When Did the Fight Leave Your Cluster B?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Eight months into divorce proceedings with my BPD/NPD/ASPD.  Two children, 13 and 7.

She fled the state after an intervention, came back and entered therapy for three months, signed mediation agreements, abandoned her therapy, ripped up those mediation agreements, and is now digging in with 100% oppositional defiance.  Stopped taking the Lamictal that was helping her for a few months there, because there's got to be nothing wrong with her.

I have court orders for 80/20 custodianship of the kids; but she breaks the custody schedule routinely.  I've forced her to use a moderated communications app for messaging; but she swears and rages and diatribes on record.  I got the court to put her on a stipend after she spent $50,000 in 90 days; but she demands her stipend be increased to $17,000 per month.  She skips court-ordered randomized drug tests.  She harassed the psychiatrist who diagnosed her with bipolar and substance abuse issues so he wouldn't appear in court, and is now threatening to sue her ex-therapist who diagnosed her with BPD/ASPD.

The stipend, the drug testing, monitored communications, letter after letter from my lawyer - all assertive boundary-setting intended to apply pressure.  She found a negative advocate lawyer who encourages litigation against medical professionals, the intervention specialist, anything to fuel angry victimhood and bring in more legal fees.  The fight is exhausting.  She seems to have a limitless will to avoid exposure and evade her comeuppance.

We have a full custody evaluation in process, it will have taken over three months by the time it is over.  Psych testing, multiple interviews, evidence review.

I am wondering if you all have stories to share about the event or boundary or legal stipulation that finally convinced your Cluster B to stop fighting and switch into the Guilty Perpetrator state of being?  I have tried so many "interventions", putting my career on hold this entire year to focus on this process for my children, and while she cannot fool anyone for long, I still worry about a CE who might not go on record with strong enough recommendations (maybe they'll be next on the litigation list?) or a judge who might get hooked by the noise/confusion of trying to discredit all the professionals.  I know I might be asking for a magic bullet here, but this community is so rich with experience it is the only place to ask for such things!

[Chip and Charge]

Eight months into divorce proceedings with my BPD/NPD/ASPD.  Two children, 13 and 7.

She fled the state after an intervention, came back and entered therapy for three months, signed mediation agreements, abandoned her therapy, ripped up those mediation agreements, and is now digging in with 100% oppositional defiance.  Stopped taking the Lamictal that was helping her for a few months there, because there's got to be nothing wrong with her.

I have court orders for 80/20 custodianship of the kids; but she breaks the custody schedule routinely.  I've forced her to use a moderated communications app for messaging; but she swears and rages and diatribes on record.  I got the court to put her on a stipend after she spent $50,000 in 90 days; but she demands her stipend be increased to $17,000 per month.  She skips court-ordered randomized drug tests.  She harassed the psychiatrist who diagnosed her with bipolar and substance abuse issues so he wouldn't appear in court, and is now threatening to sue her ex-therapist who diagnosed her with BPD/ASPD.

The stipend, the drug testing, monitored communications, letter after letter from my lawyer - all assertive boundary-setting intended to apply pressure.  She found a negative advocate lawyer who encourages litigation against medical professionals, the intervention specialist, anything to fuel angry victimhood and bring in more legal fees.  The fight is exhausting.  She seems to have a limitless will to avoid exposure and evade her comeuppance.

We have a full custody evaluation in process, it will have taken over three months by the time it is over.  Psych testing, multiple interviews, evidence review.

I am wondering if you all have stories to share about the event or boundary or legal stipulation that finally convinced your Cluster B to stop fighting and switch into the Guilty Perpetrator state of being?  I have tried so many "interventions", putting my career on hold this entire year to focus on this process for my children, and while she cannot fool anyone for long, I still worry about a CE who might not go on record with strong enough recommendations (maybe they'll be next on the litigation list?) or a judge who might get hooked by the noise/confusion of trying to discredit all the professionals.  I know I might be asking for a magic bullet here, but this community is so rich with experience it is the only place to ask for such things!

[david]

My saga started in summer of 2007. The intense chaos lasted until late 2010 early 2011. It was then I had boundaries so strong she could not drag me into court anymore and she "lost" a series of court appearances.
I had an audio recorder and a video recorder by 2010 so the police could see and hear what happened during a pick up. I only communicated through email since late 2008. My emails were only about our kids and nothing more. All attacks were ignored by me. I quoted the court order many times and followed exactly as written until around 2013 or 2014 and then it was minor deviations.
Recently ex has been disregarding the court order but I do not want to go to court for contempt unless she tries something way overboard. This may be a mistake on my part but court is not something I like very much. If she ratchets it up I will have to do something about it. Our oldest now lives with me full time and sees his mom a few times a year. They have little contact. Our youngest is 15 soon and is pretty much on his own when he is at his moms. Several weeks ago ex actually took a vacation and left him there by himself. I found out the second day of a 10 day vacation and picked him up. He stayed with me. He is a teen and would have rather stayed at his moms with no supervision. We have a right of first refusal so she should have contacted me. I document but did not discuss it with her at all. I am sure she wanted the confrontation. Everyone on this site used to say negative engagement is still engagement. I keep my engagement to as minimum as possible. If I contacted her about it there could have been a back a forth email exchange for up to a week. Nothing would have been resolved so I saw no reason to engage.

[Chip and Charge]

I am all for limiting or eliminating engagement.  Thank you for sharing!

My energies are being drained on fighting back on matters I consider critical.  She is spending all her energy to discredit medical professionals, including her ex-tharapist who is my children's current therapist, so that their influence would be diminished or confused by the custody evaluator.  We had negotiated a mediation agreement while she was in therapy, and I'm sure she wants to discredit him in order to re-write history/justify ripping up that mediation agreement.  She flipped, left therapy and stopping taking her medicine when the agreement was being written into a divorce degree.

That was 5 months ago.  It seems like no amount of pressure or threatened exposure will weaken her drive to evade, distort reality, and poison the children with toxic behavior and rhetoric.  Like every great narcissist she feels she will never be caught.  So I document, gather evidence, and fight the important battles.  I am praying the CE does their job - I feel like I have overwhelming evidence but... .the unknown is still the unknown.  Are 100 abusive messages enough?  A dozen schedule violations?  3 reports from licensed professionals?  She even subpoenaed her own therapy notes into evidence, a line I didn't even cross, in an effort to discredit the mediator.  She's in Demigod Perpetrator mode and I feel like I am the lone Avenger in need of backup.

[david]

" she is spending all her energy to discredit medical professionals". I can see how that would be concerning.
 
However, are the medical professionals well known, have a solid reputation, are they good, etc. Remember, she can say anything she wants but she runs the risk of other professional figuring her out ( the custody evaluator). Also, if she does such things in court it may help the judge see it faster. If that happens make sure you have solutions. You don't have to discredit her you just need solutions. Judges like that.

My ex claimed I emptied our house out of everything when she actually had done that. During equitable distribution she had four pages handwritten of items she claimed I took. She valued them at 1.2 million dollars. The true evaluation didn't exceed $40,000. Instead of disproving her I decided to agree with her evaluation. I had a multitude of photos from the internet of her new residence with the majority of those things she had written on those 4 pages. I simply agreed with the valuation and requested my half be in cash and she could keep all the items. Of course, everyone realized her error, except her, and we settled very quickly.

Another example, ex filed a protection from abuse (pfa) against me claiming she was in fear that I was going to him her. I didn't fight it but I found a partial solution. Instead of picking our kids up at her place I would pick them up at their school. This helped her with her fear. Was having a problem because ex would not let the boys take the school bags with them when I picked them up for my overnights. I never brought that up in court but my solution solved that. The judge loved the idea and it became part of the court order. It ticked ex off big time. The first time I went to pick them up at school I was told, by the school, that I needed exs' expressed permission to pick up our boys. I had a copy of the order and gave it to them. Little by little the school figured her out. Eventually they contacted me first and we resolved whatever needed to be resolved. It was then that they contacted ex with their recommendation. She figured I was being excluded so she agreed. When we were together in meetings she always took the opposite position to me.

"she flipped, left therapy and stopped taking her medicine when the agreement was being written into the divorce" I suspect she probably got seriously triggered since the agreement and the divorce were being put together. Fear of abandonment kicked in and that is my guess on why she flipped.

If you were following the agreement prior to her flipping she will need a reason as to why it needs to be changed and how should it be changed.

100 abusive messages are probably too much. Keep them all but find a few that highlight all of them. You can use them and have the rest to show the enormity of the problem.

3 reports from licensed professionals should speak loudly in court if they are pretty much all in agreement. If her therapy notes also back up what the professionals are saying then that is a plus.

Family court doesn't punish parents. That is not their job. They are supposed to do what is in the best interest of the children. Have a plan that the courts will see as being in the best interest of the children.

We were in a custody eval years ago. The evaluator interviewed both boys separately at one of the meetings. The next meeting it was just ex and I. The evaluator started by saying both boys said they loved their mom and dad. He said he was more interested in the things he thought were relevant that would be viewed in a non positive light. I sat there for the entire meeting and listened to the conversation between ex and the evaluator. He never pointed out anything either boy specifically said. He talked in general terms. He pointed out that when either boy was asked to describe a typical day at moms and a typical day at dads he noticed neither boy ever mentioned their mom when talking about their time with her. I was in their conversation.

My ex views anything from me as an attack.I email her to ask what time she will be picking our boys up and, according to the boys, she freaks out and yells at the computer saying I am trying to control her.

I noticed the better I detached emotionally the better I got at dealing with my ex. That took time for me to develop.

[Chip and Charge]

Thanks David for all your thoughts!

All the medical professionals concur.  Intervention specialist pegged bipolar and PDs, substance abuse from just a week of intense interaction.  Therapist/mediator diagnoses BPD/BP/NPD/ASPD, substance abuse, etc.  Psychiatrist diagnoses BP, substance abuse, ADHD.  The psych has backed down in the face of legal threats, written R/O on his diagnoses a couple days before our last hearing, but the first 5 months of treatment can't be changed no matter how hard she fights to rewrite history.  After one visit, psychologist concluded she takes ADHD medicine to get high, not to treat a condition.  I have to imagine the CE *will* see and value all this. 

The last 5 moths of abusive messaging has all been on OurFamilyWizard, the moderated communications app.  She can't help herself.

I appreciate your methods, catching her in the distortions against you.  I have tried to propose consequences like that but end up being convinced into more conservative action.  For example, I gave her the car she drove when she moved out of the house 7 months ago.  She never refinanced the lease so it's still in my name.  When a financial stipend was levied against her in March due to her excessive spending, she used that lease to threaten me - she said if I didn't start paying her lease payment, it would be my credit that suffered.  My idea was: OK, I suppose if the car is still in my name despite the 7 months you had to change it, I will now repossess the car and terminate the lease - I don't need two cars.  That would have a dramatic therapeutic effect.  But my lawyer is conservative and we continue to merely write letters and keep score for later.

I do have solutions.  I already have the kids 80/20 based on preliminary hearings but the schedule needs to be re-arranged to minimize exchanges and interactions (the "80/20 alternating weekend" schedule).  We signed a mediated agreement that I'm still willing to sign - it included a lot of behavioral controls around her and a fair financial settlement.  That offer has been on the table.  We signed it in mediation.  Will the court compel her to accept that agreement with or without a signature?  That would be a solution.

[Nope]

If the parties can't come to an agreement then the court decides and the parties are expected to abide by the court's decision. When the rules are broken it will then be up to you to file asking the court to hold her in contempt for the violations.

It is better that specific consequences are laid out in the court order so that you can simply ask for those consequences and most likely expect to get them when you prove the order has been violated.

Is the mediated agreement allowed as evidence in the court proceedings. In a lot of places anything done in mediation isn't given any weight unless it's already agreed to and registered with the court. If not, court will try to find ways in which it can incorporate any counter offer she brings to the table. (But only where the court finds it reasonable to do so.) Court seldom wants anyone to walk out feeling like they've completely won or completely lost.

Unfortunately that can fuel the BPD's sense of entitlement and keep you both returning to court over and over again.

In my experience, when the courts found significantly in my DH's favor regarding the kids, they bent over backwards to be more than fair to his BPD ex financially. Any costs they could find a way to move to my DH's side of the ledger, they did. They decided that it wasn't in the kid's best interests to have a non-custodial mother drowning in debt. (Of course, they do it to non-custodial fathers without so much as blinking.) This may not be your experience, but you should be forewarned about that possibility.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry you're going through this

She can't help herself.

This is probably the best thing you have going for you.

It takes a while for that to play out, but in my experience, it does play out.

My ex was a former trial lawyer and he could not help himself either.

I ended up with full custody. My ex is no longer in my son's life.

It took roughly 4 years, and it's taken me almost 8 to pay off the legal costs.  

My case made me focus on the technical part of the legal process more than I otherwise would have.

*continue to propose reasonable things that your ex will likely not comply with. Your ex won't comply, but you start creating small, reasonable tasks that she won't complete. When she doesn't complete them, she is defying court. You want to create a pattern of this. A few contempt of court charges can stack up like parking tickets, but a sustained pattern should trigger the court to turn the focus on your ex.

One thing I learned - Judges are considered supreme witnesses of a case.  When my ex started to lose in court, he fired up the appellate process and began to target the judge, for lack of a better word. All that harassment and defiance flowing toward professionals and agreements and orders will most likely eventually turn toward the judge and the court. To that point, don't be worried if the judge scolds or lectures you, even though you're being the law-abiding one -- judges can have rulings overturned if there is evidence of favoritism, so sometimes a judge will go out of their way to lecture you.

My ex was supposed to sign a car title over to me, and didn't. It took three trips to court trying to get the title. At the final hearing, I got a lecture from my judge about how the DMV works, as though I just fell off the turnip truck. At the same hearing, my ex got a good ol' boy chummy story about the judge's experience doing real estate law. But then the judge ruled in my favor.

*make sure your lawyer is the one who writes up any rulings into orders. It will cost you money, but it's worth it. Go over the order before your lawyer goes to court to have it officially entered. Make sure it is watertight and has no loopholes. Don't expect your lawyer to catch this stuff -- it isn't their pain to feel if the loopholes are open, so be the one to close them.

*think about the loopholes carefully and how to create consequences for non-compliance. You have the right idea, so it's probably more a matter of timing, but stay on your L about things like this. For example, if she does not refinance the car by day/date, you will terminate it. I had a good L and she didn't do this -- I don't think she felt the pain quite the way I did, so I took it upon myself to add that language into the order. "C&Cs ex must deal with the lease by day/date. If it is not done, C&C will terminate the lease."

In other words, write into the order what you want the judge to rule when you invariably end up back in court. Don't let the judge decide to give her another bite of the apple. And the fact that the order was entered with both parties present will tell the judge that both parties agreed, therefore the court will run with it.

This all works much more smoothly if you have a good judge. I moved into a different county for that reason, to get myself out of a county known for enabling frivolous lawsuits. Even in the better county with a good judge and a good lawyer, it still took me 4 years to get full custody.

What eventually sealed the deal is that my ex, because he couldn't help himself, painted himself into a corner. In most courtrooms, there is one bailiff. By the fourth year, when our case was on the docket, they called in two bailiffs and started to suggest jail as a consequence for non-compliance.

I do think the dynamics of the professionals involved matter in our cases. They have to be competent and reputable. Judges have to be effective.

And we have to get in there and stay on top of everything while trying to keep our kids whole.

Is your goal to get full custody with no visitation?

[livednlearned]

Also, since you seem to be heading to the big leagues 

You may notice that court softens its approach to your ex even as she escalates her defiance.

Courts know that aggrieved litigants can and do go endanger themselves and others when they lose in court, or feel exposed and judged. People with PDs can feel like they're cornered.

So there is sometimes an aggravating amount of soft pedaling that judges engage in.

I got the impression my judge was trying to weigh the pros and cons of different rulings in terms of safety to me and my son.

[Chip and Charge]

Wonderful perspective and advice as always, livednlearned - thank you!

4 years.  Unbelievable.  That is... .daunting.

*continue to propose reasonable things that your ex will likely not comply with. Your ex won't comply, but you start creating small, reasonable tasks that she won't complete. When she doesn't complete them, she is defying court. You want to create a pattern of this. A few contempt of court charges can stack up like parking tickets, but a sustained pattern should trigger the court to turn the focus on your ex.

The focus is already on her, she has already argued with the judge and has been reprimanded by both the evaluator and the judge.  She's the one being sent for random drug tests and having the children given discretion over their time with her.  The court is on to her early.  She's made claims at hearings that the judge responds with "that's certainly not true" without even bothering to ask for evidence.  No one ever talks about me.  But your advice is precisely what is playing out.  Neutral exchange locations, drug screens, medical records, financial documentation, stopping that disparaging messages... .she fails to comply time and again.

Is your goal to get full custody with no visitation?

When we lived in the same house, I cared for the kids 90%-95% of the time.  I arranged to work from home and retrofit my career around her declining condition and dissociation.  When we separated, she showed signs of progress in therapy and mediation.  She admitted she was bipolar, had a lifetime struggle with uncontrollable rage, and wanted to get better.  We agreed on an 80/20 schedule.  A highly intertwined schedule; she has contact in some way almost every day - so there are dozens of exchanges during the week.  That worked while she was in therapy and accepting of her diagnoses.  But now she rejects them all, blames me and therapists for tricking her, and it makes the schedule a nightmare.  She has of course dedicated herself now to manipulating the children, seeing as I am unavailable to her. 

If she would return to therapy and return to that self-awareness, I would be OK with continuing an 80/20 schedule, but a more traditional low-contact version - 11 days on, 3 days off type of thing.  But that seems unlikely at the moment.  If she remains out of therapy, and the behaviors continue, I must program in consequences such that visitation would be suspended.  The court has given me clues that they won't suspend visitation upfront without physical abuse.  But a repeated pattern of breaking court orders would do it.

[livednlearned]

4 years.  Unbelievable.  That is... .daunting.

Divorcing an attorney with a PD didn't help matters  

The court is on to her early.

That's good. If she wasn't on the higher end of high conflict, this would be great.

But she's losing control and that's grounds for scorching the earth around her.

And honestly, this where family law court gets squishy.

Arresting a parent for failing to comply, when there is clearly a bunch of mental health issues -- that's not a place where courts shine. So they seem to try a bunch of stuff, giving the disordered parent lots of chances to rehabilitate until they have no more free passes left to give.

At a certain point, all you can really do is chip away at visitation and secure legal custody. In the early days of my custody battle, I was told the same thing, that supervised visitation was unlikely. I was told full custody was all but impossible.

My ex's behaviors toward our son were no different than what you read about on the boards. Ex just lost custody because he started to lock horns with the judge. I simply filed a motion for a psych eval, anger management, substance abuse treatment, and some other things. Failure to comply meant I would get full custody.

The judge agreed that was reasonable, and after 4 years of loads of reasonable, suddenly we were doing things the way they should've been done from the start.

so there are dozens of exchanges during the week.

Is this the latest modification you are trying to make in court?

She has of course dedicated herself now to manipulating the children, seeing as I am unavailable to her.

Are they in therapy?

How are they responding to her manipulations?

[david]

Several things stand out to me.

First, the less contact between you and her will probably be best for the kids. This is a good reason to change the schedule in a way that accomplishes that. Documenting the exchanges and the difficulties needs a solution for the kids in court.

Therapy for the kids is a positive for the court.
 
Also, when mom was in therapy, things were better. When she stopped things got worse. That is a change in circumstances that harms the kids. That needs to be resolved. Figure the best solution.
I wrote 95 % of our custody order. I had my attorney read it and asked for suggestions/ recommended changes/etc. We had very good discussions about the difficulties I was having and the reasons why I wanted certain things in the order. There were some things my attorney didn't agree with but I refused to budge. Eventually my attorney had enough dealings with my ex that he realized my ex had some unique behaviors and began to understand some of my things I wanted. My ex was very good at portraying herself the victim in the beginning. She couldn't keep it and showed her true colors.
 
My ex was very good at reading signals. The less info I provided the harder it became for her to keep her story straight or come up with reasonable allegations against me. We were in court once and my ex was lying on the stand. I noticed she was looking at me for my reaction. I took an empty piece of paper and handed it to my attorney. I leaned over and simply said she was lying and pointed to the blank paper. Ex changed her story in mid sentence and changed it to a truthful version. That was when I realized she was capable of anything.

[Chip and Charge]

At a certain point, all you can really do is chip away at visitation and secure legal custody.

That will be my plan.  I hope to start at 80/20, which is what the signed mediated agreement states, which is what the preliminary hearings ordered, and which is what she has proven she can't handle (e.g. 10 exchanges in a row late or violated).

I simply filed a motion for a psych eval, anger management, substance abuse treatment, and some other things. Failure to comply meant I would get full custody.

I got the psych eval and drug testing already.  No consequences attached since these were preliminary hearings.  She skipped her drug test.  I hope the psych eval reveals some of the underlying issues.  Those two things together should allow me to press for orders with consequences attached.

Is this the latest modification you are trying to make in court?

Current schedule is 80/20 but all over the map.  I would push for maintaining 80/20 but sequential - 11.5 days followed by 2.5 days.  Unless the CE suggests she go into an in-treatment program for a while but I consider that unlikely.  

Are they in therapy?

They are.  But my ClusterB is suing their therapist and she actively tells the children not to listen to him.  That he has been in on the conspiracy to punish her all along.  I'll tell you that does not help their therapeutic progress nor their ability to heal.

How are they responding to her manipulations?

The older one (13) is exhausted of her lies and her rages.  He has learned about BPD and is mature enough to understand the psychosis.  He is forced into the role of parenting his parent, and protecting his younger brother.  But he tires of this and withdraws, lets her win, appeases her to avoid conflict - just as I did for 17 years prior.  He needs some distance to process and build strength against the will of the disorders.  But the current schedule doesn't allow for that: he says he can't heal because he "doesn't know what crazy thing is going to happen tomorrow".

The younger one (7) is very conflicted and has become the target of choice, for ease of manipulation.  She keeps him infantilized.  She tells him I am a liar and that if I hadn't made up mommy's "anger issues" to everyone, we all would have been happy together in the house.  She wants him to blame me for the divorce and for her behaviors.  I have a wonderful relationship with him, but... .he is severely confused and is showing his own signs of splitting and doubts of his own self-worth.  Hard to say if it is the divorce itself or her modeling BPD his entire life/genetics.  But I need to get him some distance too.  It is critical for him.

So I work hard at this, all day, every day.

[livednlearned]

I hope to start at 80/20, which is what the signed mediated agreement states, which is what the preliminary hearings ordered, and which is what she has proven she can't handle (e.g. 10 exchanges in a row late or violated).

In a normal high-conflict case, status quo is usually gold. Meaning, if you had 80/20 for 7 months or so, the court would be likely to say, Let's run with this. But your judge is probably tipped off that she is high conflict. She won't be the judge's most disordered parent in court by a long shot, but she is not behaving like someone who is a normal-range parent.

I got the psych eval and drug testing already.  No consequences attached since these were preliminary hearings.  She skipped her drug test.

Consequences can be small. They can also be attached to things she hasn't done, like the drug testing. What about a strategy that says you stick to what is in place until the drug test is completed. Status quo becomes the consequence for her not complying. Or perhaps they stay the same but you add the modification to minimize exchanges -- then you reference evidence that she is struggling to show up for exchanges.

I hope the psych eval reveals some of the underlying issues.  Those two things together should allow me to press for orders with consequences attached.

Maybe. The psych eval for my ex didn't have a diagnosis -- the psychiatrist soft-pedaled by saying "a personality disorder cannot be ruled out, therefore further testing is recommended." But the eval came with a 12-page report and the judge read it. One way to look at this is that the court doesn't care if a parent has a mental illness. Court cares more about the pattern of behaviors, and in your case, there appear to be a lot of arrows pointing toward troubling behaviors in her direction. It is her hole to dig out of, which is also why she is acting out so much. 

Current schedule is 80/20 but all over the map.  I would push for maintaining 80/20 but sequential - 11.5 days followed by 2.5 days.  Unless the CE suggests she go into an in-treatment program for a while but I consider that unlikely.

This might be a pacing thing, which is aggravating but hard to avoid. The glacial pace of court nearly did me in  

They are.  But my ClusterB is suing their therapist and she actively tells the children not to listen to him.  That he has been in on the conspiracy to punish her all along.  I'll tell you that does not help their therapeutic progress nor their ability to heal.

I don't know if this would work in your situation, but in mine, I agreed to sign a waiver that stated the child psychologist would not be called to testify. This allowed her to focus on then S9.

Later on, there was a loophole I didn't anticipate, where the parenting coordinator contacted the child therapist, and they talked. Then, the parenting coordinator testified and made reference to what the child therapist said.

Another possibility is the school guidance counselor or family specialist. If the counselor is good, that can be an important relationship that flies under the radar of your ex. My son really lucked out with his guidance counselors, both in elementary and middle school. It was like having a pressure release valve. He was allowed to check out of the classroom and go sit in the counselor's space and just put his head down if he needed, or talk if that's what he wanted.

So I work hard at this, all day, every day.

I hear you, friend.

It's not an easy path we're on.

I hope the court process leads to the same place I'm in. It's not what I dreamed of for myself or my son, but it's much better than the alternative.

You deserve to be happy  

[david]

You might want to consider just short, no overnights, with mom until she gets into therapy and stays with it, takes her meds, etc. Putting that in the order forces her to do what she needs to do in order to have more time. If she can't follow through she is the one responsible for that. Might even want supervised visitation until certain goals are consistently verified by recognized persons for the court. Puts it all on her.

She needs to show the courts she doesn't have a substance abuse problem, she has a safe place for the kids to be when they are with her, there is some semblance of stability in her life, she is in therapy. This is not about her getting better but about what is best for the kids. If she can't do that why should the courts allow anything more than supervised visits. Also, the alienation could be stopped if properly supervised. If you agree with something you are telling the courts you think the kids are okay with the way things are now. If something happens it was your judgement that allowed it. Judges do not want to take any of the blame or responsibility. Besides, you should know more than the judge because you have more personal information. Judges just want facts that are recognized by the courts as things that are not safe for children and things that are safe for children. Establishing yourself as a stable and positive influence for the children and a willingness to keep mom involved provided she can also provide a positive influence that the courts would recognize is a good course of action.
 
I have a friend whose son passed away. His wife had a small boy (around 2) and she had all kinds of issues including a substance abuse problem. It took close to two years and the courts imposed all kinds of conditions. One was drug testing. She did not abide and lost all parental rights. In fact, the judge told grandma if mom shows up at her residence she is to call the police and they will arrest her. Grandma is now in the process of legally adopting him. That is another few years of visits, etc. Courts are slow by their nature.

My ex used alienation tactics in the beginning. Eventually they backfired on her and she pushed the boys further away. Learning to listen and validate was the key for me. Our oldest lives with me full time and rarely sees her. He did see her on Mothers Day. He came back telling me, along with his younger brother, how she had concocted some crazy story about me growing and distributing pot. They openly laughed at her and she got angry with them. I listened and said little. It didn't make me angry because her story was so out in left field and both boys got it. If  anything, I feel sad for what she has become. This all started in 2007. Obviously, she hasn't gotten the help she needs and, I suspect, never will.

[Chip and Charge]

You might want to consider just short, no overnights, with mom until she gets into therapy and stays with it, takes her meds, etc. Putting that in the order forces her to do what she needs to do in order to have more time. If she can't follow through she is the one responsible for that. Might even want supervised visitation until certain goals are consistently verified by recognized persons for the court. Puts it all on her.

That is precisely what I wanted and what I asked for at our last preliminary hearing.  My PD went straight after the medical professionals to confuse the judge and that's when the custody evaluator was assigned.  The judge shrugged his shoulders, not wanting to take responsibility as you pointed out.  My gut feeling is that the court wants to see blood before they impose supervised visitation.  They don't give as much weight to emotional abuse as they do to physical abuse, and it covers them.  Whether the CE will impose severe recommendations is an unknown.  So far the CE is doing well to play impartial despite an already mountainous (in my view anyway) pile of evidence.  I am hoping with substance abuse on the record and drug tests skipped, we can skip ahead to the extreme consequences. 

I am not optimistic, but secretly hopeful.

[david]

See how much evidence you can gather for court. He said/she said doesn't work in court. You need experts to explain in court what you already understand. The judge will follow expert testimony. The problem is that is expensive.
 My ex claimed I was the one with the problem and wanted me to be tested. I obliged provided she also be tested. My attorney was horrible and didn't know how to present material. Later I found a better attorney and things started working. MY first attorney just liked to make as many billing hours as possible. My second attorney listened, told me what to expect, what could and could not be done, what was important in my county to the courts. Knowing all that I was able to gather what he needed. I had other things but they didn't matter in our county.
Another thing that is extremely important that I learned along the way. Evidence holds much more weight in court then verbal testimony. Evidence must be presented in court as evidence and the there is a procedure to tag it and introduce it. Everything must be in threes, one for the court and one for each party. It takes time in court and courts don't care for it because it takes time. However, judges MUST make decisions based on the evidence presented. If they disregard solid evidence their decision can be challenged. My new attorney introduced evidence. He explained that it was time consuming and that I would simply sit there and do nothing during that time.
One of my issues with ex was that she was not helping either boy with their school work even though she had majority time. I copied every homework. I signed everyone and when ex noticed I was signing and dating them she did the same. Ex dragged things out with legal delays. She never helped either boy. I had over a years worth of copies of homework. The pile was 6 to 8 inches tall. I made a single sheet on top with all the vital statistics. The boys did over 95 % of their homework when with me. The little that was done at exs was either incomplete and/or incorrect. The judge looked at the pile and noticed the top sheet. He handed it to ex and asked if it was correct. If she agreed that single sheet was introduced as evidence. If she didn't then we would have several days of going through each pice of the pile. Ex agreed knowing I was not lying. That was the most dramatic piece of evidence. That kind of stuff works great in court. It put my ex into a bind because she had no rebuttal. The judge copied and pasted my schedule exactly as I asked. It wasn't the "normal" type of custody schedule in our county but it was what I thought best. The custody evaluator challenged me about the schedule and I gave my reasons. The judge questioned me too and I gave the same answers. I don't know if he had anything from the evaluator about his challenging me but he did ask some of the same questions. By then I was no longer intimidated by being in court. I was relaxed and felt confidant with me reasons. I also said I was willing to change if the circumstances changed.

[justaboutdone]

I am all for limiting or eliminating engagement.  Thank you for sharing!

My energies are being drained on fighting back on matters I consider critical.  She is spending all her energy to discredit medical professionals, including her ex-tharapist who is my children's current therapist, so that their influence would be diminished or confused by the custody evaluator.  We had negotiated a mediation agreement while she was in therapy, and I'm sure she wants to discredit him in order to re-write history/justify ripping up that mediation agreement.  She flipped, left therapy and stopping taking her medicine when the agreement was being written into a divorce degree.

That was 5 months ago.  It seems like no amount of pressure or threatened exposure will weaken her drive to evade, distort reality, and poison the children with toxic behavior and rhetoric.  Like every great narcissist she feels she will never be caught.  So I document, gather evidence, and fight the important battles.  I am praying the CE does their job - I feel like I have overwhelming evidence but... .the unknown is still the unknown.  Are 100 abusive messages enough?  A dozen schedule violations?  3 reports from licensed professionals?  She even subpoenaed her own therapy notes into evidence, a line I didn't even cross, in an effort to discredit the mediator.  She's in Demigod Perpetrator mode and I feel like I am the lone Avenger in need of backup.

Chip and charge,  just wanted to share some advice of my own.  I don't have time to read the whole thread so take my advice with a grain of salt.  I remember being about where you were at with overwhelming amount of evidence and everything looking very favorable to me while I watched her flounder until we had our final hearing.  In the end, every single court professional, GAL, custody evaluator, child therapists, my therapist all agreed that I should have custody despite my career implications.  But had you asked me during the months leading up to the final hearing, I didn't think they would see it as clearly as I did.  But they did see it!  My only regret is not demanding more protection for the kids from mom.  I wish I had gotten something like 3 to 6 months of supervised visitation with mom and then a health professional making the final decision to drop the supervised visitation.  Had I done that, I think the kids would have benefited significantly.

[Chip and Charge]

It wasn't the "normal" type of custody schedule in our county but it was what I thought best.

All good advice.  What was the unique aspect of your recommended schedule?  Was it granted?

[Chip and Charge]

My only regret is not demanding more protection for the kids from mom.

Did the custody evaluator end up using recommendations that you yourself guided them towards, and you felt should have been stronger?  Or do you feel you could have been stronger in translating what the CE output on their own into stronger recommendations to the court?

Thank you for contributing to the discussion!  So helpful.

[ForeverDad]

My impression from my court experience was that the judge or magistrate took the position that "I don't know these litigants nor the children.  What are they each seeking?  I will assign professionals to evaluate them and report back their observations and recommendations."  I was in and out of court from 2005 (22% time) to 2013 (75% time).  The magistrate never even met my son until 2013 when my ex wanted an in camera interview (magistrate and GAL) which backfired on her.  During that time I had a mediator, one of the court's social workers for a parenting investigation, a Custody Evaluator and a Guardian ad Litem (GAL or kid's lawyer).  Judges typically are reluctant to make decisions, preferring to wait and wait for a settlement or, failing that, an independent professional's recommendation.  While our cases can and do result in settlements surprisingly often, it usually doesn't happen until late in the case when a major hearing or trial is looming and the disordered parent can't posture and delay any more.

[livednlearned]

Did the custody evaluator end up using recommendations that you yourself guided them towards, and you felt should have been stronger?  Or do you feel you could have been stronger in translating what the CE output on their own into stronger recommendations to the court?

I could be wrong, but from your descriptions of what the judge is saying to your ex, and how dysregulated she is (suing and harassing multiple professionals), I think you can be relatively bold in what you propose.

It's often more about how we suggest things than what we suggest, especially when you have third-party professionals involved.

For example, if you say to the CE, "For the kids' sake, I recommend this 80/20 schedule where there are fewer exchanges than what we are doing now. In my opinion, these constant exchanges are really tough on the kids, and frankly they seem tough on ex because they trigger dysregulations that are hard for her to manage, and that stuff trickles down to the kids. They're still a ways off from learning skills to help manage that kind of reactivity."

"I also propose taking a raincheck on overnights for now. Ex was doing much better when she was receiving treatment, and the kids really benefited from that, but she's not ready to go there right now. I don't know the best way to suggest this, but I could imagine a graduated plan where we put overnights on pause for now, then introduce them back in when mom is in treatment. After that, we can reassess and see how the kids are doing. I'm also thinking it may be best to have the kids work with a child psychologist who signs a waiver to not testify. That may give the kids a safe place to heal, and minimize some of the threat mom feels about stuff showing up in court."

That's just a suggestion.

You seem to have enough evidence that your ex is prone to high conflict, which makes it a little easier to make suggestions that may be more proactive than what the professionals would suggest.

[david]

I second what lnl said. That is excellent advice.

[Chip and Charge]

Very on-point advice from all.  My lawyer is quick to point out that my idea of common sense evidence is not necessarily "trial evidence," which I understand.  But I hope it is enough to garner the correct recommendations at this stage.  Thank you everyone!

[david]

Family court looks for different things in different counties. They follow what they have followed in the past. Talk to your attorney and see if you can figure out what specific things your court looks for. If you have the time you can go to family court and sit in on hearings. It may give you ideas. My first attorney was horrible and it took me time to figure it out. My second attorney was excellent and we were a team working towards a common goal. He told me what to expect, was the courts were looking for, what worked and what didn't. The first meeting went for over two hours and he didn't charge me. I did most of the talking explaining my particular circumstances and concerns. I was reasonable, in his view, and we hit it off. I was documenting by then so I was able to give him a lot of things that he said was important. I figured other things out that I had never thought about. Over a period of a year I was able to give him so much solid evidence it was easy. Ex dragged things out in court which gave me more time to gather evidence for my attorney. There were things he didn't think were important and he told me. He kept it all.