How hard do I push for a talk about "modeling good behavior"

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So... in front of D4 and while I was actively engaged in cleaning up the living room, putting things away, etc etc... .my wife gets frustrated with the amount of junk the kids had piled on the bench so she picked it up an flung it against the stairs.  So... 5-6 feet.  She then went on about her business of going to the park.

I give it a few minutes and as she and D4 are getting ready to leave I ask her about her plans for the stuff in the floor.

ff wife "The kids need to learn to put things away better"  (a non answer)

me "I would appreciate it if you could pick this up before you leave... "

ff wife "There is stuff around everywhere that needs to be put away... "

me "please put the stuff away you put on the floor"
 
ff wife  Some of the response was unintelligible but basic gist was she wasn't going to do it...

me "That's a jerk move to toss stuff in the floor and block my path as I'm trying to clean up... "

ff wife  Some sort of blather as she walks away to the park

Then the text comes... .one big one.  Perhaps 20 minutes later.

am sorry you are unhappy with the me clearing off the bench so that the kids bags can be put there where they belong.   I do not appreciate you calling me names.  The person home when the kids get off the bus needs to be there helping them succeed in putting their things where they belong.  Our home needs to be cared for. There is stuff sitting everywhere it does not belong. Our children need to be trained to put their things where they belong immediately through someone being there to remind them and by modeling that behavior ourselves. Step 1 involves clearing off the bench and putting their bags on it where they belong. Step two involves the kids putting the things that were on the bench where they belong. I did step 1 so I could walk to the door without tripping over their bags. The kids can do step two when they get back from the park. I do not believe asking me to pick up their things for them is appropriate.

my first text

hey... let's talk when you get home!  

6 minutes later I text the following

Please enjoy the park.  I hope that before we put the kids to work sorting through that stuff, that we can have time to talk parenting strategy.

She gets home and is really weird... .barely acknowledging me.  Sits on porch kinda sulking.  Send D12 in to clean up the stuff.

I considered putting a stop to it... .but didn't.  

Wife went in bedroom and locked door.  Then locked herself in bathroom for a long shower after unlocking bedroom

She said she was having a wonderful day.  Went on a field trip to a baseball game.  Says had great time.

Seemed really pleasant until she snapped and tossed the stuff.


So, on the one hand it's good to get back to peace.  On the other hand, I'm very uncomfortable with an adult throwing a tantrum and tossing stuff about and having another person clean it up.  I certainly wasn't going to touch the stuff at all.

No acknowledgement of my texts or request to talk.  Really odd demeanor

Thoughts?  Right now I'm finishing homework with kiddos.

FF

[formflier]

So... in front of D4 and while I was actively engaged in cleaning up the living room, putting things away, etc etc... .my wife gets frustrated with the amount of junk the kids had piled on the bench so she picked it up an flung it against the stairs.  So... 5-6 feet.  She then went on about her business of going to the park.

I give it a few minutes and as she and D4 are getting ready to leave I ask her about her plans for the stuff in the floor.

ff wife "The kids need to learn to put things away better"  (a non answer)

me "I would appreciate it if you could pick this up before you leave... "

ff wife "There is stuff around everywhere that needs to be put away... "

me "please put the stuff away you put on the floor"
 
ff wife  Some of the response was unintelligible but basic gist was she wasn't going to do it...

me "That's a jerk move to toss stuff in the floor and block my path as I'm trying to clean up... "

ff wife  Some sort of blather as she walks away to the park

Then the text comes... .one big one.  Perhaps 20 minutes later.

am sorry you are unhappy with the me clearing off the bench so that the kids bags can be put there where they belong.   I do not appreciate you calling me names.  The person home when the kids get off the bus needs to be there helping them succeed in putting their things where they belong.  Our home needs to be cared for. There is stuff sitting everywhere it does not belong. Our children need to be trained to put their things where they belong immediately through someone being there to remind them and by modeling that behavior ourselves. Step 1 involves clearing off the bench and putting their bags on it where they belong. Step two involves the kids putting the things that were on the bench where they belong. I did step 1 so I could walk to the door without tripping over their bags. The kids can do step two when they get back from the park. I do not believe asking me to pick up their things for them is appropriate.

my first text

hey... let's talk when you get home!  

6 minutes later I text the following

Please enjoy the park.  I hope that before we put the kids to work sorting through that stuff, that we can have time to talk parenting strategy.

She gets home and is really weird... .barely acknowledging me.  Sits on porch kinda sulking.  Send D12 in to clean up the stuff.

I considered putting a stop to it... .but didn't.  

Wife went in bedroom and locked door.  Then locked herself in bathroom for a long shower after unlocking bedroom

She said she was having a wonderful day.  Went on a field trip to a baseball game.  Says had great time.

Seemed really pleasant until she snapped and tossed the stuff.


So, on the one hand it's good to get back to peace.  On the other hand, I'm very uncomfortable with an adult throwing a tantrum and tossing stuff about and having another person clean it up.  I certainly wasn't going to touch the stuff at all.

No acknowledgement of my texts or request to talk.  Really odd demeanor

Thoughts?  Right now I'm finishing homework with kiddos.

FF

[formflier]

So.she comes out as I was helping S9 with math and sits in between us and starts explaining his homework to him.

No talking to me.  I asked her something simple about another kid and she looked at me and gave no response.

I proceeded to send kids to bed (which was what I was asking about)

Sigh... .

FF

[formflier]

I'm heading out for a late evening walk and stretch when I come back.  Hopefully the bedroom will be calm by then.

So... .last night my wife asked if D6 could sleep with us.  I am rarely asked and rarely say yes.  For some reason, I said yes.  D6 flopped around and woke me up several times.  Not horrible, but it reminded me why I rarely say yes.

So... tonight... .S9 gets all settled into our bed and I ask him what's up.  "Mommy told me that I can sleep with you guys."

So... I go ask my wife and she says yes... .that earlier he has asked and she said yes.

me "In the future I would appreciate it if we can make decisions like that toger... "

She turns away from me and some unintelligible blather came out.  I simply walked away.

Well... S9 seems to have gone to sleep quickly and my wife goes in to go to bed.  I was doing some stuff in the living room and her loud talking (with a shut bedroom door) was bugging me.  Really loud.  So I pass through the bedroom on the way to bathroom and realize she is on the phone.  Talking really loud.

She seems to be telling stories from her work. 

With S9 seemingly sleeping beside her.

?

Walk stretch and get in bed is my plan.  Hopefully conversation is done by then.

FF

[Gaslit John]

I dunno FF.  That's a touchy subject.  If wife catches a wiff of criticism or dismay in your delivery of modeling good behavior you'll be painted black and be the root of all that's wrong in her life.  I'd let it go as just another bs thing us nons have to choke down living with our disordered s/o.

No matter how kind I am, how well thought out, or how well I articulate things in a neutral way uBPDw explodes with any hint of criticism.  She withdraws only to quickly assumes the victim role as I'm "hard to please", "demanding" and "never see anything good in her".  Then it moves onto "you never loved me.  Why did you marry me?"  But my all time personal favorite is when she tells me "I'm sick of walking on eggshells around you."  This comment has even made my D16 ask me "what is mom talking about? It's all of us that walk on eggshells around her erratic behavior".  All this making me regret ever bringing anything to her attention because the problem just escalated.  It would have been easier to say a few choice words under my breath and just move on.  

This my friend is why I am thinking real hard about my future and calculating if I really want to continue this r/s charade the rest of my life.  I have read many of your posts lurking on here before becoming a member.  I have great respect for you brother.  Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experiences.  Good luck dealing with yet another quandary of surviving a r/s with BPD person.  I hope it all goes well for you.

[Grey Kitty]

FF, she's crazy, not stupid or ignorant. Her philosophy on child rearing isn't all that far from yours, but when she's dysregulated, she fails to live up to it, and (generally) isn't capable of acknowledging it.

When she's in her "good" phase, she does a pretty reasonable job as a parent and as modeling good behavior, and you (usually) don't need a 'talk' with her to remind her.

When she's in her "bad" phase, her emotions and paranoia are running the show, and any efforts to have a 'talk' will be resisted, and if you do corner her into it, nothing good will happen.


When it comes to inviting children to sleep with you, either with your permission or as an "ambush", choose your battles.

Yeah, you could have another conversation with her about how important your sleep is to your mental and physical health. Perhaps the reminder will take care of it for a while.

But if your sleep is getting interfered with too much, (by tossing children, monologues at sleeping children, or whatever!) move on to boundary enforcement, find a peaceful and quiet place to sleep for yourself, and let her invite as many children to bed as she will.

You have to choose your battles; you'll soon know if this is enough of a trend that you have to deal with it, or if it will vanish spontaneously.

[GaGrl]

I'm picking up a pattern that, when FFwife knows she has overstepped a boundary and you want to talk about it, she uses the children to create distance between you.

That means she can direct the discussion so that it ends up being about the children, and not about her behavior.

[Notwendy]

My take on this one FF?

Let it go.

Why do I say this? I think your wife got the message. Any more of this would feel shaming to her. Have you ever had shame triggered? I have and it is really tough.

Your wife didn't get this way out of nowhere and from your description of her FOO, she was probably shamed as a child. I know I was. The feeling when shame triggered is not " you made a mistake, now correct it" it is "you are worthless, horrible, and so on.

You are a military guy and for the military, precision, correctness, is essential. Lives depend on it. It is absolutely crucial to correct someone's mistaken behavior. But in relationships, I think you have to pick your battles.

Your wife lost it when she threw the stuff. She knows it, you know it. Being right at the expense of shame triggering her isn't worth it.

So your wife lost it for a moment, maybe she was stressed, tired.

I lost it the other day with my H. I thought I had given him something. He denied it. I was stressed and I lost it. Yelled at him. I think I gave it to him, he completely denies it.  Well one of us is right and the other one isn't. I finally found it in the house. He insists that I put it there. By this time I was in such a tizzy I seriously didn't know if I did or didn't.

Ok, issue over, but not when someone has to be right. He followed me around saying "admit you were wrong, admit it... "  So let's say I was wrong. It was embarrassing enough to lose it. And then, getting my nose rubbed in it was shaming. Yet, when my H hears something critical, it triggers shame in him too. At this time, no discussion is effective with either of us. I have learned to recognize this trigger and not let it get to me. But I don't think pwBPD are good at doing this.

Precision is good but so is grace. Maybe this is the time for some of the latter.

Later when things are calmer you can discuss the child sleeping in your bed issue. I actually think this is the bigger concern. I'm a mom and think it is good to comfort a child, but allowing kids to sleep in your bed interrupts parent sleep. It would also be concerning if your wife is "using" the child to self soothe. Also, kids need to learn to self soothe on their own, and so need to sleep by themselves. I can understand this with a small child, or a child who is having some stress or not feeling well- once in a while. But in general, your kids are getting a bit old to need to sleep with parents.

[BeagleGirl]

FormFlier,

I think I'm in agreement with Gaslit Jim.  As I see it, you are trying to get her to "behave" with the justification that she should "model good behavior".  If she "behaves", she will model good behavior, but I don't think that focusing on explaining it to her in those terms will do much.

I have come to admire your clear thinking and solid action plan enough to think to myself "What Would FormFlier Do"  (WWFFD).  I'm going to take a stab at using this thought process on your situation, as odd as that seems.  

Everything in your conversation about the stuff being thrown on the floor seemed "formflierish" up until:
me "That's a jerk move to toss stuff in the floor and block my path as I'm trying to clean up... "

That break (understandable as it was) from requesting specific behavior to judging her behavior was, in my opinion, exactly what she wanted to get you back on "her level".  Ultimately, she succeeded in transferring her frustration with inappropriate behavior by the children (leaving things on the bench) to into conflict with you.  

How I think FF would have handled it :
Ignore the fact that she threw the stuff on the floor and focus on the root issue of the stuff being in the wrong place (whether on the bench or on the floor).  Instruct kids to put away the things that are on the floor before going to the park.  If wife reacts by saying "It can wait", request her support in enforcing the behavior (clean up the stuff) you want to see from the children now to enable you to continue with your cleaning.  Maybe offer the alternative of "Or you can put the items back on the bench before you go to the park so that they are out of my way".  If she starts to leave with the kids before either of those have been done, maybe offer to have her go ahead to the park and you will bring the kids once they have put away their items.

If the "jerk move" comment was not avoided or some other conflict triggered the first text she sent you:  "I'm glad we are in agreement on the importance of teaching our children to put their stuff away immediately.  I would like to discuss how we can work together to make that happen when you get back from the park."

If she refuses to engage in the "parenting strategy" discussion in person and locks herself away, text her your plan with the offer to discuss any points she doesn't understand or agree with, requesting that she let you know when she would like to have that discussion.  Make it clear that if you don't hear back from her you'll take that as full agreement and will proceed with your plan and appreciate her support.

Now, for inviting/allowing kids to share your bed - I think it's good to establish, as you did, that who sleeps in your bed should be a joint decision.  If she does not agree, are you willing/able to say "If this will not be a joint decision, then I will be making my own decision about whether to share a bed with you" and sleep elsewhere if you don't want to share the bed with wife and child?

The loud talking on the phone with your son in the bed:  If the talking isn't bothering your son (keeping him awake), I think you might just need to let this one go.  If your son is unable to sleep because of your wife's phone conversation, you might want to politely interrupt your wife's conversation long enough to ask "Would you like to take your phone conversation in the other room, or say goodnight to our son so he can go back to his room to sleep tonight?"

So that's my best FormFlier impression.  I'd love to know how I did.  
BeagleGirl

[Fian]

Let me toss an idea out here.  I don't know if it is a good strategy or not.

Instead of having a discussion where you form an agreement on future actions, I personally would just state my perception, something like "I did not appreciate you tossing items in front of the stairs.  It made it difficult to walk up and down the stairs, plus it appears that you were letting your emotions control you and I don't think it is a good example to set for our kids."  There is no further discussion unless she wants it.  There is no negotiation over future actions.  You are just giving her feedback on what you think of her behavior.  She may get upset when you say the above, but your part in the argument is done.

Personally I think discussion until there is agreement on a future plan of action is rather controlling, especially when it comes to strange outbursts like this situation.  In many cases, it is better to just let the issue go, but if the item is important enough to discuss, then I think the above approach is a way for you to communicate your view of things, without boxing her into a corner.

Now there are times where a future agreement is needed, and I do agree that in those cases a discussion like you proposed is necessary.  For example, a general discussion on parental strategy.  But I think there are other times where a formal discussion is not needed.

[lookingforanswer]

Here are my two cents.

If I am correct, you have 4 children from 4 yo to 12? That is a magnificent feat in itself and you should get a trophy.

I have heard the argument of kids picking up after themselves for almost 2 decades now from H. I have even asked him to do a task and then when I am out of earshot, have him turn around and ask the kids to do it. I am not of the mind to have kids always in a state of worrying about whether they are being clean or not. Makes them stressed and stressed kids are unhappy kids. So I put cleaning on the back burner and address the most important issue in my house: being kind to one another. If the kids are rudely going about their lives and throwing things without giving thought to how it will affect others (ahem, your wife), then that's one thing. If they are busy playing with their siblings and friends in a kind and generous manner and happen to leave a mess, then that is another.

The second thought is this: children as old as 9 sleeping with their parents really does the kids a disservice. I would be asking myself some hard questions as to why he/she needed reassurance at this age. I usually did not have a kid in my bed past 3 yo and that was usually when they were sick and I needed to keep an eye on them. What I did was sleep in their room until they fell asleep if they felt like they needed someone with them in the middle of the night. If this is the plan then this also serves to discourage your wife from requesting cosleeping if this means she is sleeping in a hard chair in their room

Anyway, just thought I would pass this along.

[formflier]

If I am correct, you have 4 children from 4 yo to 12? That is a magnificent feat in itself and you should get a trophy.

 

Ummm... .8 total.  21 down to 4.  4 boys and 4 girls.

The basic gist of it is "let it go".  I did not have time to log on today and read replies (one of those crazy days), but I did have time to think about it.  Let it go was my basic answer.

As part of a general talk about how "we" are going to teach responsibility, I plan to ask her to let kids to the putting away... .start to finish.  So if we find things out of place... .leave them there... .no "re-arranging"   and direct the appropriate child to sort things out.
.
She seemed less odd tonight, but a bit stressed still.

Anyway... .I'll try to give a more thoughtful reply later tonight.  Some very good points/ideas made in here. 

I've got a robotics club meeting to get to... .

FF