We lost him

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

After the drama of the past weeks, my dh and my mother talked to ss about why he lied so much to his mother. Answer was (as always) "i don't know". They kept talking to him, asking for his wishes and how he wants his future to be.
Ss started crying and then let go of what made him feel miserable for months. He wants to be back with his mom because she doesn't demand him to make any effort about anything, ever. He often states that he doesn't need school, he doesn't want to fulfill even the most basic tasks and that he just doesn't care about what dh and i think about his sense of entitlement (we have to provide, he doesn't. Oh, mom doesn't either). He stated he used these lies to make mom take him back.
He painted a picture of himself with his mother and her partner and the new baby in her hometown and said that this is what je wants from life. No sign of dh and me. He says he knows that we can take better care of him, but that mon will somehow manage life with him now that she has a bf. He excused everything. Being sent away by her twice (foster care and then to us), not having a room for years, just everything. He imagines that when with her, he will just be able to play video games instead of having to do tasks. And mom says that it's okay for her. They will just have fun all day. And school in her town is easier (?).



He made 100% clear that he wants to go. I just don't what do think of this. It feels like we lost him to her manipulation...

[catclaw]

After the drama of the past weeks, my dh and my mother talked to ss about why he lied so much to his mother. Answer was (as always) "i don't know". They kept talking to him, asking for his wishes and how he wants his future to be.
Ss started crying and then let go of what made him feel miserable for months. He wants to be back with his mom because she doesn't demand him to make any effort about anything, ever. He often states that he doesn't need school, he doesn't want to fulfill even the most basic tasks and that he just doesn't care about what dh and i think about his sense of entitlement (we have to provide, he doesn't. Oh, mom doesn't either). He stated he used these lies to make mom take him back.
He painted a picture of himself with his mother and her partner and the new baby in her hometown and said that this is what je wants from life. No sign of dh and me. He says he knows that we can take better care of him, but that mon will somehow manage life with him now that she has a bf. He excused everything. Being sent away by her twice (foster care and then to us), not having a room for years, just everything. He imagines that when with her, he will just be able to play video games instead of having to do tasks. And mom says that it's okay for her. They will just have fun all day. And school in her town is easier (?).



He made 100% clear that he wants to go. I just don't what do think of this. It feels like we lost him to her manipulation...

[NorthernGirl]

Hello catclaw    I am sorry you are going through this.

There is so much of your story that is familiar. In our case, the comments you make apply to two different SS both who are now adults. SS22 with special needs has many of the issues you have mentioned. He gets caught up in how much easier it is at his mom's house. No chores, TV 24-7, junk food, etc. Years ago his mom gave him a smartphone even after DH said he wasn't ready to handle one. He is now on his cell all the time, right up until he goes to sleep. He has a poor memory and doesn't seem to respond to consequences and change his behaviour.

Years ago SS was pressured by his mom to tell the Guardianship office that he only wanted her as his guardian. Eventually that changed because he realizes he wants some independence and he can see his mom won't give him that. He now says he can see it is better that his Dad is his guardian. But he still wants to go over and hang at her house where there are no rules. He tries to sneak over there or come up with excuses why he needs to be there.

Meanwhile SS24 - an addict - is living at his mom's so SS22 is not allowed to be there. SS22 says he just wants to make his mom feel better (she says she no longer feels like his Mom because his Dad got Guardianship) plus he doesn't want our rules.

SS24 has long realized that he can get money (to feed his addiction) from his mom if he tells her bad things about his Dad. So he plays the game. And in his case, it is a deadly one. We pray he can break free. His T's have said DH just needs to keep being consistent so if SS24 decides he wants to change, he knows where to turn.

Your SS says he wants to live with his mom. What does his Dad think? A counsellor might help SS but it sounds like you are having trouble with that. Is there someone else your SS can talk to about this who might give him a balanced view? In our case, some family friends SS22 trusts have helped,

[catclaw]

Hey NothernGirl,

thank you for your reply.

Well, SS goes to a specialized play-therapy programme but he never opens up. Also, it's just an offer for him to take advantage of until we have a court decision on whether or not BPDm's confirmation to SS getting the long-run therapy is substituted by the court.
He tends to throw in facts when asked about what he wants. Like "well, the logical thing for me would be staying with dad and catclaw because they can provide for me" or something like that.

He idealizes his past and forgets about everything that doesn't fit his need right now. His mother tells everyone who didn't want to know "SS was never in foster care" (we have all the documents about this and we paid 75% of the costs, even though DH was not informed until months after SS' placement there) and right now, this is what he says as well. That he was never in foster care, that mom deserves a 2nd (or 3rd? or 4th?) chance and so on, which does not at all sound like him. I mean she put him in foster care BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO RENOVATE HER FLAT (!) which took her almost 2 years. Then she sent him to live with us baecause she wanted to get a driver's license (which is something you obviously can't do when you have a kid *rollseyes*) which until now she didn't get. Mind you, she has never had a job, so she had more than enough time on hand. But she has another baby now. Why on earth does she think she will manage this?

It seems we have 2 Options and I don't actually know which is worse:

1- DH goes for full custody and SS stays with us. we have loads of documents that paint a horrible picture of her parenting skills, so we might succeed in this. In this case, she will keep manipulating SS into not doing anything because he doesn't need any of this, as it's the case right now. He denies everything and we will have trouble keeping him on track, because we deny him his luxury-life with mom.

2- We give up on the fight and let SS move back with his mother, to at least not fall into financial ruin on the long run. She kept saying for years that she feels poorly treated and deserves more respect (i.e. constant access to our life) and even threatened DH saying "well, you could have had it easier, now it's too late". We're 100% positive that she will make life a living hell for us as soon as SS is back with her. We had that kind of r/s already when SS was still with her.

Either way, there is not the slightest chance for some peace and quiet for once.

[soundofmusicgirl]

catclaw I am so sorry. I know hearing something like this out of the child that you have worried and taken care off and fought for is a terrible and incredible painful thing.

If I remember correctly he is only 9 yrs old? I do not think that a child that age can really make a logical and educated decision about his living arrangements. It is in his DNA that he wants to chose the easy way. I personally think he is still at an age that things can be turned around for him with therapy (once BPDmom allows that). I also don´t think that he should get to chose. Those kids are so torn up inside they don´t know left from right.
We had a situation a while ago, where SS`s needed to make a decision who will perform a religous ordinance for them. Of course their BPDmom did everything in her power to brainwash them months and months ahead of schedule that her father and brother should do it. When my DH talked to his sons they said that BPDmom had told them they can´t change their mind. Then my DH approached their church leader and said that he really wants to perform this for his boys and there should really be no question. The church leader was in a tough spot and decided the kids get to chose. To us it was perfectly clear that they really could not chose because they had been brainwashed so badly.
I feel that your SS is in a similar place emotionally. He does not have the tools in his belt to understand what is really happening. I think showing empathy and validation is a good tool here.

[NorthernGirl]

It seems we have 2 Options and I don't actually know which is worse:

I agree with soundofmusicgirl that if your SS is young, he cannot make the decision. Even if he was older, given his challenges he still may not be able to make the best decision for himself. In our case, the fact that SS22 required a guardian at 18 is because it was decided he cannot make major decisions for himself. Ironically the guardian role is meant to keep the person safe from people taking of advantage of him and the person who tries to do that most is his own mom. She was his joint guardian for years and was the one who wanted to be his sole guardian.

DH was faced with the same two options years ago. I think if he had been on his own DH may have chosen to just let SS22 live with his Mom and not fought to have more time with SS22 or be a guardian. SS22 said he wanted to live with his Mom or have her as his guardian just to not upset her; which is not what is best for him. I have told DH all along the decisions are his to make but I have raised my voice if I thought he was taking the easy way out. In hindsight, DH can see now how destructive it would have been for SS22 to be in his Mom's control, but at the time of each decision DH wondered if the fight was worth it. He wanted to believe that as his ex would do what was best for her child, even when all the evidence said otherwise.

I think the decision to fight was best for SS22, who is now much more able to achieve his potential, but not necessarily best for DH and me. My life has been much more stressful and chaotic. We had spent likely spent a huge amount of money on lawyers. I live in a home where SS22 continues to lie and be manipulative as he tries to please his mom. But I also know that if I had not pushed DH to fight for what was best for his son, I would feel the guilt. I would know we left SS22 in the hands of a mentally ill woman who struggles daily to do what is best for her children and who does not recognize that she is ill.

This stuff isn't easy. DH and I have had to had many serious discussions about this and still have a long road ahead but think that so far the fight has been worth it for SS22. Get whatever input you can to help with the decisions you need to make, including you doing what is best for yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

We separated and divorced when our son was 3.5 years old or so.  For years every indication from him was that he preferred being and remaining with me.  He consistently begged to stay longer with me and delay returns to his mother.  However, when he was in 3rd grade, 9 years old, court granted my Change of Circumstances filing as the primary advance step to seek full custody.  That's when a GAL was assigned.  After the very next exchange, he got in my car and declared, "I want 50/50 time with my mom."  Clearly that was not of his own volition, until then he always wanted to spend more time with me.  Two years before I had moved up from alternate weekends to equal time.  So after all those years he had become old enough, and she was influential enough, to be persuaded to be "fair".  However, it wasn't about being fair, it was about what was best for him.

[Nope]

Pretty much the same situation here with SS12. He may not want to be uprooted to his mom's place since it is out of state, but he certainty covets her home's lack of rules, chores, and accountability. It isn't so much that we have two options, because sending him back to her is really no option at all. It's more the reality that we will spend the next seven years fighting with him. Forcing him to take showers, forcing him to do his homework and chores, forcing him to treat us respectfully. We will spend at least the next seven years fighting tooth and nail to prepare this kid to survive as an adult. Paying for counseling, trying different therapies, going to appointment after appointment and parent teacher conference. Not to mention the fights we'll continue to have with his uBPDm, who will consistently be one more obstacle to progress.

Northern Girl hits the nail on the head in recognizing that she and her DH did what was best for her SS, but not necessarily what was best for her and DH. What DH and I decided is that no matter what ultimately happens with SS12, we can live with it so long as we can honestly say we did everything we possibly could. So if that means years of fighting then that's what we are going to continue to do.