How did you finally ask/say you wanted divorce?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have been firmly entrenched in this dance and it really seems like we are headed towards implosion.  Whether of my own doing or forced to protect myself I feel like the end is near.

My question to those who finally had the courage to either ask for a divorce, or just proceed on your own,

What did you actually say to your spouse?  How did you ask or let them know?

Out of the house? With others around?  Surprised with papers?

Did you ease into the conversation or was it like dropping a bomb?

Frankly I'm terrified of having this conversation and hoping to hear from others how they managed to get through it.
Thanks,
-Oz

[ozmatoz]

I have been firmly entrenched in this dance and it really seems like we are headed towards implosion.  Whether of my own doing or forced to protect myself I feel like the end is near.

My question to those who finally had the courage to either ask for a divorce, or just proceed on your own,

What did you actually say to your spouse?  How did you ask or let them know?

Out of the house? With others around?  Surprised with papers?

Did you ease into the conversation or was it like dropping a bomb?

Frankly I'm terrified of having this conversation and hoping to hear from others how they managed to get through it.
Thanks,
-Oz

[lpheal]

I've read through your posts, and the level of your wife's rage sounds very similar to mine. I know it's often said on this site, but reading some of what your wife says I wonder if we are married to the same person.

Anyway, I'll just say it has been recommended to me (from multiple people including the attorney) than I do not tell her in person and do so in a letter instead. I have a recent post discussing what I should/would put in that letter.

I'm realizing that extricating yourself from these relationships when there are children is very complicated. I've spent the last 4-5 months trying to figure this part out, at least enough to prepare me for whatever comes my way next. Every few days or week I figure out one more piece of the puzzle, and I feel like pretty soon I will feel the click telling me it's time.

[livednlearned]

Hi ozmatoz,

I'm sorry for what you're experiencing right now  

The agony of being in limbo, one foot in the marriage and one foot out, can feel all-consuming and truly dreadful.

How you tell your spouse probably depends in some part on what she is like.

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse) splits people with personality disorders into three groups:

generally cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, dangerous

If you are married to someone who falls into that last category, you might want to put as much thought into your safety plan as you do into what you say (and how).

Dangerous, by his definition, can mean legal abuse (false allegations of child abuse, false allegations of DV, actual DV, threats of suicide, or attempted suicide, etc.), as well as comorbid substance abuse.

In my case, after planning for roughly a year, I was going to move out while my ex was away at a conference. He seemed to sense something was afoot, and on the day he started to block access to credit cards and bank accounts, I left abruptly, a week before scheduled. Then I sent a letter that I had been writing with feedback from my therapist. With my parents and my lawyer in the pool of light now shining on the marriage, n/BPDx became very kind, very accommodating, and kind of spooky. I'm glad I was seeing a therapist and had a lawyer lined up so that others could help me process what was happening. It can feel very disorienting to leave an abuser, and part of you will still be in the FOG, doubting yourself and your own perception of things.

I would characterize my ex as not cooperative, dangerous, so safety was my main concern, not just for me but for our son, who was 9 at the time. I wanted to shield S9 from the dysregulation.

What do your instincts tell you about what you should do or say to your wife?
 

[ozmatoz]

Ipheal I have read your story and some posts and yikes it really sounds like we are married to the same person. I will say that the physical abuse has subsided (for now) but the verbal vomit continues and I really can't tell when its going to be triggered.  We mostly just stay away from each other now when we are in the house.  The less I say to her the better.  I think she wants me to talk to her, but there is nothing I can say... .I am the trigger.

I read the letter you wrote and man its like something straight out of my own mind.  I agree with others on the post there was probably more there for you than for her.  My T has been telling me stay away from apologies as they only get weaponized.  Hard to do, been apologizing to her for 17 years!

Every day little by little things start to click for me too.  The fact that she's cut off my parents, keeps me on the shortest leash possible and frankly makes fun of me for working out and seeing a T.  Thinks staying healthy is being selfish when I should be using that time to meet the non-negotiables list she gave me that is required to save our marriage.  Of course I'm not allowed to send her a list... .then when pressed she threatend  "be damn sure the things on your list are your limits and be ready to live with the consequences if I say no"  My guess is she'll say no to whatever is on there even if its something that benefits her.  I never bothered to send it.

I will be meeting with my attorney some time next week and I'm sure she'll bring up the TRO option and like you I feel that in the end it may not be worth it to drop the nuke and could possibly cause more long term damage.  I have the advantage now though that my wife was arrested one night for DV against me and I have her on video stating that she would file false abuse claims and do whatever it takes to get me out of the house.  I would think that any false claims could be shut down pretty quick but I'll let my attorney advise me there.

Best of luck to you.

livednlearned  The Limbo sucks.  I feel like I am just trying to buy time to get stuff in order with the attorney.
 In the mean time I have friends seeing me come out of my shell a bit and have tried to get me back into a reasonable social life... .its like I can see the oasis and I haven't had a drink of real life in so long but every step I take it doesn't feel like I get any closer. 

I've read Splitting and am trying to read it again, my spare time is so short these days.
I would say that my wife has never been cooperative and until recently was not dangerous.
There was about a 3 month window where she was firmly in the last category but does not have any co-morbid substance abuse.  The last few weeks have been just verbal jousting but I am acutely aware that physical violence has already happened.  This is where my T and attorney are going to have to help me.  I'm terrified for my kids mostly.
I believe that my wife doesnt want me to see the T and has cut off my parents because they too have now shone light on the situation I'm dealing with.  My parents have told me they would support a divorce decision if it finally comes to that and have offered their condo to me temporarily (they have a second home).

My instincts tell me that through all the BS and lawyer and divorce threats she really doesn't want to get divorced.  I think she realizes how much her life would change.  I think that is where some of the rage comes from, that because I am no longer willing to put up with this I am therefore cutting her legs out from under her and "her" children and that makes me enemy #1. She has often said that the girls D10 , D16 should be able to stay in their home until D10 is 18.  And since she "knows" she'll get primary custody she gets to stay in the house and I move out.  Well newsflash I can't afford the house and my own place, she knows this but continues to tell me that if I have to live in a cardboard box to keep her and "her" girls lives as normal as possible then thats what "I will do".

I see it going down where no matter how or what I tell her she will act like a spoiled child.  Kick, yell, scream, complete dysregulation followed by tears and begging to not do this.

What do I say to her?  I don't really have a clue yet.  Part of me hopes she gets fed up enough and follows through her threat of divorce and files.  I know she'd think she was trying to use it as a weapon to control and change me, but I'd call her bluff and move forward with the divorce... .  This is wishful thinking of course.

I'll let you know what the attorney recommends.

Thank you both for replying.
-Oz

[ForeverDad]

I read the letter you wrote and man its like something straight out of my own mind.  I agree with others on the post there was probably more there for you than for her.  My T has been telling me stay away from apologies as they only get weaponized.  Hard to do, been apologizing to her for 17 years!

My ex wasn't disordered much at the first.  She gradually worsened over the years, starting with co-workers.  Then I got the silly idea she would be happier with a child and enjoying the discoveries of life.  But instead she relived her childhood fears through him.  Lesson learned, though late:  Children are blessings but having children complicate an already dysfunctional relationship and really complicate unwinding it.

But toward the end (Y2PreD = second year before separation and divorce) she was always demanding I apologize.  Then she would make me reword it according to how she wanted it worded, sometimes as much as a half dozen times before she was satisfied.  But it didn't help at all.  So after several months of fruitless appeasing I stopped.  I told her I henceforth would apologize only when I felt an apology was merited.  Yeah, that didn't go over well either.  But I had tried (my Good Guy trait) and failed so I set a Boundary.

She has often said that the girls D10 , D16 should be able to stay in their home until D10 is 18.  And since she "knows" she'll get primary custody she gets to stay in the house and I move out.  Well newsflash I can't afford the house and my own place, she knows this but continues to tell me that if I have to live in a cardboard box to keep her and "her" girls lives as normal as possible then that's what "I will do".

What do I say to her?  I don't really have a clue yet.  Part of me hopes she gets fed up enough and follows through her threat of divorce and files.

Or you could file.  I only say that since you know if she filed she would include all sorts of unsubstantiated allegations.  On the other hand, if you go first then she could always makes allegations in her response.  But at least then you could claim they were after-the-fact "sour grapes".

Court will not make you live in a cardboard box.  Your lawyer will tell you there's a formula for child support and that addresses your own living expenses.  I don't know whether she can get spousal support during the divorce.  (I didn't pay any alimony until the final decree.)

Frankly, you know you can't afford two homes.  If you do move into a home provided by your family, beware of free accommodations beyond the first month or two in case your court would conclude your living expenses are next to zero.  Also, don't get an apartment too small for you and your two daughters to live in.  You don't want stbEx to claim it's too small for the girls to live with you on your parenting time.  So that means a 2 bedroom apartment.

Also you need to take the position from the start of the case that (1) The family home is simply too expensive to be financed by either of you separately.  Ask that the home be sold and the home equity split half to each.  Then you each can choose your own affordable residences.  (2) If she is not already working, then ask the court to require her to seek and obtain work so the "transition" from married to single life is not worse than it needs to be.  (Child support is not supposed to include support for her.)

[livednlearned]

Also you need to take the position from the start of the case that (1) The family home is simply too expensive to be financed by either of you separately.  Ask that the home be sold and the home equity split half to each.  Then you each can choose your own affordable residences.  (2) If she is not already working, then ask the court to require her to seek and obtain work so the "transition" from married to single life is not worse than it needs to be.  (Child support is not supposed to include support for her.)

A lot of us got really worked over on the refinancing or selling of marital homes.

Let us know if you want feedback on that. There's a lot of good collective, proactive wisdom that can help you use leverage to keep things moving forward. Stonewalling and obstruction can add tens of thousands of dollars to our divorces

[ozmatoz]

ForeverDad I too have had her demand to me how to say something. Whether it was an apology or admitting god knows what. What a demeaning experience, to have someone need to have that extreme level of control over someone else. It always left me feeling so empty.

I often thought I wouldn’t have the guts to file as she has a good network and very favorable standing in our small town. She would very quickly switch from persecutor to victim status on me. Although I like your thoughts that any allegations in the response could be seen by the courts as “sour grapes”. Something to consider.

I probably won’t have to pay much alimony, in my state the standard is that any income (up to $250k) that is used for child support cannot also be used in alimony calcs. Of course it’s up to the judges discretion. I know she’ll ask for it. Sometimes they define a max “support” and then split it into the two categories.
I would definitely only look at 2br apartments. There are some 3br condos available a few towns away that may be an option.
My folks place would certainly only be free temporarily. They are looking to sell it in order to finance renovations on their other home. If I were to stay there for any extended time I would certainly have to pay them rent so they could finance the other home’s addition.

Livednlearned The home would have to be sold, I couldn’t afford to refi and buy her out. Her half of the equity plus child support would be just too much to cover.
Sad it’s a beautiful new place. If I had the girls and didn’t have to pay support and she was out of the picture I could swing it, but back in the real world I’d be happy with 50/50 across the board.   

I would like some advice on the marital home,  as I know my wife has stated I can either buy her a $50k ring or expect a $50k divorce.  Probably best to start that on a new thread as it would probably be great shared wisdom I wouldn’t want to get lost on this thread.

Thank you both.
-Oz