Bad night here

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Well... .the newer strategy was to send the kids to their rooms when she started spewing stuff about me.

Did that tonight... .was quite a scene... .she got much louder as kids were heading to their rooms.

Screaming that I was horrible... .that I was mad... .what was wrong with me... .

Sigh... .back to the drawing boards... .or perhaps this is the best way... .and I just need to be consistent.

Very frustrating.

FF

[formflier]

Well... .the newer strategy was to send the kids to their rooms when she started spewing stuff about me.

Did that tonight... .was quite a scene... .she got much louder as kids were heading to their rooms.

Screaming that I was horrible... .that I was mad... .what was wrong with me... .

Sigh... .back to the drawing boards... .or perhaps this is the best way... .and I just need to be consistent.

Very frustrating.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

   

Just returning the favor FF ;-)

Been there, done that, probably doing it again soon. The night is young... .

 

[formflier]

Thanks!

FF

[Notwendy]

I would be consistent.

The scenes need an audience. Like a temper tantrum and parents are advised to ignore those. Unfortunately you can't pick your wife up and put her in time out like you can with a small child.

Sending the kids to their rooms takes away the audience. Also it is better for them to not witness it- but they can hear it from their rooms. It may help to also have a counselor ( neutral person), or you if you feel you can do this without triangulating-  explain to them what is happening with this kind of thing. Mommy is having a moment of feeling bad, it isn't their fault, and when Dad says to go to their rooms it is so Mommy can have some space for herself. This way they know they aren't being blamed or punished, and neither is their mother.

[formflier]

Right... .

If it comes up again... .I'll be consistent.

This morning... .it is as if it didn't happen.

FF

[Notwendy]

This is what I call the etch a sketch reaction. Recall the toy where you could draw a picture - lift the page- poof all gone.

I grew up with these scenes between my parents. Mom hollering, yelling, screaming crying. Sometimes she'd destroy things- break dishes. It was terrifying. The next morning, parents would be acting as if nothing happened. If I asked any questions about this, they would act as if nothing happened. No explanation ,no accountability.

This actually affected my own sense of reality. I thought I had heard and seen something, but if it didn't happen according to my parents ( and they were the grown ups) maybe it didn't happen at all?

Sometimes a sibling will mention something that happened - and I can not recall it at all. My parents were able to get me to not believe that they didn't happen. As I got older, my mother blamed me for them. I was so convinced of this that I believed that once I went to college, these scenes would stop. Since I didn't ever hear about them after I left home ( we were not allowed to speak of them) I didn't learn until years later that they didn't stop when I left home.

I'm telling you the child's perspective because they are witnesses to these scenes and while you understand them as an adult, they don't. Your kids are many ages. Young kids are magical thinkers. They don't have a good grasp of what is real and what is make believe. So denying my reality actually worked for them for a while, but it didn't help us kids to have to buy into that " it didn't happen" game.

I realize my parents had a tough situation and did the best they could with the circumstances they had. But your kids see what they see, and hear what they hear regardless of the "it didn't happen" approach.

[formflier]

Listening to stories like that... .are one of the many reasons that I'm going to go forward with family therapy/individual therapy for the kids. 

I'm going to let P figure out a best way forward on this and how to approach it.

Obviously will talk through and listen to the recording to see what I could have done better.  I think I talked to much... .once I sent kids to bed... perhaps I should have repeated it... .but basically each time that my wife started spewing things about me... .I would announce that was for private. 

Likely I fed the cycle. 

Sigh.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

This actually affected my own sense of reality. I thought I had heard and seen something, but if it didn't happen according to my parents ( and they were the grown ups) maybe it didn't happen at all?

Just second-ing what NotWendy says... .
This is the cause of my severe dissociative disorder.
Having to live in seperate realities made me confused what is real, made me question reality to the point of a severe dissociative disorder.

[flourdust]

A rough night, ff.

On the other hand ... .you successfully removed your kids from an abusive situation! BRAVO!

So your wife had an outburst afterwards. Could be an extinction burst. Regardless, you protected the kids, and she let you do it.

This is huge. 

[formflier]

It continued some this morning.  I was much calmer.

Of course the kids were directly disobedient to her... .that's what they see her do to me... .it's their model.

I did get her to go talk privately before she issued "final" punishment... .I listened to her... made sure I got all of her idea straight ... .she agreed that she had nothing else to say. 

Then... .she would not listen to "all" of my point of view before overtalking... .she eventually stood up, left the bedroom and said... ."I'm being disobedient to you and taking my kids swimming... ." in front of the kids.

I calmly invited her back to private room to pray, read Bible and work it out... .she said no.

Actually came back to room right before she left and "burst" in... saying "No you have me on tape being disobedient to you... .it's the only time I get to spend any time with my kids, because you squish me... "

Sigh... .listening to recording now... .trying to think through what... .if anything I could have done better... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

she issued "final" punishment

Wondering if ths bit was avoidable.  Meaning, the bit where she solo declares a punishment?

Why not together you two state, "SO and I have decided... ."

I think the goal you have been working on is displaying to the kids a partnership, or union of some sort.  I recall something about making her welcome or received? While I believe this pertained to her entering and diciplining when you were already engaged with kids, maybe same applies in a general sense?  (My recollection is from when she was attempting to sabbotage am bible time, but I cannot exactly recall goal.  I think it was something you got from P in how he framed what your objective should be, to be kept in mind.)

[Sunfl0wer]

"No you have me on tape being disobedient to you... .it's the only time I get to spend any time with my kids, because you squish me... "

My interpretation of this is she forces herself in a "disobedient child" schema mode with you intentionally to justify and play out her need to rebel against you.

Only way to remove yourself from this is to provide her less opportunities for rebellion, which means do not insist on anything, so then there is no "rule" for her to break.  (Yet I suspect you are already "picking your battles."

Not saying I know the balance for this, just sayin... .

Sometimes I think it doesn't matter the schema mode... .
So long as you got the theme in focus:
-My goal is to provide a Unified front with my wife to the kids
-My goal is to role model mutual respect between the adults of the house
-Or whatever that is

Then the rest is not needed to think about.

I only mention it because it could be a clue when she is behaving "disobedient" that you may be giving off a controlling vibe, maybe. (Or maybe she is responding to internal stuff, not stuff triggered by you, idk)

She sounds to just be expressing she feels stiffled to act within the constraints that you are requireing... .  This is actually very valid!  She must be stressed cause it is her natural tendency to triangulate and such, and you expecting and insisting on proper behavior IS stifling to her.  Seems a natural reaction of her to me.

[formflier]

So... .my wife and I were in the same room... .think big living room area.  Kids were doing normal kid things.  Kids were pressing hard to go swimming.  

They began mouthing off to their Mom... nothing horrid... but she appropriate stopped them to calm things.

In all honesty... .I would have done same thing... same time... .

Then kids begin being blatant about not listening to her... she ignores it... then snaps at them but keeps getting them to try and listen to her original message, vice dealing with the "real" issue of the blatant... .toss it in your face disobedience and disrespect.

Boy... .wonder where they get that from?

Then she starts to say... ."and your punishment for this will be"... . This is where traditionally we normally talk privately first.

Much different than telling a kid "do this right now... .and we'll talk later about consequences".  

What I want to avoid is either parent telling a kid, here are your consequences... .and then another parent changing all that up later.  Yep... .it has happened all to often.

At my wife's request, in front of the kids I use the phrase "Perhaps there is a better way to address this, can we talk privately... ." as the "signal" that is respectful... that we need to go talk.

Getting to the closed door meeting went fine, most of the meeting went fine.  She went first... I listened... .asked her what she wanted me to understand... .she finally confirmed there was nothing else that she wanted to say.

IN fact... giver her props... .she asks me what I want her to understand.

Then she starts cutting me off... .explaining my idea back to me before I finish talking.

There are several times I simply and "neutrally" say... ."May I explain my idea fully before you react to it... ."  Long pauses before she says "go ahead"

Anyway... .she never listened to the idea... .stormed out of the room... .discussed with kids that she was going to be disobedient (yes... she really said that to them) to me and take them swimming.

Left... .

Then she storms back in the house... ."jumps" through bedroom door and announces that I have her on tape being disobedient... .that I "squished" her to the point she "had to be" disobedient... .bunch more "typical" stuff...

Sigh... .

FF

[formflier]

My interpretation of this is she forces herself in a "disobedient child" schema mode with you intentionally to justify and play out her need to rebel against you.
 

Yes... .

I would add to this that part of rebelling is telling others how horrible her "parent" (me) is.

Looking at her FOO... .I can understand how, why she would want to play this out.  All three children openly talk about how horrible the parents, particularly the mother were... .and are to them.

With short periods of talking about them as if they were saints.

I suspect that there is no way for me to avoid this "schema" when she takes it to a certain level.  I will make sure and discuss this with P on Monday morning to see if I can minimize this... or perhaps eliminate it.



FF

[Cat Familiar]

Here's another possible interpretation of your wife's behavior:

My mother would start arguments with my father in front of me when I was a young child (and I would try to play peacemaker or act like a clown to distract them--but that's another topic).

She would taunt him and not "fight fair"--using anything, whether truth or lies, to try and incite him. He usually kept his calm. Sometimes I knew he was really mad when the vein on his forehead would pulse. Only once did she get him so angry that he raised a hand--and the look on her face was triumphant. It was as if she wanted him to behave badly so she could say that he was no better than her.

[Sunfl0wer]

Maybe before getting to the point of her readying to dish out consequences... .

Maybe earlier on you could have "backed her up?"  
It seems you agreed with her that the kids were not being repectful to her.
Would that have been a good time to speak up?
"Hey kids, mom has a point, better to work with her right now, use your ears more and see what you guys come up with."

Idk really how you guys talk, just wondering if standing up to side with your wife coulda helped her feel validated?  And helped kids to feel you two are on the same page?

Or maybe she woulda felt insulted, like you didn't trust her to handle it?... .idk... .juts throwing out something in case.

[formflier]

Or maybe she woulda felt insulted, like you didn't trust her to handle it?... .idk... .juts throwing out something in case.

She switches back and forth.  

The most consistent desire that she expresses... .and actually BC validated and said was good thing... .as did P, was for me to step in and handle disrespectful children.  If needed she would do that for me.

That way, you don't have a parent explaining to a kid why they should respect the parent doing the talking... .another "authority" shows up... .breaks the dynamic and points to authority.

Big leadership picture:  Remember the Al Haig moment of "I'm in charge here... ."... .much better to have others point to the authority.  (not really sure I wrote all that effectively... .anyway)

More often than not she expresses thanks to me for "elevating her"... .of course there is no warning or way to figure out that she doesn't want that... .

Usually it's a simple as

(ff) "Hey... .S8, is that a respectful way to talk to your mother?"

(S8) "No sir... ."

FF wife continues talking after this to a much more respectful child...

Of course... randomly... .(ff w) "How dare you interrupt me.  You never xyz... . You always abc... ."


Note:  To Cat Familiar's point... I have seen that "look of glee" when she gets the reaction she wants... .no idea how that "ranks" for what she is after.

Sigh... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

ff) "Hey... .S8, is that a respectful way to talk to your mother?"

I like this, makes sense, thanks for sharing.

[formflier]

 
P pushes me to use less words... .more direct.

I easily overthink and over explain... .

Not like you guys have ever noticed... .       

FF

[Verbena]

Re: Bad night here
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 07:09:36 AM »
Quote

This is what I call the etch a sketch reaction. Recall the toy where you could draw a picture - lift the page- poof all gone.

I grew up with these scenes between my parents. Mom hollering, yelling, screaming crying. Sometimes she'd destroy things- break dishes. It was terrifying. The next morning, parents would be acting as if nothing happened. If I asked any questions about this, they would act as if nothing happened. No explanation ,no accountability.

This actually affected my own sense of reality. I thought I had heard and seen something, but if it didn't happen according to my parents ( and they were the grown ups) maybe it didn't happen at all?


Notwendy's comments above struck a chord with me.  I am six months out from my divorce and still not  convinced my ex had BPD.  He never really fit the criteria.  Not that it matters anymore, but I still wonder  sometimes exactly what the deal is with him. 

I do know that he would erase things from his mind, claim that incidents/outbursts/behaviors of his never even occurred and really seem to believe it.  I realized after he finally left that
 this happened WAY more often than I had thought when I was married to him.  There was this "look" that he got sometimes when he would say he didn't know what I was talking about. 

I strongly suspect now he was disassociating during those times and that he learned to do that because of how he grew up.  It's a long story... .

Anyway, if I were in your shoes, FF, I think my main concern would be that your kids could have issues with this in their futures based on what they are seeing in your home.  They see their mom throw these tantrums and then act like they didn't happen.  As notwendy said, "No explanation, no accountability."  And it just keeps happening until it it's "normal" to them. 

Your kids, or at least the older ones, are bound to see the big contrast in healthy behavior from you and dysfunctional behavior from their mom, but her impact on them is still huge and I don't know how you can ever mitigate that completely. 

[Grey Kitty]

FF, you have often described your wife like two different women--one that is kind and reasonable, and one that is raging, paranoid, and unable to listen. It sounds like there is little inbetween, although the "bad" one is sometimes terse, a little surly, and likely to explode soon, although she hasn't yet.

These two personalities/moods/modes/whatever are very different. Don't try to come with one way of interacting with her (especially in front of the kids) which works for both.

Consistent boundary enforcement is the only thing the "bad" one responds to at all, and even that doesn't go all that well.

Think about how you support your children in dealing with both of them. For them, this bit of bad behavior "vanishing" as if it never happened clearly has an impact, as you heard from adults who lived through it. Try to find ways to validate their experience without picking a fight with your wife... .and without undermining her authority as a parent, or at least not undermining her authority in ways you don't have to do.

[Fian]

I would think it would be helpful to talk to your kids and apologize for both you and your wife for the outburst.  That you are trying to find a way to discuss issues with your wife without doing it in front of them.  I think that would validate that what your children saw was real, and if done properly doesn't put the blame fully on your wife (doing in reverse what she does to you).  It would also help them to understand that when you send them out of the room, you aren't punishing them.

[formflier]

you aren't punishing them.

Yep... .meeting with P tomorrow morning.  Then will be spending some time with my wife tomorrow night.

I hope that there is something my wife and I can jointly say to kids, but I'm not going to wait much for her to agree.  The kids do need to know what will happen, so it's not a shock and that they are not being punished.

FF

[Notwendy]

Of course the kids were directly disobedient to her... .that's what they see her do to me... .it's their model.

This makes sense. My parents on one hand taught me right from wrong, how to behave, how to be a good person, they brought me up with religion- like you are doing- and that came with a set of behaviors- honor your parents, don't bear false witness, do unto others as you would do unto you.

So, I had rules, but my mother behaved in ways that didn't follow the rules. No, she isn't a bad person, but she could yell at my father, and us, tell lies, not treat him or us according to the Golden Rule. Yet, somehow I was supposed to obey her?

Oh heck no, FF , by the time I was old enough to think for myself- I had lost respect for her. Who the heck would listen to someone who did things I wouldn't want to do.  I just saw how she behaved and realized I didn't want to act like that.

Fortunately for me, I was a pretty good teen. I didn't rebel much or do crazy things, but I didn't respect my mother and so I didn't obey her, unless of course my father enforced it. But it didn't make sense that I behaved better than she did, yet he was getting all over my case for anything I did.

[Notwendy]

This was my teen age view. The idea of mental illness was not presented, in fact, we were to pretend that the things we say/heard didn't happen and not allowed to talk about it. Mother was presented as normal - and we were blamed for the problem. But then, I had books, examples of right and wrong ( Bible, movies, TV, teachers ) and as I got older and spent time at friends' houses- other examples of parents as well as relatives who didn't have BPD.  My mother is in general a decent human - not someone who would break the law, do really bad things, but she didn't always behave the way I was taught to behave. There were consequences for me at home, but not for her and this didn't make sense.

I took my first psychology class in high school and began to wonder. By college, I took another class. Not enough info ( or training- I didn't major in psych) to actually figure this out, but enough to realize something was going on with her.

Where my kids were concerned, even though it felt like I was speaking badly of their grandma- I introduced the idea of mental illness and BPD once they began to notice too. I felt it was important to reinforce their sense of reality, not deny it. I didn't want them to hate her as a teen, like I did. However, I also didn't want them to think it was OK to behave like that or that they had to tolerate being treated poorly if she was angry at them- because I didn't want them to grow up thinking this is OK from any relationship they were in in the future.  

I'm telling you this because, your kids are growing up and forming their own ideas- and those ideas could be different from your own. They also have a different relationship with their mother than you do. They are also not on equal ground with either of you as you are adults and they are children. I don't know the best way to deal with these kind of nights with your children, but I hope your T will help you reinforce that what they saw/heard was real and see this with understanding and compassion, and with preserving their sense of reality and self esteem.

[formflier]

because I didn't want them to grow up thinking this is OK from any relationship they were in in the future.  
 

This is a good summary of where I am at and a point my P keeps making.

She also talks about "breaking the cycle".  

It was powerful to draw out the family tree... .on both sides.

There was dsyfunction on my side, with my Mom's mom.  There was a HUGE different in the way my Father's parents acted and my Mom's mom.  

While my parents didn't explain their decisions clearly to me (likely appropriate as a child) what the did was use boundaries to keep her dysfunction at arms length.  

She lived 6 hours away and despite years of manipulation they didn't allow her to move closer.  

Our visits were short.  Quick weekend visits.  I could tell my parents structured many activiities, not much time was spent "chewing the fat" (just talking).  Note:  I'm from the South... .even as a child I noticed this HUGE difference.

We could visit my Dad's parents (going to the farm) and stay for weeks.  Sometimes I was left there for days at a time.  (I was only child).  My parents would then "go on vacation" without me.   Ummm... .yeah, now as an adult... .I realize it is likely they were likely going on "romantic" trips.

Anyway... .lay that next to the family tree on my wife's side.  There are NO... .and I mean no relationships for several generations without major dysfunction.

My wife is the best of the lot (I realized I am biased... .but this is true) because they ignored her, vice "poured" dysfunction into her.  Her parents were obvious about wanting a boy and a girl.  They already had that and then my wife was born last.  Even as an adult I could see the major difference in how they "dealt" with her and her siblings.

So... .my wife figured things out on her own.  Is the first... .and only child (to include numerous first cousins) to graduate from college.  Her brother, in the most massive passive aggressive move I have ever seen in my life, lacked one class... .3 credit hours to get his degree in computer science from a "Big 10" university.  

He walked away with over $60k in debt and wouldn't go back.  His Mom and sisters begged... manipulated... .threatened... .cajoled... . Epic passive defiance.

He now works a factory job 14 hours away, is fairly reclusive but has a stable life.  Is in some sort of a relationship with a "strong woman" that is a high achiever (has PhD and trappings of a successful life)


FF

[Notwendy]

I've made a point to break the cycle too.

Understanding my FOO has been helpful- not as means to blame- as we have to take responsibility for our own issues, but to look at the patterns.

There was a big difference between BPD mom's family and my father's family. We used to spend long visits with them and they would even have us stay with them during school breaks. Mom's FOO never invited us to do that. They are clannish- you are either one of them ( enmeshed ) or not. They treated us kids as "outsiders" while my father's side embraced her.

The helpful part is understanding what dysfunction we learned as kids to survive in our families- but then took into our adult world where it didn't serve us well, and learn to change it.

While co-dependency doesn't appear as bad as BPD ( and is more amenable to change with therapy ) I still think it causes dysfunction in families. Seems to also pair up with BPD, addictions, dysfunction.

[formflier]

  They are clannish- you are either one of them ( enmeshed ) or not. 

This is my wife's family... .exactly!

The don't "decide" things... .they just "have been talking about stuff"... .for a while... .and the group sort of flows that way.  The reality seems to be everyone stumbling around in the dark... .trying to decide what decisions result in the "queen" either "being happy" or "not raging". 

Then... .when there is a relative period of calm... .they all talk and congratulate each other on what good decisions they have made... .how wise. 

Perhaps you have noticed... .but I'm a process guy... .fairly direct and clear.  So, if you ask what I decided to do on an issue... .likely there would be a clear answer.  If you asked how I decided something... .I definitely could tell you.  Granted... sometimes the answer might be "I pulled that decision out of my a$$... ." which means I knew a decision had to be made... .I had no idea... .so I pulled the trigger on something. 

Or the even better southern version... ."Y'all hold my beer for a second and watch this... ."

Anyway... .meandering back to the real point.  When I ask how they decide things... .they all give looks of bewilderment and hostility... .sort of flashing back and forth.  Or if you ask them details of what was decided... .the tap dancing starts.

Looking back I have memories of her family talking about people that "walked away"... .moved away... .whatever.  It was always negative.

I was on the outer rings of her family for a while... .I have been totally gone from it (other than being married to my wife) for over a year. 

It's amazing how refreshed and happy I am with that part of my current situation.

FF