I Feel Like Two Different People

[DaddyBear77]

I think I'm setting myself up for some serious trouble... .

When I'm with uBPDw, I have a certain persona. This is what I say to her when I'm acting inside that persona: "Yes, I absolutely AM an abusive husband. I lie to you all the time. I have been purposely trying to f' you by forcing us into bankruptcy, and therefore making it so that you can't live a normal life. My parents are horrible people who have been trying to drive a wedge between us, and ever since our daughter was born, my mother has a single minded obsession with taking our daughter away from you, and I've been helping her make plans to do so!"

And then, after I've admitted to these high crimes and misdemeanors, I start to offer to punish myself / offer to "make things up" to her. This often involves prioritizing her personal financial needs above even the basic needs of myself and the family. It also involves me offering to get up in the middle of the night and agreeing to not go to sleep until issues get "settled" ("settled" really means that her emotional dysregulation subsides - I've figured out finally that the "settlement" has nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do).

But all this is an act - it's a character that I REALLY don't respect and am feeling more and more resentment towards.

When I'm NOT in front of uBPDw, and instead I'm speaking with my extended family or my therapist, I never say "I am abusive" or "I am a horrible husband" - BECAUSE I'M NOT! I feel like I've done so many things, self sacrificing things, loving things, supportive things. I know I'm not "all white," but I represent myself so negatively with pwBPD, I can't ever even bring myself to admit the things I AM doing wrong. I guess that's natural, but still, even talking about myself in a positive way feels dishonest when I know there must be something I'm screwing up, because who lives like this? Seriously? Who sits with massive debt and still agrees to $350 in cosmetics?

Anyway, this "dual personality" thing is freaking me out, and I know I've got to bring it all back together, but I'm feeling really split in half here and lost to find a way forward.

Any suggestions?

[Notwendy]

This sounds kind of masochistic- like you somehow enjoy being degraded and punished for some reason.

Have you considered exploring this with your T? Maybe something is driving you to self punishment with the spending.

Or it's some form of S&M at some level but are there less destructive ways to play this out?

[teapay]

Put a stake in the heart of persona #1, before he does it to you, and let persona #2 drive, so he can get you out of this mess with the support of your family and T.  It is really that simple, but no one on this earth can do it for you. You gotta be the guy that kills off #1.

[Notwendy]

It's illogical to admit to doing something terrible that you didn't do and then punish yourself with self destructive behavior.

There has to be some kind of emotional payoff for this to continue. If there wasn't - you would stop the behavior.

The question is- what is the payoff? That's for you to explore with your T

[BeagleGirl]

Daddybear,
I think it may be time for you to try on a Red Dress. 

From where I sit, neither of the two people you describe is the real you.  They are both equally the victims created by your response to your wife's illness.  The real Daddybear would neither be willing to accept blame for things he did not do, nor unwilling to accept responsibility for the things he does.  I think you know that on some level.

I can totally relate to the sense of detachment from the personas you wear around others.  I felt similar feelings as I found myself raising my voice at my BPDh (something incredibly out of character for me) and pretending for everyone else that everything was okay.  I started to realize that it wasn't just that I felt there was no one I could be myself with.  I had started to lose the ability to be myself even with myself. 

Are there times when you feel connected to the man you are and want to become?  Are there people who pull that out of you and reflect it back to you?  Is there an area of your life that has not been compromised?  Is there a symbol of who you are that you can hold onto (figuratively or literally) when you start to lose track of your true self?

BG

[Notwendy]

It's a hard thing to consider but we tend to match our romantic partners emotionally in some way - even if we don't have their behaviors. We can also have similar traits- co dependency, fear of abandonment, not knowing our true selves and being whatever we think the person we are with wants us to be- but that is inauthentic.

We may wear a "mask" with people and a different mask with different people. We all do this to some extent. We are polite and cordial at work and more casual with family and close friends. But fear and people pleasing can have us be inauthentic almost all the time.

When did you put the mask on? For many of us it could be as children growing up in families where we didn't feel loved for who we truly were as children.

Think of your childhood- even if your parents were not like your wife. This isn't to blame them. They did the best they could and may have had issues in their FOO. It's for our own self understanding and to help change for the better.

What was your family "role"? How did you respond to that ? I was the black child. To compensate I overachieved and was a people pleaser. This may have gotten occasional recognition in my FOO but I still didn't feel they loved me for me, just what I could do for them.  A sibling was the golden child and could do no wrong but that's a lot of pressure on a child. His response was some self sabotaging behavior as he resented having to please them all the time. Both roles involve being inauthentic out of fear for not being loved for who you are.

[Grey Kitty]

DB, will you confirm what I'm readying here?

The "persona" or "role" when you are with your wife. The one which admits to being a bad person, and accepts punishment for it.

Do you actually believe these things at the time you do/say them, and "wake up" later?

Or do you find yourself doing/saying them, knowing it doesn't feel true/doesn't feel right, and you just can't figure out why, and can't seem to stop yourself?

[ohmygod]

I have went through something similar and I can say that I don't think has to do much with your wife or her BPD. I think this is a reflection of your core belief about yourself - that you are bad or not good enough. As a result you deserve to be 'punished'. So as someone else said you get an emotional payoff of some sort.

If this was not your core belief to some extent there is no way you would do it or put up with her insane behaviour because at the end of the day it is a matter of choice. You have a choice to say 'enough' or you can countinue to punish yourself. I hope you will choose what is best for you... .

[DaddyBear77]

Do you actually believe these things at the time you do/say them, and "wake up" later?

Or do you find yourself doing/saying them, knowing it doesn't feel true/doesn't feel right, and you just can't figure out why, and can't seem to stop yourself?

It's more the second one - it goes like this:
1. Everything is fine. Weather is clear.
2. pwBPD says "How could you be so cruel to me all the time? You did xxx and when you did xxx you meant to hurt me."
3. I JADE, deny it, say it isn't so, invalidate her
4. Things escalate, and what at first seemed completely illogical (e.g., that I would hurt her on purpose) starts to seem like there's maybe something to it (e.g., maybe that really WAS why I did that - could that be true?)
5. I say "maybe I was wrong. Maybe I DID do xxx to be cruel"
6. More arguing, she doesn't believe me now. She doesn't think I really believe that I did that. So I start to JADE but in the OPPOSITE direction. "I really DO know that I was cruel on purpose. It must come from my childhood. I was the one who decided to be cruel." Etc, etc
7. She says "well what are you going to do to make up for this horrible thing you've done?"
8. I've come this far, so I take it further and come up with some sort of "make up" thing. We negotiate. She accepts
9. Weather is clear again.

The alternate "persona" emerges beteeen steps 4 and 5 above. By the end of step 8, I feel completely dirty and wrong for having "gone there" but we're so close to step 9 that I just forge ahead.

Does that help clarify?

[DearHusband]

I think it is actually quite understandable. If you're like me, you hate the drama and conflict and want it to end as soon as possible. You know that there is no "winning" the argument with a pwBPD. So, you run the gauntlet and say whatever you think she wants to hear, hoping that she will be satisfied and the argument will end sooner. And, you fear the punishment that will be exacted if you fight back.

The only problem is that, although it may end sooner with less punishment, the arguments happen more frequently.

You're not a bad person, but by avoiding the issue, you are allowing it to perpetuate. Call her on it. Simply, "I understand that you are upset, but that's a personal attack. That's another. That's another. If you want to discuss it without the personal attacks, I'll be waiting." Then it's up to you. You can stay and repeat the line or you can leave.

[DaddyBear77]

I think it is actually quite understandable.

DearHusband - yes - at one level, sure, I agree - it's understandable that I would want to find what seems to be a less painful path. That's clearly how this all started.

What concerns me is the level to which I've taken it. To that end, I think Notwendy and ohmygod are spot on... .

I think this is a reflection of your core belief about yourself - that you are bad or not good enough.

There has to be some kind of emotional payoff for this to continue. If there wasn't - you would stop the behavior.

And then, there's this... .

From where I sit, neither of the two people you describe is the real you.  They are both equally the victims created by your response to your wife's illness.  The real Daddybear would neither be willing to accept blame for things he did not do, nor unwilling to accept responsibility for the things he does.  I think you know that on some level.

THIS is a very astute observation - thank you BeagleGirl. I'm not a monster. I don't want to hurt my pwBPD, not on purpose, not accidentally, not at all.

But, that's exactly what I've chosen to do - I've knowingly hurt my family, including my extended family. I hurt these people because I'm blindly, willfully, dangerously following her along this BPD path, validating delusional thought patterns, ignoring my own discomforts as I desperately try and soothe hers.

My pwBPD is the one with BPD / NPD. I am not. She neglects finances, relationships, and her own body because she has an untreated disorder. I do it because ______? Is it codependency? Is it caretaking? Is it rooted in family of origin dynamics? All of the above, I think, but - does it really matter?

I think I'm getting it. I could certainly use some input on this, though,

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB, It seems like you are losing ground quickly in the course of these conversations with your uBPDw.  Pretty soon you will be agreeing that all men are dogs and you deserve to be kicked.  In my view, it's time for you to discontinue the false persona and start using boundaries to protect yourself.  You don't need to have conversations like this.  Suggest you stop doing it.  Suggest you decline to participate in these exercises in self-flagellation.  Suggest you learn to love and care about yourself enough to the point where you can't allow yourself to have conversations like this.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

The alternate "persona" emerges beteeen steps 4 and 5 above. By the end of step 8, I feel completely dirty and wrong for having "gone there" but we're so close to step 9 that I just forge ahead.

OK. I just wanted to confirm that the quiet voice inside you doesn't believe that stuff, even if you do get sucked into it. Badly. Even badly enough that you stop listening to yourself and start to wonder if you really should believe it... .

Anyhow, I believe you when you say things really go badly for you around steps 4~5. Which is why I'd like to draw your attention a bit earlier:

2. pwBPD says "How could you be so cruel to me all the time? You did xxx and when you did xxx you meant to hurt me."
3. I JADE, deny it, say it isn't so, invalidate her

My suggestion is to work on your awareness of step 2, and your feelings/habits that drive you to take step 3.

I'm pretty sure you've been here long enough to read the lessons and realize that JADEing and invalidating her never has a good result. Since you know where that's going to take you (See steps 4~8 if you've forgotten  ) Don't do that. Time to change the game, instead, since if you play that game, you always lose!

You are accused of being cruel (which is a judgement about your intentions, and that wasn't your intent, and the quiet voice inside you knows this!), and when you are accused of doing xxx WITH THE INTENTION OF HURTING HER, again, your quiet truth being that you were not trying to hurt her when you did xxx. Yes, there is a kernel of truth most of the time--you did do xxx. But your reason wasn't to harm her, so that kernel of truth is the bait to get you biting on the deceptive/abusive hook she's setting for you.

Don't bite on it. Instead, recognize that this attack is harming you. Protect yourself from the attack. (The false accusation).

":)efending" yourself against the attack doesn't protect you. (re-read your steps 4~8 again!)

What will protect you is removing yourself from this conversation where she is attacking you.

She will resist this. She will double down on the attacks and abuse. She will accuse you of running away, avoiding conflict, trying to harm her, etc., etc., etc.

Doesn't matter. You've got two choices at that point:

Stay, accept verbal abuse, and get beaten down to the point you agree to something you will feel horrible about later. (Yes, it really is toxic for you to listen to it. The more you listen, the more you will believe it. You might even fall so low you do believe everything she says if you do it long enough!)

Leave. Complete with self-doubt, anxiety. And let her have her own feelings, even if they are blaming you for everything. Let her believe you are the worst husband in the world because you left in the middle of this fight. Let her tell you that. Let her tell you that it is the end of your marriage if you don't stick around and "make it better" (aka accept the verbal abuse).

It might help if you re-define the problem: Your problem is NOT that she thinks you are a horrible husband. (Good thing that isn't your problem, too! You have zero chance of changing what another person thinks, ever!) Your problem is that you listen to her telling you you're a horrible husband.

[Lalathegreat]

Daddybear I relate. I know it's not ok. I know it's not true what I'm admitting to. But it comes from a place of desperately needing the conversation or argument to stop. I swear - I compare it to people who claim to have made false confessions in police custody. I felt "badgered" into making some  concessions in an effort to appease pwBPD and get him to stop raging and arguing.

It's getting a little better the more I commit to enforcing my boundaries, but there have been times when I was allowing him to completely steamroll me. And unfortunately I think it made matters a million times worse as he absolutely digs in knowing that he can get me to "go there" if he tries hard enough.

FF would remind you to set boundaries and leave if you need to. I'm in the embryo stage of being able to do that so I will say it with that gaping caveat.

Hang in there.

[BeagleGirl]

Daddybear,
If you need to look at this from a different angle, here's how what you are doing plays out in my relationship (I'm putting myself in the role of your BPDw and my BPDh in your role.  The non/BPD assignments are reversed, but the gender and general conversational roles are the same.)
1. Everything is fine in my BPDh's mind. Weather appears clear.
2. nonWife says "You just did something that hurt me. You did xxx and when you did xxx you disregarded my feelings."
3. BPDh JADEs, blame shifts, deflects.
4. Things escalate, and what at first BPDh refuses to accept as a hurtful action that he should take accountability for, he now feels he will never be able to adequately JADE away.
5. BPDh says "maybe I was wrong. Maybe I DID do xxx to be cruel"
6. More arguing, I don't believe BPDh. I don't think BPDh really believes that what he did was unjustified.  I push until he can parrot back all the reasons I have given him for why what he did was hurtful and unjustified.
7. I say "What are you going to do to make up for the pain you've caused and how are you going to change so that it doesn't happen again?"
8. BPDh has come this far, so he takes it further and come up with some sort of "make up" thing. We negotiate. I accept. 
9. BPDh feels weather is clear again, but I am watching to see if he is really committed to the repair and change he has promised.
10.  BPDh's commitments are forgotten (by him) and I'm too tired of the conflict to point it out... .until
11.  BPDh commits same or similar hurtful action that demonstrates a disregard for my feelings.
Repeat about 10,000,000 times over 22 years until alternate ending 1 or 2 occurs.
12 a.  I realize that I'm an idiot for expecting anything different from him because he didn't really believe that what he did was wrong and just said what I wanted to hear to stop the fight.  I stop trying to make him understand what he did and stop trusting him to do "the right thing".
12 b.  BPDh finally comes to an understanding of what he has done and its impact on me and starts behaving differently because he believes differently.  He may fall back into old behaviors, but a quick expression from me of the hurt he has caused reminds him and he takes responsibility for getting "back on track" without going through steps 3-11.

I understand and believe that your wife's hurts may be "all in her head" and/or the blame may be misplaced when being put on you.  In that, the situations are different.  What I don't think is different is the destruction of trust that occurs in steps 5-11.  I would much rather BPDh would stick to his guns and never take responsibility for his actions or the hurt they caused than to foster a false sense of hope.  It's the pretending that gets me to drop my walls and make myself vulnerable to him again.

So if any of your justification for letting "guy #1" show up is that it will make your wife happy, I would say you are working off an erroneous assumption.

BG

[ohmygod]

Man if you only were mindful of the fact that you deserve to be loved and cared for... .But we so easily forget that when pple with BPD put pressure on us... .start finding ways to give yourself love in small ways. your posts almost made me cry as I remembered how terrible it was to be in that same spot with my exBPDw... .also it gives me strenght never to go back to her and that hell. take care friend Im sending you love tonight and will pray for you... .

[Notwendy]

I understand that it can be easier to give in after relentless badgering just to end it in the moment, but there is one more step-  the unafffordable purchase.

This puts the whole family - including your wife- in jeapoardy. The accusations may come from her perception in victim mode but money is concrete. The numbers are the numbers. You can't buy something that costs $20 if you only have $10.

Emotions can drive wishes, but when you buy things for her that you can't afford there is some shared disconnect from reality. In addition she is generously rewarded for her false accusations with an expensive prize and even validation "I must be right if he bought me this". When behavior is rewarded it tends to continue.

[Grey Kitty]

I understand that it can be easier to give in after relentless badgering just to end it in the moment, but there is one more step-  the unafffordable purchase.

Those look like your ownly two choices: Give in to the badgering, or hold strong in the face of it. Take the third choice: Remove yourself from it.

[GaGrl]

I'm curious, DaddyBear... .does your wife feel shame after the large purchases?  That is, does she have any sense that the purchase was outside what was financially possible, and that making the purchase placed the family finances in greater jeopardy.

I'm sure you know that the things you say you have done/purchased for your wife are far, far out of the norm of most people to afford.  It's wonderful if you have an income that allows you to do this, but if your income (although good) simply can't bear frequent international vacations, jewelry and cosmetics purchases without increased debt, something has to give at some point. 

(By the way, $300+ in cosmetics would last me a year!)

[DaddyBear77]

BeagleGirl - that was a really great reply and I've been thinking about it all night and all morning. The way you flipped it and described the issues around trust really resonated with me. I have seriously degraded my pwBPD's ability to trust me and my responses. This has done a lot of harm to our relationship and needs to stop. I wish I knew how I could back out of this. I am starting to think the answer is, I can't. But I need to try. I don't know what that looks like.

Maybe "try" looks like what GK is suggesting - just leave. Don't engage. I think that really is the best option. I've tried starting and facing down the anger and rage but that doesn't work. The badgering always gets to me. So leaving the situation seems like maybe the only viable path.

Notwendy - in terms of the family, reckless spending is certainly the biggest and most dangerous issue. Basic needs will no longer be met.

Gagirl - if she's ashamed, she doesn't show it. But I don't think she is. I think she very firmly believes that what she asks for is perfectly reasonable. She believes she HAS compromised by not asking for "so much" - she has literally said "it's not like I'm asking you for a BMW or a fur coat or something! It's basic needs that eveey woman has! People around here spend WAY more than $2800 a year on hair treatments and $2000 a year on cosmetics! I can't believe you don't see that?" - but yes; a part of me has always known this is way outside the norm, but I have repeatedly tried to negotiate this with her, foolishly. It never changes.


I'm headed to an attorney now - retaining them for a bankruptcy filing. It's only a first step. I'll probably write more about this in a new thread but wanted to reply to the questions in this one first.