Do I actually have a fear of abandonment?

[Teno]

I've been looking at myself and wondering why I get so affected by all these jabs and how I'm allowing myself to be so affected. It feels like I'm in competition with my a wife and MIL. Everyone always tells me you the father and no one can take that away from you... .The fear of loosing the relationship with my children... .?

My wife has no problem undermining me or pulling my kids away from me. Example when my youngest come to hold my hand walking down the street: "what about holding moms hand?" I don't like the sound of that but I let it go and my young child will go to mom. My MIL have no problem doing similar things! It really gets to me as they just get their own way.

But now if that gets turned around all hell breaks loose!

Getting ready for school my youngest child ask if mom could brush her hair. I had a abandonment feeling and thought for a change I'm going to open my insecurity feelings and ask: why can't dad brush your hair?
Probably was more like: I would also liked to be asked to do something.

That opened such an attack from my wife, how I'm insecure, how can i make the kids feel bad, totally devaluing my feelings, belittling me, the kids just looking at all of this. The words were pretty rough. I did not reciprocate much but just told my wife that is how I feel and you can't talk to me like that. That fell on death ears and my wife got her way again. She ended brushing the girls hair and all happy again.

I don't want to point fingers, maybe I don't have any major abandonment issues and I'm just feeling my wife's projections? Has anyone been here?

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[Mutt]

Do you mean feel anxiety? You’re the kids are a permanent attachmebt but I would anxious if I were in your shoes. I felt so distressed when I was seperated and my wife told me what I wanted hear before she left then she said you can have the kids every second weekend. I feared losing my kids or losing a lot of parenting time. It’s worse for you she’s getting in the middle of your r/s with the kids in your own house.

[Harri]

hi and welcome.  What a difficult and hurtful situation to be in.  The thing is, I think most people would feel hurt in your position. 

I don't think your response to all of this is fear of abandonment, though you may have it (a lot of people do even without being BPD).  Your wife and mother in law seem to me to be the ones with fear of abandonment and as a result are pulling the kids towards them rather than trying to support and encourage a relationship with you, their father.  brushing your child's hair and holding their hand are a normal and healthy part of being a dad.  Please do not let your wife and MIL's reactions to it to define your relationship with your kids.  Easier said than done I know.  Those so called little jabs can destroy a persons confidence.  The fact that your wife is saying belittling and degrading things in front of your kids is abusive, to you and your kids.

Are you familiar with defining and setting boundaries and something called parental alienation?  Do some reading on those topics and then post some more so we can help you learn how to deal with these instances and hopefully, over time defuse things at least at your end so you can focus on you and being a father to your kids.

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits
Parental alienation syndrome - Craig Childress PsyD

Please note that most of the videos and articles on Parental alienation refer to it occurring in cases of divorce but it can and does happen even within marriages.  My mother did that with me and my father (my brother as well).

Wishing you the very best with this and hope you come back and post some more so we can discuss things.

[Speck]

Hello, Teno!

Thank you for sharing with us:

I've been looking at myself and wondering why I get so affected by all these jabs and how I'm allowing myself to be so affected. It feels like I'm in competition with my a wife and MIL. My wife has no problem undermining me or pulling my kids away from me.

Well, for one thing... .the stuff you're being subjected to is actually rude and very hurtful. I would be upset if I were constantly being undermined in front of my kid, too. What do you want to do about it? The reason I ask this is that it will most likely be up to you to affect a change here. Do you think you could start setting some boundaries with your wife regarding this type of behavior?

I don't want to point fingers, maybe I don't have any major abandonment issues and I'm just feeling my wife's projections? Has anyone been here?

Yes, I totally understand where you are coming from, as I have been treated like this many times by my uBPDxw. I'm sorry you're experiencing this. This type of behavior is very hurtful and can leave you feeling rather unbalanced in your relationship. An unbalanced relationship is an unhealthy relationship. And, in your case, it seems as though your wife usually comes out on top with most of the power. She may be doing this unconsciously without any regard, care, or deep understanding how you feel about it. Have you tried sitting her down and letting her know?

I believe you will be greatly comforted by the support here and the fact that we really understand what you are going through. We've all been there to varying degrees. Take care of yourself. We will look out for future posts from you.

Keep writing, keep processing, keep learning!


-Speck

[once removed]

It feels like I'm in competition with my a wife and MIL.

you are. remember the karpman drama triangle: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

its likely that she feels similarly, if not for different reasons. understanding her perspective and what drives her (not condoning her actions) can really help here.

likely, when she says things like "what about holding moms hand" its more about her own fears and insecurities than it is alienating you from your child; though it is possible that she sees you as trying to alienate her. at the end of the day, it sounds like you are both seeing it that way to some extent.

it has your child in the middle.

communication is key here. mom and dad need to get on the same page, best they can, and work together, best they can. you may or may not have a willing partner in that, and you will need tools when/if you dont.

why not open the door to this communication? pick a good time, and/or place. pose a neutral, not loaded question. let her know in words, actions, and active listening, that her thoughts and feelings, as coparent, are highly valued, and your goal is to get on the same page. you can share your thoughts and feelings, whats in and out of bounds (do this after youve listened, responded, validated; dont respond to her concerns with yours).

and as always, remember your fair fighting rules: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

[Teno]

Thanks for all your reply's, All these events wears at your emotions, most of the time I've managed to keep emotionally strong, but in the last year I found myself struggling not reflecting my emotions onto my children, wife and life. I've taken a step back now.

I feared losing my kids or losing a lot of parenting time.

That is a very strong feeling, probably one of the reasons why my uNPDMIL and Wife (NPD traits) got away with so much. I'm a stay at home dad and work from home. My wife will rescue the kids when I discipline them and in reverse all hell could break loose from her side. Today I'll be asked or pointed to follow house rules and I just do it, the next day she breaks them and it will get trivialized when I point it out. It is unbalanced.

Thinking back some hard things were said with my hand behind my back, and the reality of loosing my children was very real.

Your wife and mother in law seem to me to be the ones with fear of abandonment and as a result are pulling the kids towards them rather than trying to support and encourage a relationship with you, their father.

Being stay at home dad, was not accepted by my Wife's family and I'd a very hard time and it was lonely as hell. My wife also sided with her mom. Same as the house rules, now my wife will support me and then its gone.

My mother did that with me and my father (my brother as well).

My MIL did that to her Husband but only one daughter can see through it and supports her dad. I spoke to my SIL and she also used to support her mom against her Husband. My wife fear her mother more than me. So it is easier to push me over.

Last year I pushed back real hard against the MIL(My first time trying to set boundaries), My wife had sympathy and apologized for her families behavior, next minute I was the devil again. I think this actually pushed her towards her mom. Her mom the victim, Wife the rescuer and me the persecutor.

likely, when she says
 things like "what about holding moms hand" its more about her own fears and insecurities than it is alienating you from your child; though it is possible that she sees you as trying to alienate her. at the end of the day, it sounds like you are both seeing it that way to some extent.

These reactions could be a through back from the relationship I've with her family that has totally broken down, except for SIL and her husband(The husband is in the same boat as me but on the same page with his wife.) One thing that gets thrown at me from my wife is that I'm jealous of the relationship my wife and MIL have with our children. I've issues and I must sort it out?

I can see that aspect and started seeing a T. I've been reading as much as I can about bringing up children, validating them, verbal abuse, Disarming the Narcissist, started a parenting course, luckily my wife decided to join in, not fully committed. That does help us to get on the same page without ending up in conflict.

I try not to get caught in the karpman drama triangle. It is a minefield for me. It is just so hard to be put second. When we are as a family together they will normally just hold moms hand and I walk by myself. I've mentioned this in a controlled conversation and what I got from my wife was, The children love you and you should just walk with us.

We've had some good conversations about her mom and I could point out a lot of things that is not healthy. Then comes crises, money, family and she'll just flop around. Then she and her mom will make decisions and ignore the boundaries I've/We've set. When I bring up the boundaries in conversation it gets trivialized, was never said, you just jealous of the relationship my mom have with the grandchildren. I'm pretty good now at avoiding the strong conflict, If I push to hard things will be done behind my back.

Since seeing the T I've opened up more, doing my best to be fully honest and pointing out the abuse. My oldest daughter is picking up on that and she's modelling me. There is some triangle running in the Mother and daughters relationships. Seems like my oldest might be the scapegoat. I'm in the dark here.

why not open the door to this communication? pick a good time, and/or place. pose a neutral, not loaded question. let her know in words, actions, and active listening, that her thoughts and feelings, as coparent, are highly valued, and your goal is to get on the same page. you can share your thoughts and feelings, whats in and out of bounds (do this after youve listened, responded, validated; dont respond to her concerns with yours).

Thanks for this, I'll have a good go, be mindful and try not hit a nerve. You're correct, about being on the same page. Over time it becomes hard to open deeper conversation if you get shot down all the time over trivial things. I lost my voice over time.

[once removed]

really good you started seeing a T. our partners can be difficult to say the least, and its really hard to stay centered and grounded, and even when you are... .

PS. we all have a fear of abandonment, and of engulfment. its just stronger for some than others, not unlike the fear of flying on a plane.

feeling left out is a big trigger for me, but nobody likes it, especially consistently.

[Teno]

really good you started seeing a T. our partners can be difficult to say the least, and its really hard to stay centered and grounded, and even when you are... .

PS. we all have a fear of abandonment, and of engulfment. its just stronger for some than others, not unlike the fear of flying on a plane.

feeling left out is a big trigger for me, but nobody likes it, especially consistently.

I spoke to my T. My wife fear her mother more than me. My wife is potentially frustrated with my fear of abandonment. That triggers her. Not sure when the printer does not work how that is related to my fears? I do not brake printers!
Our kids are codependents to my wife and she's getting her love from our kids that she's not getting from me. Wife also gets all her needs from me met and won't change. Obviously what I'm doing is not working.

My T also suggest that I could be codependent to our children and I had a good think about it. Yes sure but if your wife comes up with things like: I'll only have time for you when the kids are older, I don't want to get a babysitter, I want to spend that time with the kids instead. What then? I'm very careful not to enmesh the kids, sometimes it is just a mind field trying to set limits when I get undermined and become the cop.

It was the end of our session and T said: That puts you in a difficult position.

[Teno]

The kids and wife left their used plates on the breakfast counter and thought everyone can pack their own stuff away this. Asking wife to pack her dirty plate away: "Could you please clean up your plate?" Answer: "I'm an adult"
Her attitude is how dare I ask her to clean up. Totally downplayed the mess the kids made. I asked the kids to clean up and they did, but mom just left her dish.

I've no problem cleaning my or our mess up when she asks. I just do it and don't need to hit back with a crappy remark.

[once removed]

My wife is potentially frustrated with my fear of abandonment. That triggers her.

how so?

Not sure when the printer does not work how that is related to my fears? I do not brake printers!

what happened with the printer?

Our kids are codependents to my wife and she's getting her love from our kids that she's not getting from me. Wife also gets all her needs from me met and won't change. Obviously what I'm doing is not working.

in what sense is she not getting love from you? also, what do you mean when you say shes getting her needs met from you?

"Could you please clean up your plate?" Answer: "I'm an adult"

okay. so, people with BPD traits are very sensitive to tone of voice and facial expressions, sometimes to the point of reading more into them than is there. additionally, they are highly sensitive to perceived slights.

not taking her side, but i can understand why she took it that way. it could come off a bit fatherly. you might want to read up a bit on the "punitive parent". people with BPD often project this role onto us. often we play right into it.

how might you go about a similar situation next time?

[Teno]

how so?
I think what happens sometimes I try not to hurt or upset her feelings. Then very easily it becomes about my feelings. Her mom could never front to saying no and then fault the child for wanting something. That is the fear suppose. I should own my feelings. Does that make sense?



what happened with the printer? Wife started working at home. The wifi and/or printer did not work. I could see her stressed and I helped and I tried my best to valudate her. I've been screamed at for at least the last for months. When I could or dare not help her it just got worse. "I'm going to kill myself,  I'm just f** giving up, etc." I did addressed but just got minimised. I would disturb her in the office and I would get abused. When the kids go she has all the time.

in what sense is she not getting love from you? I'll need to get back t you on this one. Something to do with codependency?

also, what do you mean when you say shes getting her needs met from you?
I'm the one chasing, always backing down from conflict, she says what she wants. My emotions are getting drained and I'm just filling hers.


okay. so, people with BPD traits are very sensitive to tone of voice and facial expressions, sometimes to the point of reading more into them than is there. additionally, they are highly sensitive to perceived slights.

not taking her side, but i can understand why she took it that way. it could come off a bit fatherly. you might want to read up a bit on the "punitive parent". people with BPD often project this role onto us. often we play right into it.

Being fatherly would've hit the nerve. For me it was also standing up for myself. Saying what I want. Normally I would let it go to avoid conflict. I tried my best not to trigger.

How would we play straight into it punitive parenting?

https://sites.google.com/site/cognitivetherapycenterofli/self-help-materials/borderline-personality-disorder


how might you go about a similar situation next time.

I see you busy on you phone, I've just cleaned the table, do you mind if you and kids clean up? Coming with a loving way.

[once removed]

Wife started working at home. The wifi and/or printer did not work. I could see her stressed and I helped and I tried my best to valudate her. I've been screamed at for at least the last for months.

this could possibly be an area where youre making yourself a target. a dysregulated person is hard to help, and the tools have limited (not useless) results. quite often, its just putting yourself in the line of fire. your intentions may not come through.

plus, validating someone who is dysregulated can be validating the invalid. if shes screaming about the printer, theres really nothing to validate, we are past the point of "yeah i would be frustrated too".

For me it was also standing up for myself. Saying what I want. Normally I would let it go to avoid conflict.

when i was in school, they taught me about the difference between being passive, assertive, and aggressive.

a lot of us, in these relationships, become doormats, and/or walk on eggshells. its not a healthy approach. neither is it a healthy approach to damn the torpedoes and let it fly, and sometimes we overcompensate for the walking on eggshells by doing that. being assertive, having good boundaries, are a balance.

How would we play straight into it punitive parenting?

you found a great explanation of schema modes. the punitive parent is an inner critic. we play into it, effectively, by being critical, shaming, rejecting, expressing or showing our disappointment.

[Speck]

Hello, Teno:

How have you been doing since the last time you shared?

We're here if you need to talk.


-Speck

[Teno]

Just having a positive parenting conversation before breakfast time. The kids are mocking and whining at each other. The one comes to me whining about the other. I asked D6 to use a clear voice to know what she is saying and heard D8 out. I was busy making suggestions how they could do it better without mocking each other .

Wife flatly interrupts me and tells D6 you should not mock your sister and just took over my parenting effort. I waited her to finish and finished my conversation with kids. This happens too often and I had to say something to wife.

I calmly said that I'm busy talking to the kids and you can't interrupt me. I tried my best to keep a neutral face and not invalidating her. The answer I got was: I'm also allowed to talk. I just restated myself and said: You are allowed to talk but you interrupted me and that is not OK. Wife again: I'm allowed to talk.

The total disregard and pulling of the face just stings me. I just had to swallow that pain and keep a straight face. If I even had to interrupt her slightly when she disciplined the kids I would be so belittled.

On the way to school I asked my daughters if the think it was ok for Mom to interrupt Dad like that. The oldest said no and I changed the subject. I probably should have asked them if it is Ok to interrupt someone when they talking instead of using mom directly. Is there a better way to do that?

I've been looking at when I might feel abandoned and removed myself much as possible from those situations. Unfortunately my wife lives by her own set of rules and conveniently forget boundaries and rules when it suits her. We decide the kids can't have those biscuits today. The kids asks me and I say no. Later kids are running around with biscuits that mom gave them.

It is not just with the kids, disagree the slightest or make a suggestion and I get the look or words of you are so stupid for thinking that.

I'm starting to see the fears in myself and see how they allow my wife to walk over my boundaries.

[Teno]

Just having a positive parenting conversation before breakfast time. The kids are mocking and whining at each other. The one comes to me whining about the other. I asked D6 to use a clear voice to know what she is saying and heard D8 out. I was busy making suggestions how they could do it better without mocking each other .

Wife flatly interrupts me and tells D6 you should not mock your sister and just took over my parenting effort. I waited her to finish and finished my conversation with kids. This happens too often and I had to say something to wife.

I calmly said that I'm busy talking to the kids and you can't interrupt me. I tried my best to keep a neutral face and not invalidating her. The answer I got was: I'm also allowed to talk. I just restated myself and said: You are allowed to talk but you interrupted me and that is not OK. Wife again: I'm allowed to talk.

The total disregard and pulling of the face just stings me. I just had to swallow that pain and keep a straight face. If I even had to interrupt her slightly when she disciplined the kids I would be so belittled.

On the way to school I asked my daughters if the think it was ok for Mom to interrupt Dad like that. The oldest said no and I changed the subject. I probably should have asked them if it is Ok to interrupt someone when they talking instead of using mom directly. Is there a better way to do that?

I've been looking at when I might feel abandoned and removed myself much as possible from those situations. Unfortunately my wife lives by her own set of rules and conveniently forget boundaries and rules when it suits her. We decide the kids can't have those biscuits today. The kids asks me and I say no. Later kids are running around with biscuits that mom gave them.

It is not just with the kids, disagree the slightest or make a suggestion and I get the look or words of you are so stupid for thinking that.

I'm starting to see the fears in myself and see how they allow my wife to walk over my boundaries.

We've been at a parenting course for the last couple of months(Wife was resistant to the idea) : We actually covered the points of positive parenting the night before and not interrupting your spouse when they are disciplining.

[backAnd4th]

Not sure how valuable this perspective is but my experience with a uBPD partner (now ex), especially trying to understand it after the fact, is that a lot of the fears and insecurities that she had (or at least the symptoms claimed she might have had) didn't really seem all that abnormal for human beings in general, and that her inability to effectively regulate her emotions (also a BPD symptom I think) just caused her to feel them and act out on them harder than people typically do. I have had many periods of time where I've wondered if I might be disordered myself in some way. I eventually concluded that I didn't, but your post reminded me of the fact that I have wondered that before and I don't think it's an unusual thing to think about.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel like everyone has some small fear of abandonment, however tiny, and it's just a matter of how you are able to process those fears and feelings.

[Teno]

My D6 six asks me if I can read her a bed time story? uBPDw interrupts and says I'll read to you instead and takes over. My hart sunk. That puts my daughter in a difficult position and she says I love reading to both of you. I could sense she feels pressured that she has to choose between mom and dad now. I just reassured my love to her and said we can read another time.

A similar thing happened tonight: Wife and daughters was going to a school show and I went to the parenting course. I cooked dinner, got the kids ready for the show and did a quick tidy of the house. Wife worked late and had no time to get the kids ready. They left in time for the show and it was fun.

I got home a bit after them and the kids where pretty much ready for bed. I always try to play a guitar la la bye . My wife lashed at me, there is so much to clean (couple of dishes) and you are not playing guitar now! I just said: You're bossing me and I'll play guitar. Normal eye roles etc. Can't belief that I actually felt guilty for playing the la la bye. I just pushed through and finished my song and said good night.

Later I got asked what I learned at the parenting course? Natural and Logical consequences. amazingly halfway through got turned around on how she is going to set consequences. In a very punitive I'll get at you way.

Things has gone pretty wild lately and I've stayed very calm, hardly reacted,validated the best I could and started to state when i get invalidated.

Lately her controlling behavior has sky rocketed. Everything i suggest is wrong, how stupid can I be. It is all my fault that she's getting so frustrated and everyone's packing dirty dishes because we want to make it hard for her. We don't care and we can do better without her. She may just as well not be here... .So many things are said that I can't keep up with it!

I'm getting the grunt of it and my D8 gets more than D6. I've stepped to the side and it feels like my W is trying to gain control again.

My fear of loosing my daughters and wife is probably the reason why I've allowed so much abuse to happen and affect me. It is just a sad.

[once removed]

communication is key here. mom and dad need to get on the same page, best they can, and work together, best they can. you may or may not have a willing partner in that, and you will need tools when/if you dont.

have you had this conversation?

one idea (youll need more) might be for the both of you to read/put your daughter to bed.

[Teno]

have you had this conversation?

We know we should be on the same page.

We've had conversations. I think my wife feels inadequate about her parenting. In the past I've approached it wrongly by not validating her parenting. Not intended, but she probably always saw it is a attack. I'll probably always be at loss here even if I do it perfectly.

The times we've had good conversations and we agreed on parenting rules it never lasted long. Normally the rules is only good enough if my SO have established them or it makes her life easier.

We, but mostly me have just finished a 14 week parenting course, but my SO fought it all the way. Not enough time, we don't need it, I'm so stressed out, stupid course... .I'm glad I went and ignored my SO's protests. The times she made it she could see the benefit and actually enjoyed coming.

Made me even realize more how important these formative years are.

one idea (youll need more) might be for the both of you to read/put your daughter to bed.

Thanks for the tip and I'll be trying a few more things.

I've set up evening and morning charts for the kids, it greatly reduce stress and it minimizes the power struggles(I'm recognizing and avoiding the power struggles now). I'm just validating the kids feelings, being mindful and spending time with them and ignoring the FOG.

My SO is having a very stressful time with work and emotions. Unfortunately it comes out at home where she wants to gain control again in her life, more magnified than usual.