Standing Up to BPDm?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Been almost two weeks without an in-my-face blaming/dramatic/shame session. Had one really long session on Monday (because I was going to T and she doesn' want me going - even though by the time I returned home she'd conveniently forgotten that I went). Tried every approach therapist had recommended: redirecting, validating, trying to leave the rooms (she physically prevented me twice), saying we couldn't talk about it anymore. BPDm followed me around the house telling me that I was cruel, unloving, unkind, fake, and not working on a relationship with her. Ended up in tears at T because literally left the house with BPDm following me around telling me that I was selfish because I wasn't caring about her feelings at all and not helping her. (Funnily enough, she kept doing a certain gesture with her arms the whole time that reminded me of a certain WWII gesture.)

T said I wasn't standing up to BPDm because I had not set/kept boundaries by saying stop or that I would go away possibly permanently and then leaving the house. T said I needed to stand up to BPDm or things would just keep getting worse.

Had another massive emotional outburst from her today when I got back from an interview (for a second job which I what I need to be able to leave) and BPDm wanted to know if I planned on attending my "evil brother's wedding." I said yes and the day went downhill from there. I said she needed to stop talking to me about it and if she wanted to talk about it, I would schedule T session (another suggestion from T). I also said that I would leave since BPDm said I was betraying her and should think about somewhere else to live if I went. BPDm said no way - therapy was not helping.

My question is about the whole current situation: Have I been making things worse because I have not just left? Is my BPDm going to get worse if I don't leave permanently? Should I have been telling her I was leaving and possibly not coming back until she changed and not doing the redirecting and validation?

Prior to this visit, T has just been telling me how to do redirect and validation as well as ask questions to make her clarify what she is saying. I also got the impression that T is becoming less and less interested in helping me (She has steadily been doing more things during our sessions: typing, fussing with her scanner/printer, eating). Is this because I am staying in the situation (just until I have enough saved up to move for school)? Am I not growing in my ability to understand and try to deal with my situation? Is this just an over-reaction based off of the bad interactions from the past two days?

Feedback is greatly appreciated. A bit cut off at the moment (friends out of town or moved themselves to a different time zone.) Feeling very frustrated, tired, exceptionally sad and lonely tonight.

[guineap]

Been almost two weeks without an in-my-face blaming/dramatic/shame session. Had one really long session on Monday (because I was going to T and she doesn' want me going - even though by the time I returned home she'd conveniently forgotten that I went). Tried every approach therapist had recommended: redirecting, validating, trying to leave the rooms (she physically prevented me twice), saying we couldn't talk about it anymore. BPDm followed me around the house telling me that I was cruel, unloving, unkind, fake, and not working on a relationship with her. Ended up in tears at T because literally left the house with BPDm following me around telling me that I was selfish because I wasn't caring about her feelings at all and not helping her. (Funnily enough, she kept doing a certain gesture with her arms the whole time that reminded me of a certain WWII gesture.)

T said I wasn't standing up to BPDm because I had not set/kept boundaries by saying stop or that I would go away possibly permanently and then leaving the house. T said I needed to stand up to BPDm or things would just keep getting worse.

Had another massive emotional outburst from her today when I got back from an interview (for a second job which I what I need to be able to leave) and BPDm wanted to know if I planned on attending my "evil brother's wedding." I said yes and the day went downhill from there. I said she needed to stop talking to me about it and if she wanted to talk about it, I would schedule T session (another suggestion from T). I also said that I would leave since BPDm said I was betraying her and should think about somewhere else to live if I went. BPDm said no way - therapy was not helping.

My question is about the whole current situation: Have I been making things worse because I have not just left? Is my BPDm going to get worse if I don't leave permanently? Should I have been telling her I was leaving and possibly not coming back until she changed and not doing the redirecting and validation?

Prior to this visit, T has just been telling me how to do redirect and validation as well as ask questions to make her clarify what she is saying. I also got the impression that T is becoming less and less interested in helping me (She has steadily been doing more things during our sessions: typing, fussing with her scanner/printer, eating). Is this because I am staying in the situation (just until I have enough saved up to move for school)? Am I not growing in my ability to understand and try to deal with my situation? Is this just an over-reaction based off of the bad interactions from the past two days?

Feedback is greatly appreciated. A bit cut off at the moment (friends out of town or moved themselves to a different time zone.) Feeling very frustrated, tired, exceptionally sad and lonely tonight.

[Harri]

Hi guineap.  I am glad you came back for support during this very hard time.  It is a lot to manage having a job, applying for grad school, family problems and living with a BPD mother on top of normal life stresses.  Yikes!

Have I been making things worse because I have not just left? Is my BPDm going to get worse if I don't leave permanently? Should I have been telling her I was leaving and possibly not coming back until she changed and not doing the redirecting and validation?

Well, lets take a look at this.   I went back and read your previous posts and it is my understanding that leaving permanently right now is not possible.  Is that still the case?  If so, saying you are going to leave permanently is not going to work.  She knows that is out of reach for you at the moment.  What you can do instead is leave the room, go for a walk, etc, (as you have been doing) after calmly explaining that you are going to leave for a specified period of time if she keeps making false accusations against you or is raging at you.  The thing is, each time she does this, you need to follow through on what you say you will do *every time*.  Otherwise she will learn that you are not firm in your boundaries and she will not take them or you seriously.  Also, she needs to learn how to handle her emotions on her own rather than issuing threats.  As it is, she is going to push your limits because she is used to you doing what you have always done and now you are changing things up.  That threatens her sense of security and can trigger fears of abandonment.  It is not uncommon to see extinction bursts, where the pwBPD will increase the conflict in an effort to get you to return to your usual behavior because that is their normal.  So be prepared and stand firm.

Extinction Bursts  This is an excellent article that talks about extinction bursts and how consistency is so important.  Having appropriate expectations is also important.  The chance that she will stop doing what she is doing after calmly telling her your boundary the first, second, tenth time is very slim.  Consistent repetition is going to be required.  You are also going to have to deal with you own feelings of fear, obligation and guilt that have become embedded into your being.

Should I have been telling her I was leaving and possibly not coming back until she changed and not doing the redirecting and validation?

No, not only is that not possible for you to follow through on, that is an ultimatum.  Stay with the redirection and validation while setting boundaries and following through on them.  Ultimatums will only intensify the conflict and aren't realistic.   

I also got the impression that T is becoming less and less interested in helping me (She has steadily been doing more things during our sessions: typing, fussing with her scanner/printer, eating). Is this because I am staying in the situation (just until I have enough saved up to move for school)? Am I not growing in my ability to understand and try to deal with my situation? Is this just an over-reaction based off of the bad interactions from the past two days?

I have no idea what is going on with your T.  It is also hard to tell if it is simply an over-reaction on your part given the state of affairs right now.  I will say that I would feel very uncomfortable if my T started doing those things during a session.  I recommend asking her directly what is going on.  She is your T so asking her that type of question should be okay with her and she should answer honestly.  If she does not or it leads to conflict then I would say it speaks about the type of T she is.  She might take it very well too.  You won't know until you ask but wondering about it is not a good thing for you if you want to get everything you can out of your therapy.  Also, in therapy is a great place to learn how to confront and resolve conflict.  is asking something you would be willing to do?

Am I not growing in my ability to understand and try to deal with my situation?

Learning to change a lifetime of behaviors and how to respond in new ways is incredibly difficult and it will not happen over night.  Little steps are in actuality very large steps when it comes to this kind of thing.  You are changing things that are deeply ingrained.  It will take time, repetition and consistency.  Even then, you can only try to change yourself.  Your moms behaviors may change as a result of the work you do on yourself, but your goal is to learn self care at this point.

I am glad you came back.  I know you are very busy so read and post as you can.   We are here and we can certainly listen and serve as a source of support for you.

[Mutt]

Hi guineap,

Harri gave you a thoughtful response so I don’t have anything to asked really, expect lashing out like Harri mentioned ( extinction bursts ) because you’re changing really need that age was used to accustomed to and use the boards to help you to get through this. It gets better but there’s a period where it’s tough but consistency and keep driving same message over and over, it will get better.

[Teno]

Prior to this visit, T has just been telling me how to do redirect and validation as well as ask questions to make her clarify what she is saying. I also got the impression that T is becoming less and less interested in helping me (She has steadily been doing more things during our sessions: typing, fussing with her scanner/printer, eating). Is this because I am staying in the situation (just until I have enough saved up to move for school)? Am I not growing in my ability to understand and try to deal with my situation? Is this just an over-reaction based off of the bad interactions from the past two days?

I read that T's testing for NPD will purposely be late to test their clients reaction, I would ask about it.
The last session my T could not stop yawning, I wondered and I did not say anything about it.

[guineap]

Thank you for the responses. I would really like some help working on the FOG issues I have. I know that I have them, but I don't even know where to begin. T said she thinks I need to heal but that I cannot while still at home. One sister has rented a storage locker to share with me and I have been sneaking my stuff out of the house slowly (trying to shed excess stuff at the same time and only have a small trunk in which to stuff boxes), plus I cannot find a roommate at the moment. I know I need to do this, but it is really sad and I do not feel like I have a good place to express this.

After several weeks of what felt like attacks now, BPDm finally said she would go to T together. My T suggested this as a neutral ground but BPDm won't go to my T, will maybe go to hers. I don't expect the group session to happen because BPDm will say one thing for a while and then it will change. She also told me last night that she spoke with her T and that her T wants to talk to her more to make sure a group session is a great idea. BPDm wants me to write a list of all the things she is doing and has done that are "bad and not good enough, so that I will finally accept and respect her."

Not sure how to approach my concerns with T. I am wondering if I do have some mental issues that I need to work on - how does one go about asking about this? I feel emotionally messed up for sure and like I am incapable of having appropriate emotions at all.

I also am concerned because BPDm came to me on Wednesday and said she was still planning a trip (for my youngest bro's high school graduation - she's been talking about it for over a year, and I initially expressed a desire to go) and told me the dates and said could I see if I could get off work. It caught me off guard and I said I would see. I thought about it all yesterday though and am worried. The trip would be one week alone with her, brother, and two youngest sisters in a tent. I do not know what to do or say about it. Advice?

Mostly tired of trying to sort through everything at once. Not sure where to begin with me. Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

[Harri]

Hi guineap.

Okay.  One week camping trip in a tent with your mother, and siblings?  :)oes this sound fun to you in any way?  Is that something you have ever wanted to do with them?  Just how big is this tent?  (sorry, couldn't resist.)  What do you want?  One of the best things someone here told me is that the word No is a complete sentence and if I want to fancy it up a bit I can say No, thank you.

Good for you on doing what you can to get your stuff out and plan for the future.  While living with your mom can make healing more difficult you can make improvements.  I think the problem with still living with her is the power imbalance inherent in the mother child relationship that makes becoming your own person very difficult.  With a non-disordered mother, there are difficulties so it will be that much harder with your mom.  

You asked how to work through FOG.  A good place to start is here:  Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG)  I also think it is a matter of learning what you can about the disorder.  Not to help your mom, but to depersonalize her behaviors and get to a point where you can learn to respond in new ways that will break long-standing behavior patterns of yours.  For me, what helped the most was to learn about projection which is a defense mechanism where the pwBPD projects all the parts of them selves that they can not accept onto another person.  Knowing about that helped me to not absorb the verbal poison my mom would spew on me.  I am not sure what would help you the most right now.  So lets talk about what you have the most difficulty with.

You mentioned feeling that you have some issues that need to be worked on.  First, let me say that of course you do!  **No one** gets out of these kinds of situations and environments without some things that need to be changed or worked on.  :)oes that mean we are crazy?  Nope.  What would be crazy is if we got out of these situations completely unscathed or thought we did!  We are going to pick up poor coping skills and have some behaviors that worked great as survival mechanisms but don't work so well in the real world.  All of that is to be expected.  So, I would suggest asking your T what issues she thinks you have.  :)on't be afraid of the question.  I will tell you she will probably answer by saying something like "Well, what do you think your issues are?" (so annoying <rolly eyeballs here> )     Hopefully she will help you identify things you want to focus on.

I feel emotionally messed up for sure and like I am incapable of having appropriate emotions at all.

Emotions just are.  Seriously.  It is what we do with them and how we act on that that matters.

Thoughts?

[guineap]

 One week camping trip in a tent with your mother, and siblings?  :)oes this sound fun to you in any way?  Is that something you have ever wanted to do with them?  Just how big is this tent?  (sorry, couldn't resist.)  What do you want?  One of the best things someone here told me is that the word No is a complete sentence and if I want to fancy it up a bit I can say No, thank you.

I love camping - just not with my parents. BTW, I've usually had my own small tent or shared with another sister (none of the other siblings are invited). I feel like explaining that to BPDm is a challenge even if I say no. I feel like I need to have a believable explanation to avoid drama. That need may be one of the issues I need to work on?

It has been a weird week with my BPDm. After sort-of agreeing to go to her T with me for a group session and then sort-of backing out, two things happened: My nephew was born and my great-aunt came to visit my grandma (which relationship with is another problem one for me). BPDm has been doing the "nice, amazing mom" act. I fully expect that after great-aunt leaves, that "act" will go away except towards brother's family so she can see the new baby.

I believe that she almost lost control around the great-aunt because one sister brought her dog back over (long story about this animal and I had reservations about it coming back but am trying to simply say that was both BPDm's and sister's choice and I am not responsible for that). I also believe that the trip offer will go away because I am still seeing my T (whom BPDm says is not qualified to help me because she has worked as a social worker) and because I am going to one brother's wedding (the one I am apparentely going to have to leave the house over if I go because it is disrespectful to BPDm). I also don't want to give my little sisters the message that I don't want to hang out with them by not going. How do I tell them they are still important and not cut them out of my life?

I think I feel frustrated that I have to be on edge constantly, that I have to constantly come up with reasons for not being in the house when she thinks I ought to be (i.e. I took more stuff out of the house after church because she stayed home and the extra ten minutes had to be accounted for), that I don't want to be home (but have stuff I need to do), that I cannot consider going on something that should be enjoyable or even find a group or participate in an activity to find outside friends right now because I would have to explain it and deal with that. Is that something I can change? How do I handle stuff like that? BPDm gets upset that I am trying to find another job to leave to go to grad school... .frequently forgets that I've told her I am going (i.e. she got upset that I was getting rid of stuff and had already packed up pictures in my room). I am tired of trying to survive and move forward all at once.

Thank you for the article. I understand that it is her disorder most of the time, but going through an event with her or listening to the endless pointed comments is exhausting and physically demanding and sometimes I just want to quit everything and run away (not practical, I know). What do I do with this? I am physically struggling and failing at finding a good balance. Suggestions?