I think I've found my attorney

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have posted my story on other board, but wanted to send an update. I spent the past 8-9 months trying to understand this disorder, learning to accept it and realizing I am not going to be able to change my wife's condition or behavior. I have met or spoken with many family law attorneys. I was a little surprised that many of them did not seem to be familiar with the diagnosis of BPD. They were also not familiar with the concept of a high conflict personality.

Finally, I found someone who understood. I summarized behaviors on the first meeting, and after a while the attorney asked "do you think this is BPD?" The attorney also knew about many of the recommended books, and knew the work of Bill Eddy.

It still surprises me that every attorney has described the situation as extreme. My story seems as common as anyone else's on this site, but it seems like on a day-to-day basis attorneys don't see as much of this as I would think.

More updates to follow, but seems like that is a big task out of the way.

[lpheal]

I have posted my story on other board, but wanted to send an update. I spent the past 8-9 months trying to understand this disorder, learning to accept it and realizing I am not going to be able to change my wife's condition or behavior. I have met or spoken with many family law attorneys. I was a little surprised that many of them did not seem to be familiar with the diagnosis of BPD. They were also not familiar with the concept of a high conflict personality.

Finally, I found someone who understood. I summarized behaviors on the first meeting, and after a while the attorney asked "do you think this is BPD?" The attorney also knew about many of the recommended books, and knew the work of Bill Eddy.

It still surprises me that every attorney has described the situation as extreme. My story seems as common as anyone else's on this site, but it seems like on a day-to-day basis attorneys don't see as much of this as I would think.

More updates to follow, but seems like that is a big task out of the way.

[livednlearned]

I'm glad you're making progress and found someone you are comfortable with.

Did your attorney recommend specific strategies or tactics to help you reach your goal?

One of the reasons it can be so important to have an L who "gets it" is that he or she will not try to talk you out of doing what you know is best for the child. I understand we might not get the best-case scenario right away, but what is the plan for getting it eventually?

A good L should be able to map that out, and be realistic about how long things will take and how much it will cost.

And have a good grasp of the judge's ruling patterns.

[lpheal]

Did your attorney recommend specific strategies or tactics to help you reach your goal?

L did have specific strategies, which was different than the initial attorneys I met with and initially retained. Previously I had been told there wasn't much I could do to prevent my wife getting primary physical custody. Maybe I misunderstood them, but it seemed like the wrong answer. It really has been helpful to talk to some more attorneys.

There has been verbal and physical abuse in my case, so L said the next time she punches, hits, scratches or throws anything at me get my phone out, start recording, walk away, lock myself in a room (keep recording her reaction) and then call the police. When they arrive calmly explain what happened and play the recording (which would start after she did something abusive) for the police. I live in a state that doesn't permit recording conversations, but L said it would be okay if I did it in this manner. Even though it is highly likely she would start acting completely normal when the police arrive, the attorney felt if I explained what happened and then played the recording this would result in her removal from the house. If there is documentation of a police call with removal from the home L said going forward everything will be in my favor in terms of physical custody of our child. From there I would get a TRO, and begin the divorce process. Wife would have to stay away from the house and our D until court hearing for the RO. L felt I should send a strong message upfront, and this was best way to do it for me and D. Also would make it less likely I would have to pay spousal support if the abuse was documented in this manner.

If the above scenario doesn't unfold, the other option is to submit documentation (journal, pictures) of the abuse and request a DV TRO from the judge. They just need a slight suspicion of guilt more than innocence (51% I was told) to issue the TRO. I also probably have enough to get it in this manner, but the scenario 1 is a slam dunk for me for custody and everything else. If the DV TRO is approved in scenario 2 though, it's also to my benefit the rest of the process.

L also highly recommended I see a marriage counselor. They said people tend to use the L as the therapist, but their hourly rates are much higher!

L did not think my wife could drag out the case too long, even if it went to court. She could delay several months with certain requests, but not much longer than that. Maybe it's because I live in a no-fault state? I've read all of these horror stories here, so was surprised when L said she couldn't delay it too long.  L said the cases that take the longest here are when there are businesses that have to be appraised, which does not apply to me.

[livednlearned]

I read a bunch of research a while back about dads and primary physical custody that went something like this: it is true that more moms get primary physical custody, but it is also true that more moms ask for it AND fewer dads contest it.

I think that Ls may fall into a sort of confirmation bias, telling dad clients that they are less likely to get it, when one of the reasons that might be true is because the Ls are telling them that 

In my case, my L told me full custody is very difficult in my state, even as a mom. It took me a while, but I was consistent and as far as I can tell, there were no consequences or repercussions to holding my ground, except that it took everyone a while to get on the same page with me. I'm glad I had that consistency, whether it had any strategic advantage or not I'll never know. I have to imagine the judge took it into account on some level, tho.

L also highly recommended I see a marriage counselor. They said people tend to use the L as the therapist, but their hourly rates are much higher!

  This is so true!

But wait, do you mean she is suggesting you and your wife see the MC together?

What helped me was having my T as a sounding board so that I did not self-sabotage. It's appears to be a thing for appeaser types to try and negotiate with ourselves as a way to avoid conflict. And that doesn't work in family law court.

L did not think my wife could drag out the case too long, even if it went to court. She could delay several months with certain requests, but not much longer than that. Maybe it's because I live in a no-fault state? I've read all of these horror stories here, so was surprised when L said she couldn't delay it too long.  L said the cases that take the longest here are when there are businesses that have to be appraised, which does not apply to me.

I am curious if delays are caused more by bad lawyers than stonewalling ex spouses. After my L cut a deal to reschedule without consulting me, I asked her to always ask me first, and she honored that.

Ls have collegial circles and they have a weirdly courteous way of working, similar to the deferential demeanor towards judges. They try to maintain those relationships because they do backroom deals, giving each other breaks here and there as favors. It sounds a lot shadier than I imagine it really is, but it's good to know that this stuff happens so you can watch for it.

The fact your L understands BPD may mean she is already working for you, tho it can never hurt to stay vigilant, especially the amount of money we give them.

[lpheal]

do you mean she is suggesting you and your wife see the MC together?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. L suggested I see a therapist not a marriage counselor. L said it can be a difficult process and having a therapist can really be helpful. L was very clear that I should leave this marriage as soon as possible, definitely well before the ten year mark when it becomes a "long term marriage" and creates potential for long term spousal support. L said don't even get to year nine so it isn't up for debate.

One final issue L brought up was I should pay to obtain an employment assessment for my wife (it has a different name). That way she (and more importantly I) would know what her employment and salary potential is likely to be. This would reduce potential spousal and child support.

This whole process feels so bizarre at times. She has been in normal mode the past two days, so it's makes it really strange to do all of this planning where the left hand can't tell what my right hand is doing. I'll thank myself when she swings back to the other mode though.

[ForeverDad]

I live in a state that doesn't permit recording conversations, but L said it would be okay if I did it in this manner. Even though it is highly likely she would start acting completely normal when the police arrive, the attorney felt if I explained what happened and then played the recording this would result in her removal from the house. If there is documentation of a police call with removal from the home L said going forward everything will be in my favor in terms of physical custody of our child. From there I would get a TRO, and begin the divorce process. Wife would have to stay away from the house and our D until court hearing for the RO. L felt I should send a strong message upfront, and this was best way to do it for me and D. Also would make it less likely I would have to pay spousal support if the abuse was documented in this manner.

I starting a little recording a few months before our separation.  I could see her looking sideways at me and I knew that her suspicious glances were her trying to build herself up to rejecting me.  By then she had driven away most friends, all my relatives and was galloping headlong into "me and my son against the world".  Sure enough, I was dumped too when things escalated to a 911 domestic dispute call.  Yes I had recorded the incident.  I live in a state that allows recording.  Police and CPS listened but court (or lawyer?) ignored my recorded proofs.  I've come to conclude that court expects the initial allegations around separation time will fade over time.  However, that perspective doesn't work with these acting-out PDs, reasonableness and reasoning doesn't automatically return.  For many, myself included, our ex-spouses saw allegations as a way to make us appear worse than them and so the allegations just kept coming.

I think you can quietly start recording beforehand as you discern the raging about to start.  Of course, anything recorded must never, ever, have you saying or doing anything aggressive.  Hold your tongue, don't respond to cursing with cursing.  Picture the recording played for professional audiences, police, investigators, evaluators, judge.  You can't let them get the impression this is just a bickering couple where both are at fault.  As some have written here, you have to be virtually an angel.

Lastly, I'll address your fear of judicial wrath for recording.  Low odds of that happening.  I've been here over a decade and judges getting peeved over recording complaints have only been reported by barely a handful of members here.  And the judicial ire was, basically, admonishment to stop recording.  Some of that, if memory serves right, was because children were recorded also and courts don't want the children involved in the parental conflict.

L did not think my wife could drag out the case too long, even if it went to court. She could delay several months with certain requests, but not much longer than that. Maybe it's because I live in a no-fault state? I've read all of these horror stories here, so was surprised when L said she couldn't delay it too long.  L said the cases that take the longest here are when there are businesses that have to be appraised, which does not apply to me.

My divorce was nearly two years... .without consulting my logs, 2 months to get temp order, 2 months for mediation, 4 months for court social worker's Parental Investigation, 5 months for the Custody Evaluation, 2 months for settlement conference, 4 months to scheduled trial (turned into settlement minutes before trial start) and 2 months to the final decree.  Probably a few continuances in there too.

My lawyer had estimated 6 months for divorce without children, 7-9 months with.  He was way off.  My then-stbEx had a very favorable temp order and she delayed as much as possible.  But that was with a preschooler.  My estimation is that divorces with small children can be the longest.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Your L sounds like a good worker.  Most of all, I wouldn't care if a L heard of BPD, let's face it, most court systems are open for business (and backlogged) because of High Conflict Personalities - it's just lawyers probably call them the cash crop.  However, if your L is assertive without being abusive (as recommended in Splitting if I recall) I think you can press forward with confidence.  And as was said, L all have to see each other the next day after a court "battle", so there's sort of a professional courtesy that they give lots of slack to lawyers and judges that they probably had coffee with last week.

As for recording, for the most part, you're not collecting evidence - which would be suppressed if gotten illegally.  Rather you are recording what is reasonably within your "space" for the purpose of protecting yourself - like video surveillance at the gas station.  The recording job is to keep you out of jail for a night, not always to prove your wife's behavior.  In your state it sounds like you need two party consent for admissible evidence.  Bear in mind, that if the other person is fully aware you are recording, and continues her conduct towards you, they are consenting to the recording.  I wouldn't want to be the one to argue much for admitting a recording made thusly, but, the premise is there.  Most states are single party consent, in which one person can audio / video record what is in their presence. In almost everywhere, recording secretly when you are not present and a part of the event, is violating the law.  No phone tapping, setting a recorder and leaving, etc... .  People have gotten away with keystroke loggers and computer records, but usually because at some point, both parties consented to the use.

Ipheal - I know what you mean about when your wife is in "normal" mode, you doubt your resolve to carry forward with divorce.  But it's nice to reaffirm your decision when she goes off the rails.  I get it.  I am still stuck because of that.  I think of those non-psychotic moments as the spoonful of sugar that helps the poison go down. 

[lpheal]

Ipheal - I know what you mean about when your wife is in "normal" mode, you doubt your resolve to carry forward with divorce.  But it's nice to reaffirm your decision when she goes off the rails.  I get it.  I am still stuck because of that.  I think of those non-psychotic moments as the spoonful of sugar that helps the poison go down. 

This is the hardest part of the process for me up until recently, only considering the "normal" moments and not looking at the entirety of the relationship. It still seems weird to be having "normal" conversations with a rational wife who makes good points and has good input, can discuss plans for the future, etc, then switching (sometimes within minutes) to hearing the same person say they are done with you and this relationship, they are never having sex with me again (which is now true for 15 months), I must be gay (sorry, not interested in sex with someone who spits on me when angry), me and my family are all f***faces, I ruined my body to have YOUR baby, and on and on.

We went on vacation last week, and she has been in a better mood since then. There were some minor events (minor on a scale which includes abuse as most severe) during the trip, but nothing terrible. At least mentally I didn't fall for it this time though, as I think I would have this same time last year. Also her parents were on the trip and at one point I saw her mother slap her father on the arm when she got mad at him for a minor infraction. My wife didn't see it and I didn't mention it. When I saw that I realized the origin of my wife's problems (her own mother), and also affirmed in my mind that I was not going to be that guy in 30 years (and her dad is a really good person).

I just need to decide exactly what I want before moving forward. I know I'm ahead of things in this paragraph, but I do think it's important to think about. The presumption in my state is 50/50 custody. I could get that by default without a fight, but can't decide if I need to fight a very difficult battle for more than that. With 50/50 custody in a no-fault divorce state, L said it would be really hard for my wife to drag this out more than a few extra months (since this assumes no custody evaluation). I would say I am subjected to bad behavior on a 90/10 ratio (90% bad, 10% good), but my D3 gets a 10/90 or maybe 5/95 ratio at least right now (when I am around). So would it be better to take the 50/50 and run with it? When D3 gets older and strives for more independence and that ratio changes will she then be able to decide for herself to spend more time with me? If I press for more time now, D3 would then be raised partly by daycare or a nanny because I do work a lot. Is that really better for her now than a mother who (at least for her) is pretty good at least 90% of the time? D3 will have more time in preschool and kindergarten as well in the next 18-24 months, so I feel like that would add up to not as much time around someone dysfunctional. A long drawn out divorce could be equally (or more) damaging.

My wife mostly has a mix of waif and hermit characteristics. I seem to trigger worse behaviors in the other categories. I have read Splitting by Bill Eddy and also wonder if the response to divorce can be predicted with even more precision based on the subtype?

[ForeverDad]

I bore the brunt of a lot extensive verbal abuse.  My spouse knew what would be most hurtful to me and wielded it like a sword.  If she was really ramped up, ranting and raging, I was her dumpee.  "You're a woman, ___, I wear the pants!"  "You have cancer in your brain, your penis... ."  That stuff was devastating, so crushing.  The one who had years before been my best and closest friend was calling me Evil, Judas Iscariot (who betrayed Jesus with a kiss) and Satan the Devil.  Yes, literally she threw those at me.

Also other stuff that fit into scary parental alienation such as "Papi no te quiere pero yo te quiero."  (Daddy doesn't love you but mommy does.)  Fortunately he was quite young and for years he was daddy's boy.  It wasn't until he finished 3rd grade that she was able to influence him to feel he had to be fair.  Until then, from 3 yo to 9 yo, he always asked for more time with me but once she saw she might soon lose more time to me she primed him to not want to upset the equal time we had at that time.

However, as bad as the verbal attacks feel now, in time it will get better.  Consider this as a type of vicious hazing, it's not the end of the world, but the darkness of the tunnel with light peeking through in the distance.

[livednlearned]

My wife mostly has a mix of waif and hermit characteristics. I seem to trigger worse behaviors in the other categories. I have read Splitting by Bill Eddy and also wonder if the response to divorce can be predicted with even more precision based on the subtype?

This is a really important question!

Eddy did a webinar where he talks about different kinds of danger in BPD divorces. First, he makes the distinction between BPD and HCP (high conflict person). In addition to having a PD, an HCP tends to recruit negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, and has a target (you). It is not necessarily a pwBPD who makes for a high-conflict divorce, according to Eddy, it is an HCP.

The other thing he mentions is that there are roughly three levels of severity to consider:

+ generally cooperative, not dangerous
+not cooperative, not dangerous
+not cooperative, dangerous

Separate from Eddy, I remember reading about internalizing depressive BPD as a sub-type, which I speculate is close to waif or "quiet" borderline? This sub-type was described as being at higher risk for being suicidal, a different kind of danger to themselves.

Some of the unknowns in your situation have to do with the L she selects -- if it is an aggressive L, then the custody battle could very well escalate beyond what either of you anticipated. If you both have an assertive L, then the fight could be contained and neutralized.

Another unknown is how resilient your child is, by disposition and genetics. My son is not emotionally resilient and I wish I got out earlier with maximum custody. Your D may be more resilient.

Child psychologists say that the critical years are ages 1-6, though from what I have read, especially for kids with sensitive genotypes, the key years seem to be 1-3. How you help your D3 navigate her mother's severe emotional immaturity could offset the damage done, especially if there is a skilled child T helping her develop her personhood and deal with her mom's extreme anxiety in healthy ways.

That may be part of what you focus on in your case, getting decision-making in areas that will make an enormous difference to D3's mental well-being.

And you can always go back and modify custody if you have to. You'll only be able to introduce new stuff, nothing that pre-dates the previous hearing, at least that's how it works where I live.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Another book to consider is "Understanding the Borderline Mother." by Lawson.  I found it to be quite accurate and insightful, and really helped me a perspective for the kids' welfare, as well as understanding better the types of BPD.  I also stumbled across me as the fairy tale "Hunter" - which was a little more true that I'd like.  But, that helps with a sense of self and understanding my role in this mess.  

There are several good books on children and divorce.  I think bpdfamily lists them in the books section.

Ipheal - great point about the damage from a divorce that ends in your favor, but with so much damage that you would be better off with a honorable loss.  I have learned the phrase "win by loosing as fast as you can." So, decide the absolute priorities, and use everything else as chips to bargain with - and quit while it's good-enough.

[lpheal]

he makes the distinction between BPD and HCP (high conflict person). In addition to having a PD, an HCP tends to recruit negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, and has a target (you). It is not necessarily a pwBPD who makes for a high-conflict divorce, according to Eddy, it is an HCP.

Another unknown is how resilient your child is, by disposition and genetics. My son is not emotionally resilient and I wish I got out earlier with maximum custody. Your D may be more resilient.

The optimistic part of me feels like my wife would not want her behaviors to be made public. So she might agree to a reasonable middle ground if it avoids court. If she feels like she has nothing to lose because she has lost on all fronts the switch will flip and watch out. I've noticed she gets a little intimidated by assertive women at times, but doesn't have a problem getting confrontational with men. The L I have decided on is a woman, who seems assertive but not aggressive. I did interview another female L who I felt would have been aggressive and not intimidated at all by my wife or her behavior. At first I thought that would be perfect, but further reading and advice here convinced me otherwise.

Your comments about children are appreciated. I wish I knew how D3 would react. This is the area I am trying to understand now.