Can BPD lead to Munchausen by proxy

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My ex-wife is a high conflict personality, and shows many signs of BPD.  Our daughter that was born with a significant medical complication (congenital heart defect) from which she had about 8 months of hospitalization and three open heart surgeries before the age of 3.  She's a miracle by all accounts, but has turned into this amazing (almost) 6 year old that people who don't know her history aren't aware of what she's been through.  She's thriving in life right now, and starting Kindergarten this month.

Her mother and I have been involved with all of her medical care together, even through the divorce... .more recently it's been a bit more of a struggle to keep up to date with things because my ex-wife will schedule stuff and purposefully not tell me, or tell me the day prior to appointments - she's also actively worked to exclude me from contact information on forums by updating my information to be her name and address.  I've been to court, and she was slapped on the wrist pretty sternly about this back in April.  Which really just caused her to be a bit more covert in how she does it.  Things have been slightly improved.

Anyway, I could ramble on about the history, but here are my main two questions... .and I can give more details if needed to help answer them more thoroughly.

      1) My ex-wife and I have completely different views of how well our daughter is doing.  Well, the facts show that she has some serious medical complications, but doctors have said "don't let that hold her back from living life and being a happy 5 year old... .her body will self regulate and if there is a serious issue her body will tell us and we'll address it then."  So my ex-wife takes this overly protective roll with our daughter. Which I think is ok... .to a degree. However, she will inflate issues our daughter has and even instill fear into other people on our daughters behalf for stuff that isn't even true.  I've fought this at our daughters preschool classes, and now her kindergarten... .where ex-wife will say things like "she only had a 5% chance of making it to this age (which is a lie, the doctors told us she had a 78% chance of making it through all the operations)." and then she will follow up by saying "she could die any day... .even a common cold is deadly for her." which is also false. Doctors have said her immune system is growing, and although when she was an infant it was a very serious situation if she got a common cold, these days they encourage her to play among friends and not avoid it, because it's helping to build her immune system. Now it might seem like mom is just uninformed... .but that's not the case. She has heard all the doctors words. She wants the attention of a sick child... .she thrives on it. And it's starting to hold my daughter back from being independent and growing. Some of this is going to take care of itself... .but the days my daughter is with me she's getting that controlled freedom to grow and see the world.

More serious is... .
      2) This may all sound like coincidence (those dealing with BPDs can understand how crazy we sound connecting dots of this kind of behavior)... .  My daughters and I (she has an holder sister that is 8) had a planned trip to Yellowstone this summer. We've had this trip planned for 9 months.  My daughters told their mother about it.  One week before the trip happened, my ex-wife wrote me this long long e-mail about how our daughter needed to be picked up from camp early because "she was sick"... .the last paragraph was her whole point to writing this e-mail said "I hope she's ok to go to Yellowstone, I bet she'll get even more sick there." I have been keeping my responses to her very brief. I said simply "thanks for keeping me informed about our daughter"... .and I called the camp. They told me that my daughter was complaining about the heat (it was pool day outside) and it mad perfect sense to me. It was a hot humid day. That taxes her cardio system. My ex didn't mention this at all, just focused on the "are you sure she'll be ok on your trip" part. Foreshadowing.

      A few days later my ex took our daughters to the beach with her, the evening she got home... .Sunday night... .she went to the ER at Children's National in DC (an hour drive for her) and wrote me a frantic e-mail about how our daughter has been acting lethargic and complaining of chest pains.  The hospital didn't check her in, they sent her home three ours later at 1am. I checked later and the medical records indicated that mom complained of her blinking, so they told her to get some eye drops. All tests were negative. No strep, no anything. My ex-wife wrote to our cardiologist (who was on vacation) and asked her to comment on our daughters "chest pains" and the cardiologist wrote back a few things, and said "might be worth checking with someone in neurology about the blinking"... .my ex-wife then called that office and set an appointment to happen the middle of our Yellowstone trip (the next week) and wrote to me saying it was the only date available and claiming that our daughter has to be seen. I wrote back again the standard "thanks for keeping me informed" (choosing not to engage)... .for the next three days until my daughter came to my house she wrote me every morning saying "I see you have a trip next week to Yellowstone... .I'm happy to stay with DD at home while you go with other daughter." and over and over and kept saying "please answer me... .can I help take our daughter to appointment?"

      I was just waiting to see my daughter myself, everything I'd heard to this point and seen said nothing was wrong. I called the neurology office and talked to receptionist and found out my ex-wife had socially engineered the "need" for this appointment by saying the cardiologist wanted it... .when really cardiologist said "might be worth checking"... .she told the guy over the phone she was worried about a stroke.  She made the office open up a 6th slot that day so my daughter could be seen... .the receptionist said the doctor is booked until Spring but there is no reason this can't happen the following week or the week after that.  I wanted to write her and tell her we were rescheduling this appointment, but I knew she'd take it to another level if I did that, so I just waited... .not responding to her requests to verify if I'd cancel my Yellowstoen trip or let our daughter stay home from it.

     Finally Thursday rolls around and my daughters are supposed to be on their way to my house... .29 minutes before drop off I get an e-mail that was very long, and crafted. It explained that she was in route to the ER in the city again with our daughter. She said pediatrician asked her to go because of a fever.  I instantly go to pick up our other daughter and drive straight into the city. I get to the hospital an hour after they did... .my ex-wife stays till 11pm and leaves... .never comes back. But I start asking around why my daughter is here... .and I get funny looks from nurses. They explain "she had a fever" and I ask "what was it" and they go "103.1" and I said "did you read that here?" and they said "no, mom said it was 103.1"... .I gave them a look... .and suddenly I'm the bad guy "Sir, we tend to take parents word for it."

      So I wait, and talk to doctors. I find out my daughter has been given a battery of tests... .my daughter is smiling and happy. She doesn't look sick at all. I ask why we are spending the night. Doctors say they need to wait for blood cultures to check for infections. I found out later Mom described chest pains and all the other things she'd been putting in e-mails all week. The next day we found out every single thing was negative. my ex-wife has request our daughter be analyzed for 48 hours. She insisted something was wrong. They never found anything. The doctors later confirmed to me that our daughter never had a fever, when she was checked in she was showing no symptoms. She is a heart patient, so there is a lot of "on the safe side" with her... .but it's clear my ex-wife used that to disrupt (attempt to) our trip to Yellowstone.

      The next morning during doctor rounders (ex-wife had left she wasn't even there) the doctors looked at my daughter and asked me "so why are we here?" and I said "good question." they all laughed... .after some conversations I decided to say it "if I may... .and I know this may sound odd... .but I think the reason we are here is because my daughters and I are supposed to be on a plane to Yellowstone tomorrow... .their mother checked her in yesterday.  Her medical comes first, of course, but I can't see any reason why we are here... .if it's ok I'd love to still go on this trip."

      Later I was able to confirm from the hospital that the eye blinking was normal... .she's not showing a single sign of stroke. I also found out the doctors talked to my daughter in the side room while I was sleeping and asked her questions like "how were you feeling this week" "did your chest hurt?" to which she denied ever having any chest pains. I sincerely hope the hospital is compiling a record of this... .I spoke with someone from admin about it. It's a very hard think to prove... .:\

      Good news is we still went on our trip and had a blast. My daughter had the biggest smile the whole time and we have tons of photos to show for it.  I was able to remove myself from the drama but staying calm... .not engaging in my ex-wife behavior. But on the inside it is maddening. I've lost sleep trying to think how I can protect my daughter from this kind of thing. I thought this was a good place to vent... .I'm not sure if anyone here has been through similar.

[Thomas0311]

My ex-wife is a high conflict personality, and shows many signs of BPD.  Our daughter that was born with a significant medical complication (congenital heart defect) from which she had about 8 months of hospitalization and three open heart surgeries before the age of 3.  She's a miracle by all accounts, but has turned into this amazing (almost) 6 year old that people who don't know her history aren't aware of what she's been through.  She's thriving in life right now, and starting Kindergarten this month.

Her mother and I have been involved with all of her medical care together, even through the divorce... .more recently it's been a bit more of a struggle to keep up to date with things because my ex-wife will schedule stuff and purposefully not tell me, or tell me the day prior to appointments - she's also actively worked to exclude me from contact information on forums by updating my information to be her name and address.  I've been to court, and she was slapped on the wrist pretty sternly about this back in April.  Which really just caused her to be a bit more covert in how she does it.  Things have been slightly improved.

Anyway, I could ramble on about the history, but here are my main two questions... .and I can give more details if needed to help answer them more thoroughly.

      1) My ex-wife and I have completely different views of how well our daughter is doing.  Well, the facts show that she has some serious medical complications, but doctors have said "don't let that hold her back from living life and being a happy 5 year old... .her body will self regulate and if there is a serious issue her body will tell us and we'll address it then."  So my ex-wife takes this overly protective roll with our daughter. Which I think is ok... .to a degree. However, she will inflate issues our daughter has and even instill fear into other people on our daughters behalf for stuff that isn't even true.  I've fought this at our daughters preschool classes, and now her kindergarten... .where ex-wife will say things like "she only had a 5% chance of making it to this age (which is a lie, the doctors told us she had a 78% chance of making it through all the operations)." and then she will follow up by saying "she could die any day... .even a common cold is deadly for her." which is also false. Doctors have said her immune system is growing, and although when she was an infant it was a very serious situation if she got a common cold, these days they encourage her to play among friends and not avoid it, because it's helping to build her immune system. Now it might seem like mom is just uninformed... .but that's not the case. She has heard all the doctors words. She wants the attention of a sick child... .she thrives on it. And it's starting to hold my daughter back from being independent and growing. Some of this is going to take care of itself... .but the days my daughter is with me she's getting that controlled freedom to grow and see the world.

More serious is... .
      2) This may all sound like coincidence (those dealing with BPDs can understand how crazy we sound connecting dots of this kind of behavior)... .  My daughters and I (she has an holder sister that is 8) had a planned trip to Yellowstone this summer. We've had this trip planned for 9 months.  My daughters told their mother about it.  One week before the trip happened, my ex-wife wrote me this long long e-mail about how our daughter needed to be picked up from camp early because "she was sick"... .the last paragraph was her whole point to writing this e-mail said "I hope she's ok to go to Yellowstone, I bet she'll get even more sick there." I have been keeping my responses to her very brief. I said simply "thanks for keeping me informed about our daughter"... .and I called the camp. They told me that my daughter was complaining about the heat (it was pool day outside) and it mad perfect sense to me. It was a hot humid day. That taxes her cardio system. My ex didn't mention this at all, just focused on the "are you sure she'll be ok on your trip" part. Foreshadowing.

      A few days later my ex took our daughters to the beach with her, the evening she got home... .Sunday night... .she went to the ER at Children's National in DC (an hour drive for her) and wrote me a frantic e-mail about how our daughter has been acting lethargic and complaining of chest pains.  The hospital didn't check her in, they sent her home three ours later at 1am. I checked later and the medical records indicated that mom complained of her blinking, so they told her to get some eye drops. All tests were negative. No strep, no anything. My ex-wife wrote to our cardiologist (who was on vacation) and asked her to comment on our daughters "chest pains" and the cardiologist wrote back a few things, and said "might be worth checking with someone in neurology about the blinking"... .my ex-wife then called that office and set an appointment to happen the middle of our Yellowstone trip (the next week) and wrote to me saying it was the only date available and claiming that our daughter has to be seen. I wrote back again the standard "thanks for keeping me informed" (choosing not to engage)... .for the next three days until my daughter came to my house she wrote me every morning saying "I see you have a trip next week to Yellowstone... .I'm happy to stay with DD at home while you go with other daughter." and over and over and kept saying "please answer me... .can I help take our daughter to appointment?"

      I was just waiting to see my daughter myself, everything I'd heard to this point and seen said nothing was wrong. I called the neurology office and talked to receptionist and found out my ex-wife had socially engineered the "need" for this appointment by saying the cardiologist wanted it... .when really cardiologist said "might be worth checking"... .she told the guy over the phone she was worried about a stroke.  She made the office open up a 6th slot that day so my daughter could be seen... .the receptionist said the doctor is booked until Spring but there is no reason this can't happen the following week or the week after that.  I wanted to write her and tell her we were rescheduling this appointment, but I knew she'd take it to another level if I did that, so I just waited... .not responding to her requests to verify if I'd cancel my Yellowstoen trip or let our daughter stay home from it.

     Finally Thursday rolls around and my daughters are supposed to be on their way to my house... .29 minutes before drop off I get an e-mail that was very long, and crafted. It explained that she was in route to the ER in the city again with our daughter. She said pediatrician asked her to go because of a fever.  I instantly go to pick up our other daughter and drive straight into the city. I get to the hospital an hour after they did... .my ex-wife stays till 11pm and leaves... .never comes back. But I start asking around why my daughter is here... .and I get funny looks from nurses. They explain "she had a fever" and I ask "what was it" and they go "103.1" and I said "did you read that here?" and they said "no, mom said it was 103.1"... .I gave them a look... .and suddenly I'm the bad guy "Sir, we tend to take parents word for it."

      So I wait, and talk to doctors. I find out my daughter has been given a battery of tests... .my daughter is smiling and happy. She doesn't look sick at all. I ask why we are spending the night. Doctors say they need to wait for blood cultures to check for infections. I found out later Mom described chest pains and all the other things she'd been putting in e-mails all week. The next day we found out every single thing was negative. my ex-wife has request our daughter be analyzed for 48 hours. She insisted something was wrong. They never found anything. The doctors later confirmed to me that our daughter never had a fever, when she was checked in she was showing no symptoms. She is a heart patient, so there is a lot of "on the safe side" with her... .but it's clear my ex-wife used that to disrupt (attempt to) our trip to Yellowstone.

      The next morning during doctor rounders (ex-wife had left she wasn't even there) the doctors looked at my daughter and asked me "so why are we here?" and I said "good question." they all laughed... .after some conversations I decided to say it "if I may... .and I know this may sound odd... .but I think the reason we are here is because my daughters and I are supposed to be on a plane to Yellowstone tomorrow... .their mother checked her in yesterday.  Her medical comes first, of course, but I can't see any reason why we are here... .if it's ok I'd love to still go on this trip."

      Later I was able to confirm from the hospital that the eye blinking was normal... .she's not showing a single sign of stroke. I also found out the doctors talked to my daughter in the side room while I was sleeping and asked her questions like "how were you feeling this week" "did your chest hurt?" to which she denied ever having any chest pains. I sincerely hope the hospital is compiling a record of this... .I spoke with someone from admin about it. It's a very hard think to prove... .:\

      Good news is we still went on our trip and had a blast. My daughter had the biggest smile the whole time and we have tons of photos to show for it.  I was able to remove myself from the drama but staying calm... .not engaging in my ex-wife behavior. But on the inside it is maddening. I've lost sleep trying to think how I can protect my daughter from this kind of thing. I thought this was a good place to vent... .I'm not sure if anyone here has been through similar.

[Dragonhorse]

I wonder about this type of thing, too.

My boyfriend's ex seems to have many BPD traits. Their 17yo daughter has pretty severe anxiety and it has interfered with her schooling. But she has a plan for finishing high school and has great friends and functions fine when she doesn't have the pressures of "normal" school deadlines and things.

Her the mother seems to exaggerate how badly their daughter is doing whenever SHE (the mother) is worked up. She'll tell him that their daughter is in bed and won't get up, won't eat, won't talk, or is devastated by some innocuous Tweet I made. (Neither of them has ever met me.) But when he actually gets to spend time with his daughter, she's more or less okay, somewhat anxious about normal teenage stuff. And also worrying about her mom (which is a pretty unhealthy dynamic).

I'm so glad you were able to go on your trip. What a huge waste of time and emotional energy and medical resources... .!

[david]

My ex did similar things too. I found it difficult to navigate because she was a nurse and talked the language much better than me. The only thing I did was let the doctor know I was there and I stayed involved. Eventually , I believe , the doctor figured ex out and started communicating directly to me.
Ex also convinced the school that our youngest had a learning disability. They tested him and the results were inconclusive but they wrote an IEP for him at moms' insistence. That was in kindergarten. The tests were inconclusive since he was too young to be tested and the results should have been suspect because of that. The school started to question the IEP in second grade and contacted me since I nwas more involved in his school. I had him retested since the results should be valid at that age. He was placed in the accelerated class and is doing well. He is starting 8th grade this year. Ex complained, in the beginning, but did not challenge the school.

[Panda39]

My SO's uBPDxw is also really weird when it comes to health issues with their daughters.  My SO has full-time custody now but back when they were separated and his ex had majority custody she was both over indulgent and neglectful when it came to health issues.  Younger daughter had a stomachache on Monday so naturally she needed to miss a week of school   Same daughter had a toothache, mom scheduled the dentist appointment, cancelled it, rescheduled it, cancelled it, changed dentists, set up another appointment cancelled it... .3 months of this... .daughter in pain for 3 months!... .My SO finally just did it (against the ex's objections that she would do it... .when at the end of time?). 

The ex also took both daughters to the Dermatologist for acne and told my SO that the Dermatologist told her that both girls had dark rings around their necks that indicated they could be diabetic? Then proceeded to buy them bags and bags of Easter Candy a week later   

The girls' mom was/is always looking for something wrong, can never just appreciate the fact that she has healthy children.

I think you are definitely doing the right thing by collecting the facts from the source... .the doctors vs believing your ex hook line and sinker.  You might want to collect records of these frivolous doctor's visits, note the comments made to you by medical staff, and journal what your ex is telling you, just in case you want to go back to court for Medical decision making.  Your ex's level of anxiety may be causing anxiety in your daughter.

My SO was able to document his daughter's absenteeism from school, and the multiple scheduled, cancelled, rescheduled appointments (wife's inability to get the kids treatment) and when the divorce was final my SO received Education, Medical, and Dental decision making.

I think she used these "illnesses" in a variety of different ways; attention seeking/playing the victim/kids as an extension of herself (I'm the mother of these poor sick children give me attention through them), playing "supermom" (I'm the best mom ever see how concerned I am for the wellbeing of my children), fear of abandonment (I'm lonely and you have a stomach ache Great! you can stay home all week and keep me company), and validation of her own imaginary illnesses (If my kids have it then I must have it too).

That said, she is also their mother and I'm sure does really care and is really concerned, but it's never that simple there is always additional dysfunction on top of it, complicating things and making everyone miserable.

Panda39

[Sunfl0wer]

May be worth posting on legal board too.

So apparently, if mom is making ficticious illnesses up to cope with her own mental health issues, projecting onto the child, this may be a case of child abuse and at some point someone, or you yourself, may want to report her to DCF/CPS, whatever they call it for your area.

They are compelled to do a complete investigation including compelling mom to provide them the info of all docs involved in kids care and interviewing the kids medical doctors, then interviewing mom with a CPS medical team of qualified persons who can determine if her responses to the kids health concerns are harmful to the child or not.

Problem is tho, I do not know if evidence for actual harm must be accumulated so that the case does not simply get closed for having insufficient evidence.  (Idk if they actually need evidence of her lying or subjecting child to unecessary invasive procedures based on obvious lies... .or maybe proof of her tampering with things, or kid actually being more sick in her care, idk at all, what they deem actionable.)

I mean, it cannot be illegal to simply take a kid to ER for "possible" illness.  More evidence may be needed for this route to be worth it, idk... .just throwing the thought out there.

Many folks think the custody and courts want to hear this stuff... .but I think it is best dealt with via CPS/DCF as it is a case of abuse.

Idk really, just throwing out thoughts to consider.

[david]

I filed to modify custody years back. I was EOW and one dinner night a week. My petition stated that mom was not helping the boys with their school work so I needed more time to help them.  Ex dragged things out through the legal system and it took close to three years before we had an actual court date set. During that time I copied every homework our youngest son did. I signed and dated the ones he did with me and ex, upon seeing that, started signing and dating the bones he did at her place. I had a pile around eight inches high. I summarized it on a single sheet of paper. You need three of everything for court in order to introduce it as evidence. The pile was placed on the judges bench. He didn't look happy until he saw the top sheet summarizing. He asked ex if the top sheet was correct. She agreed. If she didn't we would have to go through each paper and that would have made the judge very angry since the top sheet was true. From that point on things became easier in court. I got exactly what I was seeking.
The thing that perplexed me back then was that ex knew from the petition what and why I was seeking more time and did nothing to change. Our youngest did over 95 or 97 % of all his homework when with me. Around half of what he did at his moms' was either incomplete or flat out incorrect. After that I realized she was unable to adapt or cope to change and had a limited number of ways to respond to something. That was back in 2010.
I only communicate through email. What I have noticed is her emails go on about things I have no knowledge of as if I was there. She sends emails to both boys and I and it is full of inaccuracies ( flat out lies). It appears to me she is trying to triangulate everyone but I don't bite and it does not work through emails like it did in person. 

[livednlearned]

Good news is we still went on our trip and had a blast. My daughter had the biggest smile the whole time and we have tons of photos to show for it.

That is great  

I was able to remove myself from the drama but staying calm... .not engaging in my ex-wife behavior.

Really admirable! Being able to not engage is half the battle. I admire your restraint, and managing to get both daughters to Yellowstone in spite of things.

But on the inside it is maddening. I've lost sleep trying to think how I can protect my daughter from this kind of thing. I thought this was a good place to vent... .I'm not sure if anyone here has been through similar.

Our kids have to deal with emotional challenges, mainly severe invalidation of how they feel, or invalidation of their reality by a BPD parent. And then they have to deal with the real world disappointments, whatever they may be, usually a result of a BPD parent's inability to deal directly with reality  which affects the kids.

I can see how you would be worried about both. For the emotional invalidation, the surest way to respond is to validate her feelings. "How did it feel when mom took you to the doctor and said you had chest pains?" Let her learn from her own responses that she's aware mom is sometimes running amok with the truth. In Warshak's book, Divorce Poison, he stresses that we have to get very clever at teaching our kids the difference between privacy, withholding, white lies, lies, etc.

As for the real effects of the medical overdrama, my SO works in a hospital and he mentioned that there is a risk management group who deal with patients who have factitious disorders, including Munchausen by proxy (sometimes called medical child abuse). I wonder if your hospital has a group like that, and if you can open a conversation with them?

Maybe say that you have some concerns that your ex is reporting issues that are not factual, even though there was a serious medical condition that is being managed well.

Whatever you do, document everything.

[ForeverDad]

My ex did this too.  One night she said my young son had a high fever, but by the time the urgent care took his temperature it was 99 something.  Believe it or not, she didn't have a thermometer and so had no proof what his temp was.

Over the years, particularly when we were in court disputes, there were visits to the ER just to claim I was not parenting well, or abusively.  Her typical statement was "my son told me ___" which of course they accepted.

No one ever stated out loud they had MbyP concerns (another term these days is Factitious Disorder).  Finally, after 8 years in and out of court the ruling was, in part, that mother needed counseling but they weren't going to order it because it would cost her money.   I guess only if there are huge repercussions, like the parent making the child really sick, will they do something about it.

Parents, even divorced parents, can request copies of the medical records.  In most states it is a statutory right parents have by default.  It got to the point that the local children's hospital records staff recognized me and often didn't even charge me for the copies.