handling parental alienation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have been doing my best over the years to deal with my ex's alienation behaviors and brain-washing of my kids.

In studying this i have learned what happens and true to form my 17yo son is distorting the truth and taking in the alleged lies that have been told about me.  I say, "alleged" because i know we can typically not prove (unless Alexa can be called as a witness?) but my kids reflect back things that only they could get from adults who are manipulating against someone else.  Kids in my experience are like sponges for this type of information. 

so two weeks ago, i announced to my kids that i would be in town to see them.  I live out of state and travel extensively for work right now.  However, i do give them notice when i'm coming into town etc.  my youngest daughter is still interested in seeing me but my 17 yo started having huge resentment against me last year.   

Tonight i sent him a message saying that i  was in town and would like to see him so please tell me your schedule.   He replied with schedule which he stated was completely filled.  I was frustrated but typically don't verbalize this to him because it doesn't work.  He uses my feelings against me so I have learned to abstain.  However, the worst thing that could happen, happened.  I went to send a message to my friend to vent to her about this happening and my phone (and i don't know how this happened) started to power down but sent the message to my son instead of my friend.  I was in shock when i turned my phone back on and saw this.  I still don't know how it happened.  So my son fired back a message to me that was of course out of frustration.  I had said in the message to my friend (that went to him) that my son was too busy to see me and i guess he feels powerful or standing in his power by rejecting me.  So he responded that he wasn't rejecting me and that he was just busy and then the distortions started.  He distorted the facts about me coming to town.  Even though we had talked two weeks ago and i told him i would be in town.  Tonight he told me that i decide to come into town without giving any notice during his finals week.  I responded by telling him that i was hurt because i want to connect with him and see him but that he pushes me away and i was just venting to a friend.  However, i was glad it came out in the open.   His response to me was that i was trying to be the psychologist instead of his dad.  He went on to say that in x amount of years i have never come to his band concerts etc.  And that i come into town and want to see his sister but not him.

So what am i supposed to say to this?  he is distorting the facts.  i have spoken with him about his concerts and asked when they were.  he would tell me he didn't know and to ask his mother.  She is supposed to give me the schedule for things but doesn't.  She is manipulating her own sons emotions and using him as a pawn to hurt me.
I think that she has lied to him and telling him that she told me which is totally false.  But when i have known and couldn't come i would tell him and he would say, "it's okay dad, it's really not that big of a deal."  Now all of a sudden he is making a big deal about it.  Again, i feel she is manipulating him against me. 

I was going to answer tonight but was too upset.  I know if i defend myself that he will use that against me and yet he won't tell me what he wants until later and uses it against me.  He has learned passive aggressive behavior from his mom.  I'm feeling bad on one hand that he got that message but a friend of mine thinks its great that it has come out in the open.  I am not glad but think it is healthy that he is sharing his emotions but my concern is that they are so distorted because of his mom. 

I am confused as to what i should say back and really didn't want to go back and forth through text but he doesn't give me the opportunity to talk about it.  I have dealt with this with my oldest daughter as well.  She finally got old enough to speak her mind but the thoughts she was speaking were based on lies and distortions.

Any tips from anyone who has gone through this would be helpful.  Thanks.

[truthbeknown]

I have been doing my best over the years to deal with my ex's alienation behaviors and brain-washing of my kids.

In studying this i have learned what happens and true to form my 17yo son is distorting the truth and taking in the alleged lies that have been told about me.  I say, "alleged" because i know we can typically not prove (unless Alexa can be called as a witness?) but my kids reflect back things that only they could get from adults who are manipulating against someone else.  Kids in my experience are like sponges for this type of information. 

so two weeks ago, i announced to my kids that i would be in town to see them.  I live out of state and travel extensively for work right now.  However, i do give them notice when i'm coming into town etc.  my youngest daughter is still interested in seeing me but my 17 yo started having huge resentment against me last year.   

Tonight i sent him a message saying that i  was in town and would like to see him so please tell me your schedule.   He replied with schedule which he stated was completely filled.  I was frustrated but typically don't verbalize this to him because it doesn't work.  He uses my feelings against me so I have learned to abstain.  However, the worst thing that could happen, happened.  I went to send a message to my friend to vent to her about this happening and my phone (and i don't know how this happened) started to power down but sent the message to my son instead of my friend.  I was in shock when i turned my phone back on and saw this.  I still don't know how it happened.  So my son fired back a message to me that was of course out of frustration.  I had said in the message to my friend (that went to him) that my son was too busy to see me and i guess he feels powerful or standing in his power by rejecting me.  So he responded that he wasn't rejecting me and that he was just busy and then the distortions started.  He distorted the facts about me coming to town.  Even though we had talked two weeks ago and i told him i would be in town.  Tonight he told me that i decide to come into town without giving any notice during his finals week.  I responded by telling him that i was hurt because i want to connect with him and see him but that he pushes me away and i was just venting to a friend.  However, i was glad it came out in the open.   His response to me was that i was trying to be the psychologist instead of his dad.  He went on to say that in x amount of years i have never come to his band concerts etc.  And that i come into town and want to see his sister but not him.

So what am i supposed to say to this?  he is distorting the facts.  i have spoken with him about his concerts and asked when they were.  he would tell me he didn't know and to ask his mother.  She is supposed to give me the schedule for things but doesn't.  She is manipulating her own sons emotions and using him as a pawn to hurt me.
I think that she has lied to him and telling him that she told me which is totally false.  But when i have known and couldn't come i would tell him and he would say, "it's okay dad, it's really not that big of a deal."  Now all of a sudden he is making a big deal about it.  Again, i feel she is manipulating him against me. 

I was going to answer tonight but was too upset.  I know if i defend myself that he will use that against me and yet he won't tell me what he wants until later and uses it against me.  He has learned passive aggressive behavior from his mom.  I'm feeling bad on one hand that he got that message but a friend of mine thinks its great that it has come out in the open.  I am not glad but think it is healthy that he is sharing his emotions but my concern is that they are so distorted because of his mom. 

I am confused as to what i should say back and really didn't want to go back and forth through text but he doesn't give me the opportunity to talk about it.  I have dealt with this with my oldest daughter as well.  She finally got old enough to speak her mind but the thoughts she was speaking were based on lies and distortions.

Any tips from anyone who has gone through this would be helpful.  Thanks.

[Panda39]

Hi truthbeknown,

I wanted to share this from the tools/workshops board, information on parental alienation... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=104479.0

Also, information on raising resilient kids (validation... .validating questions)... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

My SO also had to deal with parental alienation at it's worst during his separation.  What helped him was more time with his daughters (he went from dinner one night a week/every other weekend to majority custody), consistency... .he called them like clockwork and showed up for visitation like clockwork (this didn't mean his kids always saw him or they talked to him - but he showed them that he desired to see them), he continued to be himself and treat his girls like he always had (even though they had gone through his whole apartment and reported it's contents to their mother, went through his phone/texts and reported them to their mother, and participated in false allegations of abuse), he got a Therapist that helped him negotiate the situation, and his ex shot herself in the foot so to speak and failed their daughters.

Rather than focusing on what your ex is doing... .she's gonna do what she's gonna do... .focus on what you can do (because we can only control our own actions).

Is there anyway for you to be more consistently available to your son?  It sounds like travel makes this difficult. Could you spend part of your time in town with him alone?  Do you have a Therapist?  Might be worth it to get one to help sort this stuff out. 

Ask your son validating questions... .son I love you, you are important to me, what do you think we could do to make things better between us?  What do you need from me? etc... .  It took time to get your son where he is and it will take time to change things.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Truthbeknown, I'm just commenting because I must follow this thread.  I'm still married and living with my wife (though separate bedrooms), but now I look back over the years, and I can see an unintentional but systematic process of brainwashing my wife has done with my kids.   Unfortunately the older ones have heard her blame, manipulations, distortions, rages, and they believe mom.  My D17, who still lives with us, hasn't spoken to me in about a year, she's answered about three text messages, refuses to be on the same floor of the house with me, won't accept rides or phone calls form me.  She shivers if she catches sight of me, she used to hide under a blanket and crawl out of the room when she came to dinner (yes, at age 17). I say used to, since she no longer comes to family meals.  I saw a picture of her, and realized I hadn't seen her new glasses - from about a year an a half ago - though she wears them everyday.  So, I can sympathize with the pain you must be feeling.  
I think that being told by mom that dad is mad, wrong, bad, ... .whatever, for so long really sinks in. She used to be daddy's girl too.  
I know teenager years are tough for even a normal, adjusted kid. I can only imagine that the chaos of teen years, plus malign influences from a disregulated parent, must be horrible for a teen to endure.
For what it's worth, I have heard several people say that as kids grow through the manipulation and leave home to run their own lives, many can snap back and see crazy for what it is.  I hope we can get to that stage.
Personally, I have to have ways to manage feeling angry at the harsh treatment.  I have a low-grade anger towards my wife for leading to this alienation on a fairly regular basis.  But, I'm ashamed to say that I sometimes also feel mad at D17 for treating me like she does too.  I've just had too much verbal and emotional abuse already in my 20 year marriage and I'm committed to not enduring any more abuse.  But, I can't get angry, or move out on  my D17.  I can't stand silent treatment any more, and being treating like my D17 treats me is beyond description.
I've taken a sort of Zen approach and let things go, since I didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it.  I also talk to God a lot.  I don't know if contacting a higher power works for you or not, but, sometimes higher powers are the only ones who will hear you out.  

I'm following this thread.

edit / addendum: I applaud you for waiting to respond when you sense you're upset.  I normally have a head-on approach to challenges and problems, and I want to respond often when I sense I'm being mistreated, but, when I let it go and think, I make better responses and behavior, usually.  And if my reactions are still correct, they sure sound more rational and composed if I wait a day to deliver them.

[truthbeknown]

Truthbeknown, I'm just commenting because I must follow this thread.  I'm still married and living with my wife (though separate bedrooms), but now I look back over the years, and I can see an unintentional but systematic process of brainwashing my wife has done with my kids.   Unfortunately the older ones have heard her blame, manipulations, distortions, rages, and they believe mom.  My D17, who still lives with us, hasn't spoken to me in about a year, she's answered about three text messages, refuses to be on the same floor of the house with me, won't accept rides or phone calls form me.  She shivers if she catches sight of me, she used to hide under a blanket and crawl out of the room when she came to dinner (yes, at age 17). I say used to, since she no longer comes to family meals.  I saw a picture of her, and realized I hadn't seen her new glasses - from about a year an a half ago - though she wears them everyday.  So, I can sympathize with the pain you must be feeling.  
I think that being told by mom that dad is mad, wrong, bad, ... .whatever, for so long really sinks in. She used to be daddy's girl too.  
I know teenager years are tough for even a normal, adjusted kid. I can only imagine that the chaos of teen years, plus malign influences from a disregulated parent, must be horrible for a teen to endure.
For what it's worth, I have heard several people say that as kids grow through the manipulation and leave home to run their own lives, many can snap back and see crazy for what it is.  I hope we can get to that stage.
Personally, I have to have ways to manage feeling angry at the harsh treatment.  I have a low-grade anger towards my wife for leading to this alienation on a fairly regular basis.  But, I'm ashamed to say that I sometimes also feel mad at D17 for treating me like she does too.  I've just had too much verbal and emotional abuse already in my 20 year marriage and I'm committed to not enduring any more abuse.  But, I can't get angry, or move out on  my D17.  I can't stand silent treatment any more, and being treating like my D17 treats me is beyond description.
I've taken a sort of Zen approach and let things go, since I didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it.  I also talk to God a lot.  I don't know if contacting a higher power works for you or not, but, sometimes higher powers are the only ones who will hear you out.  

I'm following this thread.

edit / addendum: I applaud you for waiting to respond when you sense you're upset.  I normally have a head-on approach to challenges and problems, and I want to respond often when I sense I'm being mistreated, but, when I let it go and think, I make better responses and behavior, usually.  And if my reactions are still correct, they sure sound more rational and composed if I wait a day to deliver them.

Samwise:  i'm so sorry you are dealing with this.  I have a friend who hasn't spoken to her daughters in 5 years so i should feel lucky but i'm sickened by what society has become and how so many personality disordered people are running the show.  It makes me feel like we're in zombie apocolypse.  I do have a spiritual belief and i do pray but my human side weighs heavy on this mostly because i'm sad.  I have not been lucky career wise and have had to bounce around a bit.  I had a house that i was renting 5 years ago and then i got very sick from mold exposure. That led me to need to move in with a friend two states away from my kids.  Things seem almost better for awhile being a "disney land dad" but now my son throws up things that happened 3 years ago that i believe are being prompted by his mom.   So i am trying to get a license back that would give me more choices but i don't know if i can tolerate living in the same state as my ex anymore?  It seems to be harder on the kids and the state i live in doesn't believe in parental alienation (most corrupt state in the country i think).  So it is an uphill battle.  And i'm tired and my health has suffered because of all the stress.  My 27yo daughter is now communicating with me a little more and 3 years ago she said some pretty nasty things about me.  All my friends and everyone i meet thinks I'm a great person, kind, loving etc but to be painted as the enemy with your own kids (as you know) is very difficult. 

I think i might be too sensitive of a person to deal with this?  I just want peace and of course some order but there is not too much of that with a co-parent who wants to destroy you vs help co parent.

[livednlearned]

Hi truthbeknown,

I hope you forgive yourself for the stray text sent to your son. These things happen. Living with someone who is BPD can make you feel that there is no room for error, when of course there is plenty of room to be human.

You also deserve to express your frustration to your support circle.

It is equal parts frightening and painful to feel we are losing our kids to what amounts to a foggy, vague battle. I have never felt so helpless than I did when confronting alienation tactics, watching them take root in my son and destroying not only his soul, but our relationship, too.

I know it is different for everyone... .parental alienation is insidious and there are conditions over which we have little to no control so there's no silver bullet. And I know that the BPD person's behavior is often worse by any measure. But for me, the turning point happened when I focused on my behavior because it was the only thing over which I had control.

It took me a lot of therapy to get my head there.

You can only control how you interact with your son.

I think our kids largely have no concept of family life that doesn't involve dysfunction and triangulation. They need to learn (slowly) that there is an alternative, but it won't happen in one or two conversations.

My T would describe your son's behavior as attempting to erase you, which is something people do when they feel erased. The key is to then let them feel seen, which is not so easy to do when we are fighting to be seen at the same time.

Part of what I had to learn was to stop trying to get my needs met at the same time my son was trying to get his met. I had to get mine met in therapy, too. It wasn't working to try and get my son to see things the way I saw them.

For your son, the way he sees it, you did not attend his band concerts, a painful feeling for him. Sometimes we have to tend to the feelings first before we can address the distortions. It had to feel painful for him to not have you at his concerts. He wishes you had been there and he's hurt and sad, and time has turned that hurt into anger. He has found that his only skill to cope with these feelings is to give you a taste of how it feels to be erased.

He is not ready to hear why you weren't there.

He wants to feel seen.

Let him express those feelings.

An example of how to do that.

"I hear you. I hear how sad and hurt you are, and I am relieved you feel you can tell me. You were at those concerts without me to see you and feel pride in what you were doing, to support you and let you know how important you are to me. This is painful to hear, I won't deny it. It is so painful to think you were there and I wasn't.

It might be different with your son because he's older, but I found with my son (when he was 11, 12, 13) that I had to do things in parts. If he was emotionally aroused, I would validate and only validate. Then, later, when it was cooled jets all around, I could revisit the conversation. "Hey, remember when we were talking about the time when you had to wait over an hour for me? I didn't know your thing was going to get out early. What's something we can do next time, if that ever happens again?"

In general, it worked better for us when I brought him in to the problem solving. My kid is a bit of a contrarian so solving things for him just invites resistance. If I ask for his input, he channels his energy into solving a problem instead of taking apart a perfectly good solution.

With your son, it might be:

"What can I do next time I come to town, to make sure we carve out some time together? Do you want me to reach out if I find out I'm flying to your town last minute? Or is it better to just contact you when I know far in advance? You have a busy life and I want to be respectful of your time. I also want to see you more and spend time as you transition to this next phase of your life."

[david]

Just a thought. He might like it if it was just you and him without his sister. That might not be easy to do but it might help.

[Stolen]

My daughters have been "too busy" to see me for almost 6 years now.  I just keep in mind that while the alienation is torture for me, it is a solution for them, a way for them to survive the cognitive dissonance that they have had foisted upon them.  I struggle to not see their actions and words (when I used to hear them) as being authentic, but to be the reflection of the pathogenic parenting that Childress writes so vividly about.

Truthbeknown,  my $0.02, noting it comes from one who has been a dismal failure at making any progress against alienation,  my $0.02 is to not address the response to your wayward text. But rather continue on a simple, separate path -  restate when you will be in town, and how much you would like to see your son (and daughter). That they are your priority when you are in their town, and how much you would like them to accept that priority as their schedules allow.  Let them know you are looking forward to it.  Anything more will be seen as the dreaded "pressure" and will probably be counter productive.

Good luck,  I know when I felt it necessary to reply to every disappointment from them it never made anything better. 

Breath deeply and hopefully you will find some peace.

[truthbeknown]

Hi truthbeknown,

I hope you forgive yourself for the stray text sent to your son. These things happen. Living with someone who is BPD can make you feel that there is no room for error, when of course there is plenty of room to be human.

You also deserve to express your frustration to your support circle.

It is equal parts frightening and painful to feel we are losing our kids to what amounts to a foggy, vague battle. I have never felt so helpless than I did when confronting alienation tactics, watching them take root in my son and destroying not only his soul, but our relationship, too.

I know it is different for everyone... .parental alienation is insidious and there are conditions over which we have little to no control so there's no silver bullet. And I know that the BPD person's behavior is often worse by any measure. But for me, the turning point happened when I focused on my behavior because it was the only thing over which I had control.

It took me a lot of therapy to get my head there.

You can only control how you interact with your son.

I think our kids largely have no concept of family life that doesn't involve dysfunction and triangulation. They need to learn (slowly) that there is an alternative, but it won't happen in one or two conversations.

My T would describe your son's behavior as attempting to erase you, which is something people do when they feel erased. The key is to then let them feel seen, which is not so easy to do when we are fighting to be seen at the same time.

Part of what I had to learn was to stop trying to get my needs met at the same time my son was trying to get his met. I had to get mine met in therapy, too. It wasn't working to try and get my son to see things the way I saw them.

For your son, the way he sees it, you did not attend his band concerts, a painful feeling for him. Sometimes we have to tend to the feelings first before we can address the distortions. It had to feel painful for him to not have you at his concerts. He wishes you had been there and he's hurt and sad, and time has turned that hurt into anger. He has found that his only skill to cope with these feelings is to give you a taste of how it feels to be erased.

He is not ready to hear why you weren't there.

He wants to feel seen.

Let him express those feelings.

An example of how to do that.

"I hear you. I hear how sad and hurt you are, and I am relieved you feel you can tell me. You were at those concerts without me to see you and feel pride in what you were doing, to support you and let you know how important you are to me. This is painful to hear, I won't deny it. It is so painful to think you were there and I wasn't.

It might be different with your son because he's older, but I found with my son (when he was 11, 12, 13) that I had to do things in parts. If he was emotionally aroused, I would validate and only validate. Then, later, when it was cooled jets all around, I could revisit the conversation. "Hey, remember when we were talking about the time when you had to wait over an hour for me? I didn't know your thing was going to get out early. What's something we can do next time, if that ever happens again?"

In general, it worked better for us when I brought him in to the problem solving. My kid is a bit of a contrarian so solving things for him just invites resistance. If I ask for his input, he channels his energy into solving a problem instead of taking apart a perfectly good solution.

With your son, it might be:

"What can I do next time I come to town, to make sure we carve out some time together? Do you want me to reach out if I find out I'm flying to your town last minute? Or is it better to just contact you when I know far in advance? You have a busy life and I want to be respectful of your time. I also want to see you more and spend time as you transition to this next phase of your life."

livednlearned:  wow, thank you for all your dialogue recommendations. I see i need alot of practice.  Do you offer coaching?  .   it seems so un-natural to talk like that.  I guess it's a new language patterns so it feels different.  But i did realize today that i was trying to get my needs met by a 17yo who can barely meet his own needs.  On top of that his mother triangulates him and pours salt in the wounds instead of comforting him.   I have to rewind and start again. I've been so hurt myself by all of this that i guess i couldn't handle his rejection of erasing of me because so many dads don't even try to connect with kids and I suppose i wanted points for trying.  Oye.  I guess I need to work on myself alot more.

 

[truthbeknown]

My daughters have been "too busy" to see me for almost 6 years now.  I just keep in mind that while the alienation is torture for me, it is a solution for them, a way for them to survive the cognitive dissonance that they have had foisted upon them.  I struggle to not see their actions and words (when I used to hear them) as being authentic, but to be the reflection of the pathogenic parenting that Childress writes so vividly about.

Truthbeknown,  my $0.02, noting it comes from one who has been a dismal failure at making any progress against alienation,  my $0.02 is to not address the response to your wayward text. But rather continue on a simple, separate path -  restate when you will be in town, and how much you would like to see your son (and daughter). That they are your priority when you are in their town, and how much you would like them to accept that priority as their schedules allow.  Let them know you are looking forward to it.  Anything more will be seen as the dreaded "pressure" and will probably be counter productive.

Good luck,  I know when I felt it necessary to reply to every disappointment from them it never made anything better. 

Breath deeply and hopefully you will find some peace.

thank you for your comments.  how can we affect change? i know this is a broken system but I wish there was a way we could come together (the alienated parents) and lobby for change in the court systems or some kind of way to convince schools to teach about this.  My friend, who is from Israel, said that they have made progress over there and now they are taking action against alienating parents in the courts.  We are so far behind in this country.

[livednlearned]

it seems so un-natural to talk like that.  I guess it's a new language patterns so it feels different. 

Use words that you would say 

It's the underlying intent that you are trying to convey (I am listening, I hear you, your feelings matter).

It can also feel awkward to be vulnerable, if you are not used to feeling that way, which is what happens when we actively listen and bear witness to someone else's raw pain.

This is a stepping stone to genuine intimacy.

Kids who are alienated, who have a BPD parent, tend to be starved for intimacy.

Also, when you are emotionally present for your child, it seems to help remove the presence of the other parent. When we engage in justifying, arguing, denying, or explaining (what others here refer to as JADE), the presence of the other parent cannot be avoided because so much of the narrative tends to be driven by them, then routed through the kids.

I don't know if emotional validation (which is what this is) will reverse the alienation, but it does not make it easy to spread.

Emotional validation also does not mean you validate the invalid. Meaning, you validate the feelings, not the facts.

"I understand you want to punch me in the face"

is different than

"You feel angry, this is hard stuff. You wanted me there and I wasn't."

[ForeverDad]

Over the years I've read a multitude of approaches.  One not yet mentioned was generally suggested when the ex didn't allow the children to have contact with a member.  In your case the children are older and it's the children who have been trained to block or reject you.  I think this could be another approach to consider... .Write letters.  Save a copy since they might not be read the first time around.  Put them away in a shoe box.  Maybe in years to come when your child, perhaps even grown by then, says you weren't there for them, didn't care, didn't love then you can offer to share your shoe box of letters and memories.  It may have an impact later for all you know and weaken that wall of pain or whatever.

Disclaimer... .I'm not a letter writer so you should ponder what approaches and methods might work for you.

[Stolen]

thank you for your comments.  how can we affect change? i know this is a broken system but I wish there was a way we could come together (the alienated parents) and lobby for change in the court systems or some kind of way to convince schools to teach about this.  My friend, who is from Israel, said that they have made progress over there and now they are taking action against alienating parents in the courts.  We are so far behind in this country.

The most promising effort I am aware of is spearheaded by Dr. Craig Childress.  If you have not read his work, start here: https://drcraigchildressblog.com/2018/02/21/the-petition-to-the-apa-washington-dc/ and then work yourself forward.  He is already "certifying" professionals in an attachment-based approach to alienation, there is a pilot program started in the Texas courts, and he is delivering a petitions with over 19,000 signatures to the APA in the next couple of weeks.

[truthbeknown]

Use words that you would say 

It's the underlying intent that you are trying to convey (I am listening, I hear you, your feelings matter).

It can also feel awkward to be vulnerable, if you are not used to feeling that way, which is what happens when we actively listen and bear witness to someone else's raw pain.

This is a stepping stone to genuine intimacy.

Kids who are alienated, who have a BPD parent, tend to be starved for intimacy.

Also, when you are emotionally present for your child, it seems to help remove the presence of the other parent. When we engage in justifying, arguing, denying, or explaining (what others here refer to as JADE), the presence of the other parent cannot be avoided because so much of the narrative tends to be driven by them, then routed through the kids.

I don't know if emotional validation (which is what this is) will reverse the alienation, but it does not make it easy to spread.

Emotional validation also does not mean you validate the invalid. Meaning, you validate the feelings, not the facts.

"I understand you want to punch me in the face"

is different than

"You feel angry, this is hard stuff. You wanted me there and I wasn't."

One thing that i can say is that i used to study this stuff and try to do it with their mom when we were married. Any slightest deviation from my normal speaking patterns she picked up on and told me I was trying to be her psychologist.  So the more empathetic i got with the validating statements i made in the past to her the more she would turn it against me.  It's the ultimate double bind.  And now she seems to be teaching the kids that.  When i try to help them i get framed as "trying to be their psychologist instead of just listening".   

So I while i appreciate the strategies i'm at a loss because i feel they will pick up on my different language patterns and just use that against me too.  It's a sad state of affairs and my health has not been great lately and I think alot of it is the mental stress has finally gotten to me.  I feel like i might have to accept that they will just believe i'm a bad father and go off and try and live my life?   I feel defeated and very little energy to fight this. I have to focus on getting my professional life in order and if that means staying with my family while i recover i think that's what i have to do.  That won't help my relationship with them but it might be too late?  I need to figure out how to protect myself mentally and getting rejected is very hard on me because i am emotionally sensitive after all of this.  I've actually been working with a therapist who specializes in PTSD but it's expensive and can only go every once in a while. 

Thank you for all the tips.  I hope that i can figure out a way to integrate them in a little bit. 

Oh one more thing.  My daughter who was very excited to see me the first day treated me like the enemy yesterday.  She finally warmed up by the time our visit was over but she cut it short as she said she was tired.  They definiitly don't seem to value my time with them and i think they are punishing me in some way.  I feel like i'm not strong enough to handle the negativity. 

[soundofmusicgirl]

handling parental alienation is the hardest thing to fight. I thought that the older the kids get they would be able to discern their own experience from all the lies they are being told.
Unfortunately we are also in a situation where that is not true and they are struggling to believe their own experience vs what BPDmom tells them.

Right now my husband (their father) has pretty much given up on having meaningful contact. He tries to talk to them, but they keep hanging up. They tell him that they are so happy they get to spend time with their maternal grandparents instead of visiting him for the summer (we are supposed to have them for 5 weeks).

Yes, it is extremely hurtful. Unfortunately my husband does not go to therapy to help him deal with this and therefore takes it very personal. Before every call with this sons he says: i am getting my daily beating.

It is hard to stand by and watch. My stepsons are turning 12 this year. They really need their father. But they are so messed up with all the lies that they simply can't see what they are giving up.

[truthbeknown]

Just a thought. He might like it if it was just you and him without his sister. That might not be easy to do but it might help.

David,

I have done that in the past but in the last year he makes getting together with him impossible or improbable and then projects onto me a lack of empathy for his situation (so fascinating this brainwashing stuff).   So i wish that were possible but not right now.  The same thing happened to my oldest daughter.  She was 18 when we got separated but her mom and her friend had already taken control of her time several years earlier to the point that it went 10 years before i finally had one-one time with her (2months ago).  So i think there is a pattern and until he lives on his own or gets married after college? it could be rough road.

[truthbeknown]

handling parental alienation is the hardest thing to fight. I thought that the older the kids get they would be able to discern their own experience from all the lies they are being told.
Unfortunately we are also in a situation where that is not true and they are struggling to believe their own experience vs what BPDmom tells them.

Right now my husband (their father) has pretty much given up on having meaningful contact. He tries to talk to them, but they keep hanging up. They tell him that they are so happy they get to spend time with their maternal grandparents instead of visiting him for the summer (we are supposed to have them for 5 weeks).

Yes, it is extremely hurtful. Unfortunately my husband does not go to therapy to help him deal with this and therefore takes it very personal. Before every call with this sons he says: i am getting my daily beating.

It is hard to stand by and watch. My stepsons are turning 12 this year. They really need their father. But they are so messed up with all the lies that they simply can't see what they are giving up.

Its like reliving a death over and over again.  Each time they reject you it feels like they are lost or the part of them that loved you died.  My health and mental health has taken a hit from this stress.  Therapy? well it's hard because the trauma keeps reoccurring.  It's like emotional rape.  We don't conscent to this turning of children against us and yet they carry out the orders of the Alienator.   

I haven't been able to even rebuild my life up till this point because i've just been surviving emotionally and physically working two jobs to keep up my obligations and no way to date and even have someone like yourself who can be a support person in my life.  Truthfully i would probably feel guilty bringing this much pain into a partners life.  But i fantasize about having a normal or somewhat healthy life again.  My mom keeps encouraging me to "move on" because they don't treat me well.  But they are my kids so i keep taking my beating as well.   Someday i want to raise awareness with other children in the schools etc about parental alienation.  The problem is that its not recognized by the courts so it's an uphill battle.