The expectations for nons are outside the boundaries of any respectable human

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

The expectations from us non BPD’s are frankly far outside the boundaries of any respectable human for the people with BPD .Under no circumstances should anyone be the object of abuse regardless if someone is “sick”.When there is no abuse then I can completely agree with what the admin staff has been saying to most members have empathy and understanding,forgiveness ! But when someone cheats ,leaves a long term marriage with children for someone new ,or destroys endless relationships over and over again... .this is not comparable to normal relationships coming to and end and nor is it comparable to normal people who cheat ,anyone who thinks  otherwise is foolish .

People with borderline personality disorder do not operate outside the spectrum of self awareness,they know exactly what they are doing when they treat people poorly or abusively ,when the cheat and lie ,that much I have learnt during my reading and studying of this cluster B.With that said it is a choice for them and they do it anyways (not all of them !) but many ,those that do this derserve no forgiveness and the best thing one can do is walk away when abuse is present never to return .

[Shawnlam]

The expectations from us non BPD’s are frankly far outside the boundaries of any respectable human for the people with BPD .Under no circumstances should anyone be the object of abuse regardless if someone is “sick”.When there is no abuse then I can completely agree with what the admin staff has been saying to most members have empathy and understanding,forgiveness ! But when someone cheats ,leaves a long term marriage with children for someone new ,or destroys endless relationships over and over again... .this is not comparable to normal relationships coming to and end and nor is it comparable to normal people who cheat ,anyone who thinks  otherwise is foolish .

People with borderline personality disorder do not operate outside the spectrum of self awareness,they know exactly what they are doing when they treat people poorly or abusively ,when the cheat and lie ,that much I have learnt during my reading and studying of this cluster B.With that said it is a choice for them and they do it anyways (not all of them !) but many ,those that do this derserve no forgiveness and the best thing one can do is walk away when abuse is present never to return .

[Cromwell]

That all makes sense, except when people start to come up with their own meanings to define "abuse".

And in the process, obscure what has happened to the "victim", another source for debating semantics rather than addressing the simple fact that stuff that happened was done with ill-intent, regardless of the impulsivity, and therefore created a victim and at the same time fulfilled the defintion of abuse as;

 v.
To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.

So as far as the definitions go, I consider I was abused in the r/s. The reasons for it have never been openly discussed.

Why did I not just walk away, never to return. I did eventually, there are many reasons that a victim doesnt speak out or carries on. My reason was forming such a deep emotional attachment as well as not accepting at the time that it was intentional abuse. I see it for it is after the event. It came out of nowhere and as a complete shock that I dont think I let it fully register at the time.

It is difficult to walk away when there was a clear side of the r/s that you feel attachment to the other, value their good qualities. It wasnt also easy for me to simply walk away, I had been destined to be "together forever", how good a source of supply I was, the stalking during and after the r/s highlighting that I was too good a victim to let go easily.

I fully agree with you that there can be a misappropiation of the word "illness" with regards to personality disorder, to give an impression that the person may not be fully cognisant of what they are doing and therefore can be excused for their actions. At the same time I dont seek to downplay that one of the traits identified is "impulsivity".

As for forgiveness, in order to forgive she would have had to have had some sort of idea of the harm that she caused, that would require empathy. Whilst she will have intended to wage some level of hurt in her intentional actions, I dont believe she will ever comprehend just how deeply hurtful any of it really was. The only time I realised her capacity to empathise with hurt was when it came to herself.

If you have an iota of self respect, you dont allow yourself to be treated that way by anyone, regardless of their condition. Im not saying the whole r/s was characterised by abusive behaviour, it wasnt by far, and that is why I stayed, I thought eventually I could forgive what happened, or that could surmount it, despite my own moral compass being very much against what she did, I tried everything I could to resolve it all amicably. The appeasement just encouraged worse to come.

[Shawnlam]

I agree with you on all your points however I tend to believe unlike a narcissist,borderlines do have some forms of empathy at certain times.They even have a tendency to warn us that their impulses are about to blow like a kettle .I myself was witness many times when my ex would literally warn me by stating such things like “I’ll never hurt,cheat or disappoint you on purpose”.Then instantly do so and cry like a child when I called her out.All in all abuse is purely unacceptable in any relationship regardless of being ill.Because my story was not as bad as most on here (I got away with only heart ache ,confidence and self esteem issue) ,I forgave her and myself for what happened .

I also tend to believe that at the beginning of the relationship we are used as a new toy , but in their minds it’s love (their version).We as normal people just fall into the trap because frankly we never knew it was a trap in the first place .They should teach people in school the dangers of cluster B personality disorders but it seems society prefers to label and shelf these issues.We will never be able to stop poor parenting,abuse , but we can help the aftermath once it happens.Love is a brutal emotional/chemical drug that humans go through life trying to get their fix .I don’t believe anyone should be ashamed of having fallen in love with their partners who have BPD.I also don’t think we need to feel ashamed for having a hard time letting go either, these are human beings after all .We all have our classifications for them now that’s it’s over some flattering and some not so much .

I foreone came out of this a smarter man with a huge permanent injury.An injury that time will not heal nor education or the nice respectful,respectable people here can fix.So much so I saw it today when I met ___ in person today at a restaurant we both go to .I can lie and say I felt nothing but I felt everything rushing back ,even more when she came to me and we amicably kissed and said hi.Today I realized this type of damage can’t be repaired , but in my own way I believe this wound needs to fester at the right times .This pain I felt today will always remind me of the numerous lessons I’ve learnt in the last 8 months .No other human being will be allowed to get close to my heart like she did (and still does),yes she still controls me that deep.I can say this now without shame because I never knew what was happening when it did .This doesn’t make me a fool ,or stupid,or blind , it makes me a human being that’s not broken ( or wasn’t at the time).

I often spend much time by myself now , I look at the world as a much different place than I did before.Its like I’m watching a movie of myself now when I interact with anyone female/male/child.Im emotionally colder(not savage or anger ) just more robotic/neutral.Ive taken life as a large test,I don’t think I failed the one I was just put through I think I had to embrace two ways of taking this ending ... .1: resentful,anger,vengeance. Or 2: compassion,love and a huge required change in myself good or bad who is qualified to judge me ? Some would say becoming more robotic is a curse or a bad turn , but is it really? Is being more aware of the dangers of revealing our inner self to someone who exploits this really a bad turn? I won’t swallow the red pill thinking and shut out everyone that can be a potential partner due to machoism or some preferred male play book ,but I won’t try to be Prince Charming anymore either .

There are a lot of people on here I’d have a beer with any day I think we all share a connection.I also took away positive things from everyone who commented on my posts good or bad it all played it’s part with me (yes even you skip,probably helped me the most even though we butt heads now and then).

You know what’s the one wrong thing we all do when we fall in love? WE EXPECT and it just ruins everything.

[Cromwell]

Shawnlam, thats really interesting when you say there was some forewarning that you got. I do realise I got the same, but I look at it a little bit differently than to say that this was done to protect us.

I see it as a pre-set way of alleviating their guilt for intending to go through with the act they know is wrong, it takes away a lot of the guilt because they feel they can say that they gave (some sort of) forewarning of it to us. Yet, go on and do it anyway all the same.

Sorry Shawnlam but I did tell you that I was in "BPD" mode, I didnt do it on purpose.

Its a bit like the excuse young children use when they do something they know is wrong but say instead "i didnt mean to, it was an accident!".

because they learned that "accidents" are a way of being absolved of any wrong doing.

[Shawnlam]

It’s an interesting point crom and honestly your opinion holds a valid point when in comes to alleviating guilt.I always thought her warning me was to protect me but I can surly see what you mean especially when you equate it to a child acting out then saying I’m sorry.I think I’ll review my opinion on why she did those warnings to me ... .I enjoy our talks here you bring light to ideas I never thought about .

[rj47]

This pain I felt today will always remind me of the numerous lessons I’ve learnt in the last 8 months .No other human being will be allowed to get close to my heart like she did (and still does),yes she still controls me that deep.I can say this now without shame because I never knew what was happening when it did .This doesn’t make me a fool ,or stupid,or blind , it makes me a human being that’s not broken ( or wasn’t at the time).

I felt the same for a long time. Began to let go of the anger with the gradual and painful realization that I always had a choice. She couldn't control her behavior or begin to help herself. And, I chose to stay for decades trying to be a better man thinking she would eventually recognize it, soften and accept me. My choice. I realized that I was probably more screwed up than her for thinking I could fix it.

I allowed her to train me well (again, my choice). I was determined to never let anyone crack my heart open and shred it without mercy again. But someone did break through to my insides. Surgically opened me up before I realized what was happening and gently helped me to trust again. I still want to be a better man; but for very different reasons with someone who already thinks I'm the best there is. Hard training becomes habit. I don't mind. Maybe I should thank her for that.

You think she took something from you that I suspect is still there.

[Shawnlam]

I felt the same for a long time. Began to let go of the anger with the gradual and painful realization that I always had a choice. She couldn't control her behavior or begin to help herself. And, I chose to stay for decades trying to be a better man thinking she would eventually recognize it, soften and accept me. My choice. I realized that I was probably more screwed up than her for thinking I could fix it.

I allowed her to train me well (again, my choice). I was determined to never let anyone crack my heart open and shred it without mercy again. But someone did break through to my insides. Surgically opened me up before I realized what was happening and gently helped me to trust again. I still want to be a better man; but for very different reasons with someone who already thinks I'm the best there is. Hard training becomes habit. I don't mind. Maybe I should thank her for that.

You think she took something from you that I suspect is still there.

I’d like to think that is possible but I’m afraid I just don’t want to open up like that again.Yes I let it happen and yes it was a mistake but honestly I think I can survive on surface love versus profound deep love that I have to my ex.It was too much to be honest and I gave enough in the last months to last a lifetime as far as I’m concerned.

[Wicker Man]

I also tend to believe that at the beginning of the relationship we are used as a new toy , but in their minds it’s love (their version).We as normal people just fall into the trap because frankly we never knew it was a trap in the first place.

In my experience which is an anecdotal sample of one (very scientific... .) from the perspective of someone with no mental health care training (very professional... .) 'trap' is perhaps the wrong word.  If we were to use the word 'trap' then we both fell into a trap.  We fell deeply in love. 

Perhaps we were experiencing that love differently, but there was love and a lot of it.  For me her love made me feel accepted, adored, and frankly put wonderful about myself.  For her, at least in the beginning my love made her feel safe and accepted.  She began her first rages when she found out some things about my past relationships which didn't fit her 'ideal' image of me.  Rage and anger are usually precipitated by fear.  My not being perfect made her afraid, caused cognitive dissonance.  If what I have read is true about BPD, people suffering from this disorder have arrested emotional development.  In other words they lack the tools to process the stress brought on when their 'knight in shining armor' is not absolutely ideal -it makes them confused and frightened ---> rage.   

They should teach people in school the dangers of cluster B personality disorders but it seems society prefers to label and shelf these issues.We will never be able to stop poor parenting,abuse , but we can help the aftermath once it happens.

I agree developmental psychology should be at least addressed in school if not studied, but then again we should also teach children an additional language, basic geography, nutrition, and how to balance a checkbook. 

Love is a brutal emotional/chemical drug that humans go through life trying to get their fix. 

I think here limerence fits better.  Limerence: a state of mind resulting from romantic attraction, characterized by feelings of euphoria, the desire to have one's feelings reciprocated, etc

Limerence is the 6 month to 18 month chemical rush one feels in a new relationship.

I found this quote about Limerence on Limerence.net:
"People who do may experience it only once and then move onto a healthy relationship, or may fall into a lifelong pattern of obsessive relationships. Like drug addicts, some chase that lovesick feeling at the expense of their careers, families and health. Those who cannot let go of the intensity and euphoria of romantic love may be struggling with relationship, romance or love addiction. Behaviors may become dangerous, such as stalking or unwanted contact, and require outpatient or residential love addiction treatment, professional counseling "

So far I have not seen anything about the relationship between people suffering from BPD and chronic limerence, but from my experience my BPD lover perhaps needs this rush.  There is an enormous surge of dopamine when in a state of limerence.  --I feel my BPD ex smokes partially in an attempt to self medicate and regulate her dopamine level.

I don’t believe anyone should be ashamed of having fallen in love with their partners who have BPD.  I also don’t think we need to feel ashamed for having a hard time letting go either, these are human beings after all.

There is no shame in trusting someone and falling in love.  If love were easy and straight forward the divorce rate would not be over 50%.  I agree with your previous point -it would be wonderful if there was some way to teach people to be better prepared for relationships, but we don't.  We fumble around in the dark looking for love and a lasting healthy relationship -often to our peril.

Maybe have a look at the book Is it Love or is it Addiction.  It may help you with future relationships.

I foreone came out of this a smarter man with a huge permanent injury.An injury that time will not heal nor education or the nice respectful,respectable people here can fix.

In my initial thread I wrote something to the effect 'scars with will never heal'.  I was in quite a bit of disrepair.  It is going to take some time and a lot of therapy to reconcile my relationship with my undiagnosed BPD lover, but time will heal.  I honestly don't know what I learned from the experience... .  Ok... .I have learned more than I ever wanted to know about B cluster disorders and more specifically about Border Line (PD) -but as far as a life lesson?  I am still not sure.

No other human being will be allowed to get close to my heart like she did.

Hopefully, you will find, in time, this resolve to never be truly intimate with another human being will fade.  Trust is hard to recover once lost. 

The 5 stages of grief are necessary for healing: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance.  For me they come out of order and I bounce around a bit, but they are the way through this. 

Acceptance, I liken to enlightenment and I look forward to having this one day.


Wicker Man