Fighting on all fronts, 1st thing is child alienation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Greetings,
Just to update everyone, I got a court order finally for right of first refusal.  Unfortunately this doesn’t count for overnights so I can’t increase my overnights, hence lower my child support. (BPDex is extorting as much money as possible)  I did however was able to rearrange my work schedule to my son 5 full days on a 14 day period.   All together I see my son 8 days out of a 14 day period. (5 overnights on a 14 day period).  One more overnight and I will drastically reduce child support and if I get two more overnights on a 14 day period I will have 50/50 custody.  In my state custody is determined by overnights and not parenting time.
This court ruling of right of first refusal has infuriated the mother of my child and her family.  If you read my previous post the mother of my child was raised by abusive parents, narcissistic I presume, and she never had a loving affirming environment. 
I am seeking to find ways to counter alienation from the mother of my child and her family.  Their family loves to create emotional turn moil with my son such:
They create an atmosphere during exchanges such as “a longtime goodbye”.  They will stand there and will be like “oh its ok to go with him” (referencing me).  Think of a movie such as Armageddon where Bruce Willis says goodbye to his daughter, similar to this, they make is seem to my son that this is bad to go with me.
I have attempted to counteract this by bringing his favorite toys with me so he can be distracted but it only works half the time.  The only thing that works is just getting into the car and driving back to our house.
Lately my son has been saying “No Daddy No” however he smiles when he says it which leads me to believe that someone is verbally teaching him this as if he truly didn’t like me he wouldn’t have his body controlling his smiles.
Here are some my ideas that I currently do to create a loving and affirming environment:
We eat meals together
I ask for hugs and tell him I love him everyday
I’m going to start hanging photo collages on the wall in our house and his bedroom to show all the fun times we have together.
We go for stroller rides, bike rides with a toddler trailer and take plenty of vacations.
I can only do so much in the legal system in itself so for right now I can’t go back to court of items of child alienation as I need more proof.  My attorney has agreed with me that the “seeds of child alienation has been planted”  Any ideas of what has helped others in the past would be greatly appreciated.  I’m also not looking to spoil my son as excessive pampering can lead to narcissism in itself.

[Newyoungfather]

Greetings,
Just to update everyone, I got a court order finally for right of first refusal.  Unfortunately this doesn’t count for overnights so I can’t increase my overnights, hence lower my child support. (BPDex is extorting as much money as possible)  I did however was able to rearrange my work schedule to my son 5 full days on a 14 day period.   All together I see my son 8 days out of a 14 day period. (5 overnights on a 14 day period).  One more overnight and I will drastically reduce child support and if I get two more overnights on a 14 day period I will have 50/50 custody.  In my state custody is determined by overnights and not parenting time.
This court ruling of right of first refusal has infuriated the mother of my child and her family.  If you read my previous post the mother of my child was raised by abusive parents, narcissistic I presume, and she never had a loving affirming environment. 
I am seeking to find ways to counter alienation from the mother of my child and her family.  Their family loves to create emotional turn moil with my son such:
They create an atmosphere during exchanges such as “a longtime goodbye”.  They will stand there and will be like “oh its ok to go with him” (referencing me).  Think of a movie such as Armageddon where Bruce Willis says goodbye to his daughter, similar to this, they make is seem to my son that this is bad to go with me.
I have attempted to counteract this by bringing his favorite toys with me so he can be distracted but it only works half the time.  The only thing that works is just getting into the car and driving back to our house.
Lately my son has been saying “No Daddy No” however he smiles when he says it which leads me to believe that someone is verbally teaching him this as if he truly didn’t like me he wouldn’t have his body controlling his smiles.
Here are some my ideas that I currently do to create a loving and affirming environment:
We eat meals together
I ask for hugs and tell him I love him everyday
I’m going to start hanging photo collages on the wall in our house and his bedroom to show all the fun times we have together.
We go for stroller rides, bike rides with a toddler trailer and take plenty of vacations.
I can only do so much in the legal system in itself so for right now I can’t go back to court of items of child alienation as I need more proof.  My attorney has agreed with me that the “seeds of child alienation has been planted”  Any ideas of what has helped others in the past would be greatly appreciated.  I’m also not looking to spoil my son as excessive pampering can lead to narcissism in itself.

[zachira]

Your attorney agrees with you that the seeds of parent alienation are being planted with your son. Times have changed, and many family court judges know exactly what parent alienation is, and the judge will order family counseling with both parents for this and can put into place measures to increase the chances that your son will continue to have a loving relationship with you. You are doing everything you can to have a loving relationship with your son. Usually it is not recommended that you speak badly of the other parent, though in the case of parent alienation, it is important to let your son know that he can love you and love his mother at the same time. A lot of this is about patience and heartbreak with the slow moving court system, yet you have to be very proactive in getting counseling for supportive coparenting ordered by a judge when there is parent alienation going on. I admire you for the wonderful caring father you are and how you are trying to do everything you can to be the best father to your son. Let us know how we can help, and keep us posted on how you are doing. There are many parents on this board who have had problems with parent alienation and can share with you what has helped them.

[kells76]

Hi there NYF;

First of all,  nice work:

I did however was able to rearrange my work schedule to my son 5 full days on a 14 day period.   All together I see my son 8 days out of a 14 day period. (5 overnights on a 14 day period)

Way to keep the focus on what is good for your son.

Sounds like you're looking for some brainstorming about this issue:

I am seeking to find ways to counter alienation from the mother of my child and her family.

Oh man, I can relate to the "long goodbye" nonsense. At first it was really confusing -- if Mom is just "being loving" then why does this feel so weird and why are the kids so torqued out afterwards? You're right -- there is a tacit message being communicated, that "even though Mom doesn't think Dad is safe, she's being a great mom by trying to make the kids go with him". Now, is that confusing to a kid or what? (And what does it say about Mom, huh? If she's so wise and insightful that you're dangerous, why send the kids with you AT ALL? Hmmm... .fishy stuff).

From your description it seems like your son is right there in embodying the confusion:

my son has been saying “No Daddy No” however he smiles when he says it

Dr. Craig Childress has an article about these subtle, tacit ways that parents communicate danger signals to their kids (www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=38&TID=6&FN=pdf). Not all of this communication is bad -- it's just how kids (with not-fully-mature brains) and parents (with mature brains) interact. But it can get pathologized, as you're experiencing with the "danger" signals from Mom about you at exchanges. Hopefully reading the article can help you understand some more about how your son's brain is working with this situation.

I think you're choosing to do some key stuff to counter the subtle messaging from Mom and her family: the meals together, hugs and love, fun experiences, photos. Keep that up for sure.

You can also -- if you think you'll need to go this route for documentation -- have third parties (friends, teachers, pastors, etc) observe you and your son. Have a friend over for dinner with you and your son, volunteer with your son at a church/community event, and record in a journal who was there watching you guys. We've rented out a room in our house to some different friends over the years, and it did help to know that that other person saw us doing "normal" stuff with the kids in everyday life, not yelling or being insensitive or abusive or dangerous -- just normal. Of course, run this idea past your lawyer to see if it meshes with your overall strategy and goals.

Even more importantly, practice validation. If you've read any of LnL's posts the book "The Power of Validation" will sound familiar So when you're in the car with your son after a "long goodbye", you can check in with him (in an age-appropriate way): "What was that like for you when Mommy hugged you for 5 minutes?" You can also start the conversation about the word/body disconnect, which might be a big road in: "I see your face is smiling and your words say No Daddy. Tell me all about it" or something observation-based.

Your son might be a little young for a lot of the more oppositional behaviors and regurgitating of Mom's feelings, but if that's a concern, you can start practicing some jiu-jitsu parenting skills (www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf). The basic premise is that your child, under the pressure of pathogenic parenting, may start to say some really confrontational stuff or engage in particular acting-out behaviors ("You're so selfish, you never listen to me, you left us, I just want you to leave me alone... .". The knee-jerk reaction is to JADE: "I'm not selfish, your mother is for blah blah blah... .I always listen to you, you just don't obey... .We're having dinner as a family and that's final... .". What jiu-jitsu parenting proposes is to use those confrontational words and actions as a doorway to demonstrate, through your actions, that you are in fact the opposite of what Mom suggests you are.

Mom (through her covert actions, communications, and emotional states) suggests you are dangerous, insensitive, bad listener, abusive, the whole 9 yards. If you JADE, you fall right into that trap. If you jiu-jitsu, you take that opposition and roll with it. Son: "I hate you! You never do what I want! You always get what you want!" You (confrontational): "I never want to hear you say that again! I'm always sacrificing for you, and you're ungrateful!" You (jiu-jitsu): "Oh son, I'm so sorry to hear that. You must feel really upset right now. What would you like us to do?"

Hang in there, NYF. You've got a lot of foresight and I hear a lot of love for your son in your posts. Keep that focus on him and build some solid jiu-jitsu skills. Let us know how else we can help;

kells76

[livednlearned]

They will stand there and will be like “oh its ok to go with him” (referencing me).  

It's biologically unnatural for a child to reject a parent, so you have that force working in your favor

The key is to harness that energy.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak has all kinds of tips that will give you an advantage when your son gets older and begins to try out some of the things his mom and grandparents do.

My ex used to say, "you love the dog more than me." My son started to parrot not only that phrase, but versions of that.

I learned to say, "You must feel so sad to say that. Did something happen today that made you feel that way?"

That's emotional validation.

Then I would walk him through a gentle reality check, always with the intent to better understand how he felt. When he was younger, he would occasionally admit he didn't know why he thought I loved the dog more than him, or why he said things.

You want to teach your son how to locate the truth in how he actually feels versus what others tell him he feels.

When your son is with his mom and family, they will probably engage in what Childress refers to as "intent to task" and "intent to change." Including telling him he must change how he feels (e.g. from loving you to fearing you).

If you change your parenting style to "intent to be-with" and "intent to understand," your son will learn what it feels like to be emotionally safe.

People who love him will validate how he feels.

Give him time to soak up that feeling -- that someone recognizes how he feels.

Later, if necessary, when his feelings are sorted out, you can bring it up again. "When you said I had a green head and horns, that made me sad. I don't understand it, because when I look in the mirror, I see something different. Can you help me understand if I did something that made you think I'm green?"

If he tells you that mom said you're green, then validate him again. "That must've been so confusing. How did it make you feel when mom said that?"

Lead him back to his own feelings. He wants to love his dad and be with you -- that's natural. Lead him to ask himself questions about how he truly feels. It will waken his emotional intelligence and emotional resilience, a powerful antidote to alienation.

He may soldier through his time with mom using the kinds of skills needed to survive emotional invalidation. But when he's with you, he can breathe, and relax. He can say how he feels and you will listen and believe him.

That is gold to a child who has a BPD parent.

[Newyoungfather]

Thanks everyone for your tips and support. I am going to pick up divorce poison, my attorney actually has a lot of the books that people mention on this forum in her office and that's one of them.  I can pick up more time with my son however I want to be prepared with the tools I need to combat their actions.

[livednlearned]

Thanks everyone for your tips and support. I am going to pick up divorce poison, my attorney actually has a lot of the books that people mention on this forum in her office and that's one of them.  I can pick up more time with my son however I want to be prepared with the tools I need to combat their actions.

Are you in therapy? If not, it might be especially important to do so now, with alienation on the table. It's really, really tricky stuff and if you grew up in an invalidating environment (which can happen even if your parents are *good*), then you'll need some help deciphering what your son says and does.

I also found it helpful to check in with a child psychologist -- my T had someone who had retired from clinical practice, but who would occasionally come in for joint sessions to help me understand what it meant to be emotionally healthy for my son, for his development and age.

[kells76]

Really good advice from LnL:

Are you in therapy?

I also found it helpful to check in with a child psychologist

If $ is an issue, some local universities and community colleges offer low/no cost parenting consultations with their grad students or child development departments. Our CC does a Saturday morning program where you take your kid to playgroup (supervised) and then you and other parents talk parenting skills with a facilitator. I think it's free. It might not be the most specifically focused program (i.e. not tailored to PA situations), but you could (a) get it documented that you're attending, and (b) have another forum for asking development questions -- like, "My son says No Daddy No after his mom hugs him for 5 minutes and tells him it's OK to go with me, but he's smiling the whole time. What's going on?"

Some churches also host parenting classes -- same deal, likely free or low cost, and while not specifically for high-conflict situations, would get you a documented place to discuss concerns.\

Involvement with either kind of group would likely help you network with the child counseling community in your area. Might be a helpful way to see who would be a good fit for your situation -- you could get a sense ahead of time that Group A's leader was kind of wacky and out there, but Group B's leader had a good head on his shoulders and could point you to solid help.

[Panda39]

Lately my son has been saying “No Daddy No” however he smiles

One of our members david talked about making some of these types of things into a game with his sons, that took the power out of them.

"No Daddy No" with a smile sounds to me like your son thinks it's a game.  Maybe away from mom you can some how tease him about it and make it a game.  Son how come you said "No Daddy No"?  (Don't give him time to answer)What about "Yes Daddy Yes"? and chase him and tickle him.  Then the "No Daddy No" show satisfies mom's need for the performance but means something totally different to you and your son.

Panda39

[Newyoungfather]

@Panda39-wow that's an amazing way to counteract this.
@Kells76 and LivedNLearned- Yes my church has therapy and it helped me a lot.  For instance, for a long time I was so angry at my BPDex but my church pastor (who happened to be a therapist as well) gave me an analogy so to say that relieved me of anger.  T would state "picture a specials needs school and one of the students striking their teachers, although its wrong that student dosn't have the same mental capacity to understand on a level that me and you would, the teachers are trained on how to handle the situation, this dosn't mean the student shouldn't be held responsible for their wrong actions, it just means "you" need to be that teacher and respond with ways to effectively communicate with the other party"
This session helped me a lot because it shows that the BPD will be held accountable but on a level that they will understand.  I used to be so angry at the outburst, the fights until I realized that its embedded in her core values to act out that way.  Setting up firm communication boundaries such as responding only by email, unless for emergencies, went a long way, I now always ignore the rant and raving text messages and she finally understood that she can't provoke me that way anymore.  I had to communicate in a way that she would understand such as she wouldn't get drama on my part from the text messages.

[david]

Our youngest used to always accuse me of being abusive, a monster, etc when we first separated. Same thing ex did. Of course, it was all in her mind or it was projection on her part.
This went on for a few months and then one day S5 said I was a monster. I was sitting down at the time. I stood up and put my arms out like Frankenstein. I chased him around the house and he loved it. After that he only wanted the daddy monster to chase him. After that incident he never said I was abusive, a monster, etc except when he wanted to have me chase him.
I found humor worked well to defuse the vitriol from my ex. It took a few months but it worked. Eventually, ex kept doing/saying the same things when they were with her, it started to backfire. Our boys would tell me some of the things she was doing/saying. I listened and validated their perceptions. I was very careful to not attack ex.
I also used to be accused of always punishing them. One day I stopped at a Wawa to get a coffee. I bought an Icee for the boys. I opened the car door and in a stern voice said, "You boys better enjoy this Icee or I will punish you like you have never been punished before". They were startled but within a few seconds they both smiled. After that time, they would ask me to punish them which translated into they wanted to get an Icee.

[Newyoungfather]

Thanks David, those are really good examples. Where you able to do anything legal about the things your ex said said to your children.  In my state there are factors that determine custody and one of them revolves around child alienation. Funds are running a little low for me to take exBPD back to court but I plan on keeping all emails.

[david]

Our boys were 5 and 7 at the time. I didn't think the courts would have helped much with alienation at that time. I focused on their school work which ex was a real problem with. The courts in this county listen to that. I copied every homework from our youngest. He did over 95 % of his homework when he was with me even though ex had majority of time with him during school. My attorney thought this was a better strategy. I filed and ex dragged things out for over a year and a half. She still didn't help with their homework. I had a pile of homework that stood over 6 inches. I had a top sheet with it all spelled out in detail. The judge looked at the pile, which was being introduced as evidence, and saw the top sheet. He handed the top sheet to ex and asked her if it was correct. It was her choice to agree or disagree. She agreed and the judge put the top sheet into evidence. Evidence holds much more weight than verbal testimony in family court. Judges must make their decisions on the evidence. That was something I learned along the way. If ex did not agree then we would have to go through each and every piece of evidence my attorney handed him. I was given 50/50 custody at that time. I went from EOW to 50/50.
As the boys got older exes' alienation tactics backfired on her. Our oldest , S19, now lives with me full time. Our youngest is 14 now and pretty much avoids his mom when he is at her residence. He tells me of her erratic behavior and it doesn't make sense to him so he avoids her. His mom works from noon until 9 pm so he rarely sees her when he is there anyway.

[kells76]

NYF, could you please remind me of your son's age?

If he's young (i.e. not in school w/ homework yet), I wonder if you could still use the structure of David's strategy right now, but with different content -- that is, have a tangible paperwork trail related to doctor appointments, parenting classes, structured playgroups, or something else where you can basically pile it up and say I do 95% of this for/with Son.

[Newyoungfather]

My son is 2. I handle all the medical insurance stuff, take him to doctors appointments and I personally pick him up from daycare.  On the daycare sign in/out sheets I saw she never drops him off or pick him up, it's always her family or "bf". 

[ForeverDad]

My son is 2. I handle all the medical insurance stuff, take him to doctors appointments and I personally pick him up from daycare.  On the daycare sign in/out sheets I saw she never drops him off or pick him up, it's always her family or "bf".

Does she have reason not to pick him up?  Maybe its far away and she has no vehicle?  Maybe she's at work?  Of course that alone doesn't mean she's not parenting but it might help if combined with other information.  If those aren't causes then maybe it would be good to get copies of son's sigh in/out records, just in case it would help in the future.  My daycare had a separate sheet for each child, a simple request if I needed that documentation.  If the kids are mixed together on a sheet then you may not be able to get copies or photos.

[Newyoungfather]

She lives about 15 minutes closer to the daycare than I do and she actually picked the daycare out. 

[david]

Get copies of the sign in sheets. Document everything that you can.
It took me some time but eventually I figured out what the courts in my county looked for and how I needed to present it. My first attorney was horrible and it took me a few years to figure that out. Once I found a good attorney things went better. We worked as a team. By then I also knew what questions to ask, mostly, and knew what my attorney needed. That was a big part of the reason I started "winning" in court. MY new attorney also questioned me about things and we found ways to work together.
I also learned to not argue about what my ex was accusing me of. Instead , I found solutions that I knew the court would like. Ex filed three protection orders against me. The second one I asked the judge to let me pick our boys up at school instead of her place. This way I was nowhere near her. Judge liked the idea and ex agreed even though she didn't like it. The first time I went to pick the boys up I was told by the school that they needed exes' permission first. I handed them a copy of the new order.
This all started in 2007. I am pretty good at anticipating certain things ex will likely do or get triggered by now and that is just time.

[Newyoungfather]

WOW-3 Protection orders, my exPBD only filed one which was shot down by the judge at the actually hearing.  The only thing that I can judge on how she behaves is when she tries to make me jealous by bringing her "boyfriend" to the custody exchanges.

[david]

My county gives them out every Wednesday like they are candy. You file, say you are afraid, and you get an order for a year. If it is serious, actually a real threat, they make it three years. I only had one year orders. I wasn't allowed to follow, stalk , or physically assault her during that time. Since I never did anything close to those things it was quite easy to obey. I just did what I was already doing.
One of my stepsons had a surprise party at his girlfriends when ex started falling apart. She drove there by herself. I was sitting on a sofa with a couple of people and talking. When ex decided to leave she made the rounds. There was a guy that was about 10 feet in front of me. He was extremely drunk and could just about stand. Ex came up to him and planted a big kiss on him. I guess to make me jealous. I am not that kind of person and the way I looked at it he did nothing wrong and my then wife was the one that needed to explain herself. Anyway, she left right after that. I stayed for a while since I was having a pleasant time with everyone. One of the guys there, a friend of my SS, came up to me to apologize for the behavior. I laughed and said I wasn't sure why he was apologizing. He then told me that if it was any consolation to me that the guy ex kissed was gay. I almost wet myself laughing. I couldn't stop for quite some time. I never said anything to ex. I saw no point. Still makes me smile when I think about it though.

[Newyoungfather]

My exBPD attempted to get a PFA against but I challenged it in court and won.  Usually when I win in court my ex will say something like, "your attorney is too harsh on mine" or "it's not fair that your attorney takes advantage of the court order".  For some reason she wants to play nice after she's loses but up until that point she's a very nasty and abusive women.