequences of her own behavior and she's with her mother now. This is out of your hands. (unless there's other legal action that could be taken).

Even if you took legal action to get her back or to have her visit you, if she doesn't want to, you can't change her mind. Your D is too young to be completely self determined but also has her own wishes based on her limited point of view at this age. If she really doesn't want to live with you and you forced her too, that would not go well either. I think she is going to have to have her own experiences with her BPD mother to figure things out.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother has said all kinds of things about me that aren't true and yes, it's shocking and hurtful when other people seem to believe it. Eventually I found that truth prevails- how long it takes but eventually, in interactions with her, some of her behaviors became evident.

Other than the false information about you, it seems that things are working the way they need to be. If the 11 year old is toxic, and it's affecting her siblings, then it's good she's not there with them. This may feel unatural to you, she is your D - but she also wanted to be with her mother, so it's how they wanted it.

Unless there are legal routes to go for this, all you can do is be your best self and best parent to the other two kids. Your D will have her own experiences with her mother. Even if the two of you stayed married, she'd have her own experiences with her mother. By her age, the relationship is more of a factor between two people, not small child and parent,  and will evolve according to their personalities. Your D still needs a parent but she no longer needs a parent to feed her, dress her and take care of her in these ways. Your D made her choices and she will see how this works out for her. You have the opportunity to provide a safe space for you and the other two kids. One day, your D may decide to join you but you will have rules and boundaries for all the childrens' behaviors that she would have to comply with.

[mikejones75093]

My BPD mother has said all kinds of things about me that aren't true and yes, it's shocking and hurtful when other people seem to believe it. Eventually I found that truth prevails- how long it takes but eventually, in interactions with her, some of her behaviors became evident.

Other than the false information about you, it seems that things are working the way they need to be. If the 11 year old is toxic, and it's affecting her siblings, then it's good she's not there with them. This may feel unatural to you, she is your D - but she also wanted to be with her mother, so it's how they wanted it.

Unless there are legal routes to go for this, all you can do is be your best self and best parent to the other two kids. Your D will have her own experiences with her mother. Even if the two of you stayed married, she'd have her own experiences with her mother. By her age, the relationship is more of a factor between two people, not small child and parent,  and will evolve according to their personalities. Your D still needs a parent but she no longer needs a parent to feed her, dress her and take care of her in these ways. Your D made her choices and she will see how this works out for her. You have the opportunity to provide a safe space for you and the other two kids. One day, your D may decide to join you but you will have rules and boundaries for all the childrens' behaviors that she would have to comply with.

I had basically come to terms with she needs to go live with her and figure out who she really is.  I'm upset I have a protective order filed against me saying I'm violent.  It's civil not criminal but I have never been violent in my entire life with anyone.  Don't know how the courts can't see she harnesses me and coaches my daughter.  I'm so violent he made her turn the rest of the kids over to me and gave me make up time with them.  I don't get it

[ForeverDad]

As difficult as it is now, you need to deal with your life as it is now, not what is fair or if the whole truth had been considered.

One thing I noticed in my own life is that my court took my proofs as slightly less compelling than what my child's school testified to.  There were two main items.  One was that my ex had nearly all the attendance tardies recording the prior school year.  That seems minor, right?  But it did matter.  The other was that teachers testified that at his 5th grade overnight to a school-organized overnight camp (which started on my time) his mother came and made a huge scene demanding it was her time and she wanted her kid now.

Some of that you don't have a voice in now, but be on the watch for indicators in D's attendance, school work, etc that indicates D is not prospering with Dad out of her life.  You never know, there may be something actionable that develops.

Another approach is to get your daughter into counseling.  (You want  her to be in contact with her school counselors for sure, as that would be great but might be of limited benefit.  It all depends whether she would open up to counselors.)

Meanwhile, don't give up, you still have the younger children with you and they need you too.  Another worry is that with ex's "win" she may start working to undermine your relationship with the other kids.

It's really strange for a court to essentially separate the children with out good reason.  And you don't want that either.

[mikejones75093]

As difficult as it is now, you need to deal with your life as it is now, not what is fair or if the whole truth had been considered.

One thing I noticed in my own life is that my court took my proofs as slightly less compelling than what my child's school testified to.  There were two main items.  One was that my ex had nearly all the attendance tardies recording the prior school year.  That seems minor, right?  But it did matter.  The other was that teachers testified that at his 5th grade overnight to a school-organized overnight camp (which started on my time) his mother came and made a huge scene demanding it was her time and she wanted her kid now.

Some of that you don't have a voice in now, but be on the watch for indicators in D's attendance, school work, etc that indicates D is not prospering with Dad out of her life.  You never know, there may be something actionable that develops.

Another approach is to get your daughter into counseling.  (You want  her to be in contact with her school counselors for sure, as that would be great but might be of limited benefit.  It all depends whether she would open up to counselors.)

Meanwhile, don't give up, you still have the younger children with you and they need you too.  Another worry is that with ex's "win" she may start working to undermine your relationship with the other kids.

It's really strange for a court to essentially separate the children with out good reason.  And you don't want that either.

I realize I have to live for now and I am.  My other kids haven't been brainwashed yet and I have them most of the time.  CPS interviewed everyone at the school, and they all said my kids are living their best life, no abuse no concern.  The judge only listened to what my D testified to on the stand.

Apparently now my daughter's arm is broken.  Took her to an orthopedist and got a cast put on .  Er last week said everything including x rays negative.  I did not break her arm.  I have video evidence of everything.  This is scary. I've never been violent towards anyone.  She wants me in jail and sole custody of the kids. 

I'm lost.  I have no clue how to handle this. I don't think she will ever stop.

[ForeverDad]

Although judges are granted discretion in their decisions, could you have sought a reconsideration or an appeal?  What did your lawyer say?  There is a time frame that must be met for filing and often those are handled by a lawyer specializing in such types of cases.

Sadly, we do have some parents, fortunately not many, who faced vexatious litigants.  Does your lawyer believe the evidence from the ER will also serve to exonerate you?

You might be dealing with some variation of Factitious Disorder (formerly known as Munchausen syndrome / by proxy)?

[mikejones75093]

Although judges are granted discretion in their decisions, could you have sought a reconsideration or an appeal?  What did your lawyer say?  There is a time frame that must be met for filing and often those are handled by a lawyer specializing in such types of cases.

Sadly, we do have some parents, fortunately not many, who faced vexatious litigants.  Does your lawyer believe the evidence from the ER will also serve to exonerate you?

You might be dealing with some variation of Factitious Disorder (formerly known as Munchausen syndrome / by proxy)?

It all happened so recent.  Meet with attorney this week to go over that.  I did not break her arm.  If her arm is really broken I'm concerned maybe her mom did it?  My D is completely brainwashed.  They are besties not mom and D.  Eventually the honeymoon will end and my ex wife will never change.  The rage will come out and my D will be the target.  After this nobody wants to be around my D.  She's on an island alone by herself now.  There is a reason my ex has no family or friends in her life.  One day my young D will realize what she did and want to see everyone.  She's isolated now.

[mikejones75093]

Although judges are granted discretion in their decisions, could you have sought a reconsideration or an appeal?  What did your lawyer say?  There is a time frame that must be met for filing and often those are handled by a lawyer specializing in such types of cases.

Sadly, we do have some parents, fortunately not many, who faced vexatious litigants.  Does your lawyer believe the evidence from the ER will also serve to exonerate you?

You might be dealing with some variation of Factitious Disorder (formerly known as Munchausen syndrome / by proxy)?

As far as alienation and vexatious litigation, has anyone around here has success defending that and getting the other parent to stop?  I feel like I'm in a bad movie where everyone thinks she's a concerned mother and good person

[ForeverDad]

If CPS or other children's agency has already investigated, ask your lawyer whether to report this to them.  State that you believe your child needs therapeutic intervention of some sort.  And not mom's choice of a counselor or therapist since she would only agree to someone gullible or easily biased.

Mom has already "divide and conquer" one child and unlikely to stop with one in trying to pose as you being worse than her.  At this point it may be that it would be best to get this arm cast reviewed, though expect mom to claim that if it wasn't really broken then it surely was cracked or bruised.

It may take more claimed incidents like this for agencies to sit up and determine something merits being "actionable".

When I first separated, my spouse got temp custody, me not mentioned.  She shopped our 3yo to child counselors "play therapy" claiming I was the scary one.  The agency viewed the temp order as locking me out of any input even though I had long alternate weekends with him.  Yet she got the agency to send me a form letter - twice - that I was a danger to the child or others.  They only cut corners and allowed me some contact at their daycare a year later after my Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist, called them.

My court limited appeals to only 3-4 weeks after a court decision so you're under a time constraint.

[mikejones75093]

If CPS or other children's agency has already investigated, ask your lawyer whether to report this to them.  State that you believe your child needs therapeutic intervention of some sort.  And not mom's choice of a counselor or therapist since she would only agree to someone gullible or easily biased.

Mom has already "divide and conquer" one child and unlikely to stop with one in trying to pose as you being worse than her.  At this point it may be that it would be best to get this arm cast reviewed, though expect mom to claim that if it wasn't really broken then it surely was cracked or bruised.

It may take more claimed incidents like this for agencies to sit up and determine something merits being "actionable".

When I first separated, my spouse got temp custody, me not mentioned.  She shopped our 3yo to child counselors "play therapy" claiming I was the scary one.  The agency viewed the temp order as locking me out of any input even though I had long alternate weekends with him.  Yet she got the agency to send me a form letter - twice - that I was a danger to the child or others.  They only cut corners and allowed me some contact at their daycare a year later after my Custody Evaluator, a child psychologist, called them.

My court limited appeals to only 3-4 weeks after a court decision so you're under a time constraint.

I'm working on all of that.  Medical records.  Counseling.  All of it, and working on an appeal.

[mikejones75093]

As horrible as all of this is, it means she can't contact me either, so it's actually been peaceful.

Filed motions for a new trial and new evidence.  Hopefully it all works out.

Question, does the court ever figure out she's nuts?  At what point does it become obvious? The police and CPS already know, at least that is what they tell me.  Is there a certain point the court will realize she's not this amazing protective mother like she pretends to be?  Do they ever reprimand her for doing these things and will she ever stop?

[PeteWitsend]

As horrible as all of this is, it means she can't contact me either, so it's actually been peaceful.

Filed motions for a new trial and new evidence.  Hopefully it all works out.

Question, does the court ever figure out she's nuts?  At what point does it become obvious? The police and CPS already know, at least that is what they tell me.  Is there a certain point the court will realize she's not this amazing protective mother like she pretends to be?  Do they ever reprimand her for doing these things and will she ever stop?

Well, it's not really the court's job to do that, and judges are generally very careful about their reputation and concerned with not getting overturned on appeal.  Unless there's established precedent for a ruling, or the state family law code supports it, they're not going to go out on a limb and issue a ruling or decree that calls a litigant out like that.  Absence of objective findings of child abuse or neglect, or criminal convictions - things that are unquestionably admissible in court - they'll typically err on the side of "splitting the difference" (however that shakes out) on the assumption that will appear fair and no one will scrutinize their decision. 

In my own experience, at trial, BPDxw kept going off on tangents and trying to "editorialize" about how bad of a person I was.  The judge was clearly getting irritated (my attorney kept objecting to her testimony, and it was sustained in each case), and finally snapped at her "if he [i.e. my attorney] starts to stand up, just shut your mouth."  But that was as much as I got.  Fortunately for her, she knew enough when to keep her mouth shut and not antagonize the judge.  In the motion at hand, he actually ruled against me (long story), if that's any indication of what judicial sympathy is worth. 

As rewarding as it is to have 3rd parties validate what you're going through and that you're not the crazy one, it's not why you're in court.  Focus on material results and getting the rulings you need.  You're less likely to be disappointed in the long run. 

[mikejones75093]

Well, it's not really the court's job to do that, and judges are generally very careful about their reputation and concerned with not getting overturned on appeal.  Unless there's established precedent for a ruling, or the state family law code supports it, they're not going to go out on a limb and issue a ruling or decree that calls a litigant out like that.  Absence of objective findings of child abuse or neglect, or criminal convictions - things that are unquestionably admissible in court - they'll typically err on the side of "splitting the difference" (however that shakes out) on the assumption that will appear fair and no one will scrutinize their decision. 

In my own experience, at trial, BPDxw kept going off on tangents and trying to "editorialize" about how bad of a person I was.  The judge was clearly getting irritated (my attorney kept objecting to her testimony, and it was sustained in each case), and finally snapped at her "if he [i.e. my attorney] starts to stand up, just shut your mouth."  But that was as much as I got.  Fortunately for her, she knew enough when to keep her mouth shut and not antagonize the judge.  In the motion at hand, he actually ruled against me (long story), if that's any indication of what judicial sympathy is worth. 

As rewarding as it is to have 3rd parties validate what you're going through and that you're not the crazy one, it's not why you're in court.  Focus on material results and getting the rulings you need.  You're less likely to be disappointed in the long run. 

So she can just keep going on rants and filing motions with the court which means I have to show up and defend myself and pay an attorney forever?   She has filed so many police and cps charges against me it almost seems like this one stuck because she complained so high up.  When she didn't get the result she wanted she complained on the police station, when the judge didn't give her what she wanted she complained on the judge.  If I don't show up to defend myself I'm assumed guilty so I'm racking up attorney fees all because she feels like smearing my name and using the kids against me?  She's literally coached my child to where CPS and the police are listening to what my daughter is saying even though I keep showing them proof she's a lair?  It's out of control.  At no point can she ever have consequences for the false reports and filings?  It's a joke to me.

[ForeverDad]

So she can just keep going on rants and filing motions with the court which means I have to show up and defend myself and pay an attorney forever? ... It's out of control.  At no point can she ever have consequences for the false reports and filings?  It's a joke to me.

I used to tell people that my ex was able to keep filing allegations because officialdom couldn't restrict her since - who knows - maybe the 101st allegation might contain a little truth.

Vexatious Litigant is one term to research, I know it's on the books in California but is, of course, very rare to get, evidently things have to be really, really bad.

Another term that seems to be accepted a little bit more is a Gatekeeping Order.  I believe a member or two here mentioned getting it.  Maybe LivednLearned.  It's where there have been sufficient failed claims that a judge is assigned to preview any future filings first.

[PeteWitsend]

So she can just keep going on rants and filing motions with the court which means I have to show up and defend myself and pay an attorney forever?   She has filed so many police and cps charges against me it almost seems like this one stuck because she complained so high up.  When she didn't get the result she wanted she complained on the police station, when the judge didn't give her what she wanted she complained on the judge.  If I don't show up to defend myself I'm assumed guilty so I'm racking up attorney fees all because she feels like smearing my name and using the kids against me?  She's literally coached my child to where CPS and the police are listening to what my daughter is saying even though I keep showing them proof she's a lair?  It's out of control.  At no point can she ever have consequences for the false reports and filings?  It's a joke to me.

Well, there's a cost to her to do this too... at some point, that should constrain her ability to file motions with the court; and of course, frivolous motions run the risk of getting her (and her attorney) sanctioned.  I'm not sure exactly what's happening, and I wouldn't advise you to post too many details here, but what does your attorney think?

Does your STBXW have substantial financial resources or something?  If she can outspend you, there may not be much you can do, other than play defense and try to negotiate some sort of settlement to get her to go away.

Again, your attorney should be on top of this, or at least have some thoughts on  how to get you out of this mess.  If they're taking this lying down (or just enjoying the billable hours its generating for them) maybe it's time to interview some other attorneys. 

[PeteWitsend]

Not all attorneys are greedy bastards, and many hate to see frivolous things like this happen, knowing the damage it does to the reputation of the profession.  Find one that will take a stand, and not just shrug their shoulders when they're up against a party that's abusing the legal system like that.

[ForeverDad]

We had a member years ago who dealt with an ex who seemed to have an exaggerated level of Borderline aggressiveness, seeking online support, etc.  Have you looked at the traits of Histrionic Personality Disorder?  She could even be co-morbid with aspects of multiple PDs.

[PeteWitsend]

In my own experience, the brush with the legal system (and the cost of it) seemed to sober BPDxw up considerably. 

The only thing she hated more than having to work was having to spend her own money on anything other than fun or things that enhance her ego.

A BPDer that is actually willing to go scorched Earth no matter the cost - and put in the time to continually create false allegations - is a next level horror.

Interestingly, in my state, CPS just changed the rules around filing complaints to no longer accept anonymous ones.  If you don't provide a verified name and address with your complaint (which is still kept confidential), they won't act on it.  I assume that change was due to too many baseless allegations wasting their time.