Setting Boundaries - issues / help?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

In my previous post I mentioned issues in the past with setting up or successfully using boundaries in my relationships. With on and off therapy over the last decade I have been encouraged to setup healthy boundaries for my interactions initially with my direct family (Mother, Father and siblings) and later in my marriage.

Family Boundaries
I have a very neurotic, anxiety ridden, over bearing mother and have struggled with controlling the impact our relationship had not only on me but on my relationships with other family members. Basically lots of passive aggressive behaviour and insults, undermining, and controlling of information to other family members. My mother was extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with the person I chose to marry and basically has undermined our relationship and interactions for years and years, ignoring any positives, only focusing on negatives and spreading gossip between family members.

Initially my boundaries started small:
 - When they visited my house make it clear they cant just wander and look in different rooms "just to check". A visit from my parents was like a visit from the landlord, thin lipped scanning of everything looking for any little negative. When I made it clear its not appropriate to wander around in someones house looking through spare rooms just to see the state they are in, they just stopped coming over.
- Limiting information to positives. This was suggested by a former psychologist of reframing communications and build up positive information which should over time build a positive view in their head. And oh my god this was really bad. I would call up and tell them one of their grandchildren just got an A on an exam and was really proud, her response would be "silly girl, if she just applied herself then she should get them all the time". Thats just one example but she can pretty much pull negativity out of anything and project it back on me. If I told them I was thrilled I had a new job and my wife just got admitted into Law School the response from "other" family members who I had not talked to would be "so we heard your wife isnt working, and you had to find a new job?"
- Limiting visits to special occasions. Family gatherings got to the point where there was at least one on twice a month, usually for no reason whatsoever and any absences are ALWAYS noted. The usual comments of "oh we havent seen you for so long, nice to see you turn up to see your family" when it was like 3 weeks ago I saw them last".

Basically the gist of the result of the above boundaries was rejection or complete disdain for them. Like how dare I control what they see, think say or hear about me? And I cant in truth, but I wanted to have some control on the parameters of the relationship and reframing how things are viewed. My parents only got worse with teh negative, undermining cliquey behaviour which has resulted in me being completely unable to speak to them anymore. I cant even have a conversation wtih them and feel like I am treated like those other human beings, but I am no longer part of the inner circle so any attempts to set boundaries or have an arms length relationship were completely sabotaged.

I have tried a number of boundaries in my relationship with my pwBPD wife, however these were a lot less speific than the ones above. But I have no confidence in my ability to no only maintain boundaries, but maintain healthy ones. I really think the boundaries I have already in place are unhealthy to a degree but I fear lifting them with my family. After going NC with all my brothers/sisters/parents/cousins etc I feel more alone than ever but I cant bring myself to have a relationship with them again.

What boundaries have worked for others, with BPD partners or family members? And why / how did they work?

My personal experience with relationship boundaries / limits has mostly been not only resistant but actively opposing it. Like the behaviours that I was trying to be limit or impact of those reduced, ended up being far worse than better for me.

[BurntOutFromBPD]

In my previous post I mentioned issues in the past with setting up or successfully using boundaries in my relationships. With on and off therapy over the last decade I have been encouraged to setup healthy boundaries for my interactions initially with my direct family (Mother, Father and siblings) and later in my marriage.

Family Boundaries
I have a very neurotic, anxiety ridden, over bearing mother and have struggled with controlling the impact our relationship had not only on me but on my relationships with other family members. Basically lots of passive aggressive behaviour and insults, undermining, and controlling of information to other family members. My mother was extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with the person I chose to marry and basically has undermined our relationship and interactions for years and years, ignoring any positives, only focusing on negatives and spreading gossip between family members.

Initially my boundaries started small:
 - When they visited my house make it clear they cant just wander and look in different rooms "just to check". A visit from my parents was like a visit from the landlord, thin lipped scanning of everything looking for any little negative. When I made it clear its not appropriate to wander around in someones house looking through spare rooms just to see the state they are in, they just stopped coming over.
- Limiting information to positives. This was suggested by a former psychologist of reframing communications and build up positive information which should over time build a positive view in their head. And oh my god this was really bad. I would call up and tell them one of their grandchildren just got an A on an exam and was really proud, her response would be "silly girl, if she just applied herself then she should get them all the time". Thats just one example but she can pretty much pull negativity out of anything and project it back on me. If I told them I was thrilled I had a new job and my wife just got admitted into Law School the response from "other" family members who I had not talked to would be "so we heard your wife isnt working, and you had to find a new job?"
- Limiting visits to special occasions. Family gatherings got to the point where there was at least one on twice a month, usually for no reason whatsoever and any absences are ALWAYS noted. The usual comments of "oh we havent seen you for so long, nice to see you turn up to see your family" when it was like 3 weeks ago I saw them last".

Basically the gist of the result of the above boundaries was rejection or complete disdain for them. Like how dare I control what they see, think say or hear about me? And I cant in truth, but I wanted to have some control on the parameters of the relationship and reframing how things are viewed. My parents only got worse with teh negative, undermining cliquey behaviour which has resulted in me being completely unable to speak to them anymore. I cant even have a conversation wtih them and feel like I am treated like those other human beings, but I am no longer part of the inner circle so any attempts to set boundaries or have an arms length relationship were completely sabotaged.

I have tried a number of boundaries in my relationship with my pwBPD wife, however these were a lot less speific than the ones above. But I have no confidence in my ability to no only maintain boundaries, but maintain healthy ones. I really think the boundaries I have already in place are unhealthy to a degree but I fear lifting them with my family. After going NC with all my brothers/sisters/parents/cousins etc I feel more alone than ever but I cant bring myself to have a relationship with them again.

What boundaries have worked for others, with BPD partners or family members? And why / how did they work?

My personal experience with relationship boundaries / limits has mostly been not only resistant but actively opposing it. Like the behaviours that I was trying to be limit or impact of those reduced, ended up being far worse than better for me.

[pearlsw]

What boundaries have worked for others, with BPD partners or family members? And why / how did they work?

My personal experience with relationship boundaries / limits has mostly been not only resistant but actively opposing it. Like the behaviours that I was trying to be limit or impact of those reduced, ended up being far worse than better for me.

Hi BurntOutFromBPD,

Thanks for posting this. I wanted to drop in these links for others who are interested in working on these issues:

Boundaries and Values

Boundaries and Examples

This definition comes from the first link:

"Boundaries are how we define our values to others.  A boundary is nothing more than the outer perimeters of our independent core values -  it's like a fence  - anything inside the boundary is consistent with our core values and anything outside the boundary is not.  For example, if your independent core value is "always to be respectful of others" a boundary question might be "would abruptly walking out of the room when someone says something offensive be inside or outside of your definition of this value?"  It's not always obvious - we all see things differently.  As you can quickly see, with values, we have a significant responsibility to lead, educate and inform others - we must walk the walk, have effective communication and be consistent."

I'm really interested in this topic myself because I'd like to have clear boundaries for when my SO's kids visit us. I'm not exactly sure where to start either! I would also like to see other's examples as you've asked for!

with compassion, pearl.

[formflier]

Like how dare I control what they see, think say or hear about me?

 

What boundaries have worked for others, with BPD partners or family members? And why / how did they work?

My personal experience with relationship boundaries / limits has mostly been not only resistant but actively opposing it. Like the behaviours that I was trying to be limit or impact of those reduced, ended up being far worse than better for me.

Please spend time in the links that Pearlsw provided

Listen... your family's reaction to boundaries really doesn't matter... .they don't control your boundaries.  They can be happy... .they can flip out... .they can (fill in the blank)

Your boundary with them snooping worked... .right?

They want to come over and snoop.  You didn't want that.  They don't come over and snoop.  Victory... right?  What did I miss there.

Listen... if you want them to come over and not snoop... .that's not a choice you can make... .you don't control them.  They apparently decided if you were not going to allow them to come over and snoop... they would not come over at all.

Guess what... boundaries work both ways.  They control their snooping and visiting.  They apparently have values along the lines of "we have a right to snoop... .those values are so important to us... .we won't visit people that limit our snooping."

That's their right to express their values and decide not to visit... you don't get a vote.  (do you see that?)

For the backhanded PA comments about grades... "Listen Mom... .we are proud of our child.  We'll continue to share news if you are able to celebrate with us.  If you continue to be critical when we share news, we'll stop sharing news.  Of course I'll respect whichever decision you make."

Done... end of story.

If they badger you about it... leave.

Done... .end of story. (keep repeating that part in your head)

Boundaries are not about controlling another person.  They are about you and your values.  In your situation, you have "difficult" family... .so you are limiting your exposure/damage from them.

They can like it... or not.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

BurntOut (love your name BTW... .I like how many of us have similar themes in our handles):

Definitely read the links pearl included.

A word of advice: it is not always easy to set boundaries; it IS easy however to forget that they're not about controlling other people, but setting rules for yourself to follow if/when people violate your own boundaries.  I make this mistake all the time.

I find I need to not only set the boundary (for example: "I will not tolerate wife baselessly accusing me of infidelity", but think through how I will enforce this boundary when she inevitably violates it.  And they WILL violate it.

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you trying to set boundaries with BPD family members. I too have several family members with BPD, and I have tried to set boundaries with them, which they pretty much ignore. I too feel very alone because my family will not respect the boundaries I set. Do not blame yourself for not being able to enforce boundaries when you are with people who are determined they are going to have things their way all the time regardless what you tell them. For me, it seems the more boundaries I have set, the more my family has escalated their war on me. So, please do not feel that you are in some way at fault if the boundaries do not seem to work. I am finding that it works to set boundaries with healthier people first, and then to see that setting boundaries is not that hard with people who can do reciprocal caring communication. Practicing setting boundaries with people that will respect the boundaries can build your self confidence and make it someone easier to set boundaries with family members and to not take it personally when the boundaries are disrespected. All you can do is do the best you can in setting boundaries with BPD people. Keep us posted and do let us know how you are doing. We are all struggling to some degree in setting boundaries with BPD people and are learning from each other.

[Red5]

Afternoon BurntOutFromBPD

What boundaries have worked for others, with BPD partners or family members? And why / how did they work?

My personal experience with relationship boundaries / limits has mostly been not only resistant but actively opposing it. Like the behaviors that I was trying to be limit or impact of those reduced, ended up being far worse than better for me.

What do boundaries mean to me, the term “boundaries”:
* Boundaries are invisible psychological barriers, ie’ KLINGONS!… shields up Mr. Sulu!
* Boundaries are like stone walls surrounding a castle, or redoubt.
* Boundaries are unsaid rules in a relationship, ie’ no adultery or lese, no lying or else, no physical violence or else, no personal defamation, degradation, assassination or else… etc’ etc’ etc’.
* Boundaries are like computer software, they can be updated, and or deleted.
* Boundaries are meant to be attacked, scaled, bombarded, and or breached.
* Boundaries are meant to keep an undesirable element and or behavior out; “at bay”, or an element in (contained)?
* Boundaries, is a negative term, a sign things are not on the zero line of “normal” (trust).
* Boundaries require constant care, maintenance, and ‘attentive’ attention to even be effective.
* Boundaries are in this case; a silent warning, an invisible warning to outliers?
* Boundaries in a close, one on one romantic relationship should be temporary in nature?
* Boundaries are the last defense initiative before a verbal, psychological; or physical altercation.

My personal experience with “personal boundaries” within a marriage, sibling, parental (mum & pop), foo/family relationship, is that that said and set boundary is at first dismissed, disregarded; then overrun, and then reinstated, and then enforced, thus and quickly becoming a point of contention, in the suspect relationship.

What do I hear?
*I am your “mom” .
*I am your “dad” .
*I am your “wife” .
*But… But I just WANTED YOU to ____ .
*YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO ME !
*Why are you being so stubborn .
*Why are being such a A$$ Whole .
*Well… BE THAT WAY THEN !

Boundaries will help you keep your cool (?),

W- “I DO NOT like the contrary, and rude way you spoke to me last night”,

Red5- “I am not going to have this conversation with you at this time, it will turn into a pointless and circular argument yet again, just as it did last evening.”

W- “EXCUSE ME, BUT %$# ! YOU Red5 !”

Red5- “I am going to the hardware store, call me if you need anything,”

(Later while driving to hardware store)

W/cell- ring ring ring, ~> Red5

Red5/cell- Hello,

W/cell- You You You You #%@& !

Red5/cell- If you are going to do this, I will have to “power down”…

W/cell- “click”… dail tone (the hang up game),

Red5/cell  – (from W/cell) text text text, missed call - missed call - missed call… text text text…

*See*, a boundary (in action), boundary employed; set, then attacked, an attempted breach, then the retreat, reinstate boundary, attacked again;… hold boundary.

Conflagration ensues… fun times,

Part and parcel,

Red5