Closest to Closure I’m Likely to Get

[DogMan75]

I broke up with her in November. We’ve texted each other a little in past few months. Each time she’s included something like “we owe it to ourselves to try again someday,” “what would it take to try again,” or the like. She’s gone on a couple of dates, but nothing serious, hasn’t slept with anybody and doesn’t want to sleep with anybody but me (neither have I, neither do I). It sounded like she was motivated to and thinking about reconciliation, if not quite there yet.

We got into a little argument at the end of April, but she was uncharacteristically determined to resolve it -or at least became so after some discussion. For the first time since the breakup I said, “If we could learn to get to this point quickly and regularly, I could see giving this another try.”

Her responses became a bit brief after that, but she was very busy at that point, so I didn’t think much of it.

We had an upcoming court date scheduled for this past Friday (we broke the lease on spiteful landlords who then refused to try and fill the apartment), in which we’d have to see each other for the first time since the breakup -I had turned down all overtures up to that point. I texted her and asked if she wanted to hang out after court.

“We’ll see as it gets closer. I’m really trying to move forward.”

“I’m getting some mixed signals here,” I said.

“I can see that but I can’t talk about that right now.”

Ugh, I thought. Ok, push-pull, nevermind. The very first time I even hint there might be a chance to try again and she flip-flops. I text “Ok then, nevermind. Forget I asked”. For me, this was like the definitive “Ok, I’m really done now” moment. I feel free.

I don’t text her or hear from her again for the next three weeks. Then she starts asking about hanging out after court, she’s looking forward to seeing me, etc. My answers are brief, but I do agree to hang out. If nothing else, I can finally pick up the last of my stuff, which I’d been putting off, so this would be the last time I’d need to see her, and I’d have to see her that day anyway.

I meet her at court, and I’m pretty icy at first. I barely look at her and when she touched my ear, asking if my old piercings were still open, I flinched. The hearing did not go our way, and the landlords and the magistrate who was running it, were awful.

As we leave  I couldn’t help but talk to her about our common problem and I warmed up a little. We both drove separately to her house. I packed my remaining belongings she had boxed up for me into my car, and we drove to a nearby shopping plaza. We walked around and talked while we waited for a place to open for lunch.

The conversation is all about how friends and family are doing until we sit down and we start talking about us. Turns out, even though she’s been doing DBT for about a year now, she still denies having BPD. She blames all of her “behavior” on stresses at the time and my poor reactions, etc. She doesn’t seem to have made any real progress since the breakup. It’s a disheartening lunch.

Intermittently during our meal and on the ride back to her house she makes advances about having sex. I know it’s a terrible idea and I’m turning her down, but she knows how tempted I am, which only encourages her. She looks and smells amazing and I’m trying not to even look at her.

We get back to her apartment and I go in to get the last boxes we’d needed to leave out so there’d be room for her in the car, and she is getting extremely aggressive in her advances, literally begging for it. I’m getting pretty close to giving in until somehow it comes up that she has actually been sleeping with people, contrary to what she’d said before, and that snaps me out of it and I leave.

Over texts after I’ve gone I learn that the first person she slept with was only two months after the breakup. I’m extremely hurt by this. After five years, rather than trying to fix what went wrong she’s just given up and having “meaningless” (her words) sex. I know she has every right to, but to think that she could while I was still so devastated and unavailable was painful.

That hurts, and I feel sucker punched that I’d been led to believe for months that she wasn’t sleeping with anybody, never mind multiple people and so soon. I am totally unprepared as I had been told quite the opposite, which she blames on an innocent miscommunication, but she had been pretty clear. My understanding of the entire situation turns out to be a fantasy that has now come crashing down. I say some pretty nasty, abusive things over the course of a few phone, text and email exchanges. It’s my first behavior that I regret with her in over a year.

Ultimately, I calm down and apologize, which she graciously accepts, and we talk a little more reasonably over the next couple days. We end up acknowledging that we really aren’t ready to try again now, but maybe someday in the future. I make it clear that acknowledging her BPD would be a prerequisite for me and she makes it clear that she can’t “compromise her integrity” on that. We exchange I love you’s. We agree we shouldn’t communicate as much. That’s it.

I feel worse now than I did at the initial breakup. That was heated, and all the conflict was fresh and hot. This was after some on and off hope over the last few months and seems more conclusive.

We said “maybe in the future” but I know that’s not true. I think she does too. I really don’t think she’s ever going to change, at least not on a timescale that will matter to us. By the time she’s going to be ready to, if ever, I will be long over it. Somehow, even though that means I won’t hurt like this, that seems so sad to me. I don’t want to be over it. I want it to work.

Intellectually, I know now more than ever that it can’t work. Emotionally, that craving, that desperate urge to call her, to try right now has never been greater. Resisting it takes all of my will.

I have my answers, and this is the closest to closure I’ve gotten thus far, but it just sucks. That’s all.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi Dogman75,

I hear ya! My logical mind often can't get the idea of a relationship not working out, not when I am willing to put in effort. This kind of relationship has easily been one of the most confusing and painful things I've ever dealt with. My tools of logic and reasoning aren't as helpful in this realm of extreme emotion.

It is hard to reconcile one's heart and one's brain sometimes. Sounds like you are stepping your way through this though. Often it really is a matter of time, and one's life changing just enough that it becomes easier to let go of someone that for whatever reason you feel just can't be with.

So would you say that for you her not acknowledging it and getting treatment is a dealbreaker?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[DogMan75]

So would you say that for you her not acknowledging it and getting treatment is a dealbreaker?
 

Hi Pearl!

Yeah, I would. I actually posted this in “Detaching” but it got moved over here. She’s been attending DBT for a year now, but I don’t see much in terms of excercising skills and she still denies BPD unless she’s in crisis.  And we’ve been broken up since Nov. To tell you the truth, I’m not sure why they moved this post.

[Skip]

Reading your case... .5 years together, 12+ months in therapeutic separation, she in DBT for extended period... .you ended it 6 months ago... .both still holding out hope... .

You're attempted get together didn't go well. It sounds like you both longed for the good part of the relationship but then tripped each others triggers before you had a chance to explore reconnecting and it all went west.

You are discouraged, but still care, have hope. Probably true in the here side too.

Is that fair? Accurate?

[Skip]

Reading your case... .5 years together, 12+ months in therapeutic separation, she in DBT for extended period... .you ended it 6 months ago... .both still holding out hope... .

You attempt get together didn't go well. It sounds like you both longed for the good part of the relationship but then tripped each others triggers before you had a chance to explore reconnecting and it all went west.

You are discouraged, but still care, have hope. Probably true for her side too.

Is that fair? Accurate?

So would you say that for you her not acknowledging it and getting treatment is a dealbreaker?

Yeah, I would.

Didn't you say earlier that her therapist is not tagging her as BPD? That is pretty common... .they put a lot more stock in motivating that patient to continue in therapy, rather that risk an emotional crash over being labeled as chronically mentally ill with a highly stigmatized disorder.

We had thread here about schema and many members identified with the lonely child and embraced the concept wholeheartedly. Very active thread until it was pointed out that lonely child was part of the schema pattern for NPD. A 10 page thread died - no one touched it.

I know you have been through a lot and I don't want you to feel second guessed on anything - we do the best we can.

I think I would question whether you this should be the deal breaker. Or even if her involvement with other men after your broke it off should be a deal breaker.

I'm not suggesting that you try again, or walk away, I am just questioning if, after all you have been through, are these the make/break issues?

Typically recovering a relationship requires a fresh outlook, otherwise the parties will fall right back on the arguments that caused them to part.

[DogMan75]

Maybe you’re right. Those are really good points but to think I was committed to breaking up a week ago -I really don’t know.

[Skip]

Not sure I follow, can you explain this a bit more for everyone reading. 

[gilac]

Over texts after I’ve gone I learn that the first person she slept with was only two months after the breakup. I’m extremely hurt by this. After five years, rather than trying to fix what went wrong she’s just given up and having “meaningless” (her words) sex. I know she has every right to, but to think that she could while I was still so devastated and unavailable was painful.

See, this is the hardest part. All people around me had the same reaction "After all this time, she didn't fight for your relationship and just continued with others?". When you realize this you learn that any future attempt would be just because of her needs. You are just another guy to give her pleasure, no more emotions like before.

It's obvious you couldn't continue even like fwb just because of the constant tense relationship. Everything turns around the intimate bond you had once, there's no spark anymore. I learn that things always turn up like this whenever anyone rekindles with a BPD ex. This will probably happen to me if I don't continue strict NC in the future.

[DogMan75]

See, this is the hardest part. All people around me had the same reaction "After all this time, she didn't fight for your relationship and just continued with others?". When you realize this you learn that any future attempt would be just because of her needs. You are just another guy to give her pleasure, no more emotions like before.

It's obvious you couldn't continue even like fwb just because of the constant tense relationship. Everything turns around the intimate bond you had once, there's no spark anymore. I learn that things always turn up like this whenever anyone rekindles with a BPD ex. This will probably happen to me if I don't continue strict NC in the future.

I totally get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure I agree. She’s not a total man eater. I think she is just lonely and trying feel better. Maladaptive, yes, but not so different from what a lot of nons do out of LTRs. But our relationship was real. We are still intimately bonded, for better or for worse, both ways. The spark is the problem -after not seeing her for eight months, it was right back on, instantly. She is painfully shy, I’ve never seen her fully let her guard down around anyone, not friends, not family. I’ve said before that I’m the only person that’s ever truly known her, and I still believe that to be true. I think she does too. As painful as everything was, she does know that I’ve never stopped loving her, ever. Not even for a moment. Even when I’ve hated her, I’ve loved her.

I don’t really believe in FWB, at least, not for me. That’s not how I’m wired. If I was into it, that would be available to me, I’m quite sure. But for me, it’s all or nothing.

Yeah, this is messed up for now, and maybe it is unworkable, but we’ll see. If nothing else, I now feel free to start dating myself. I don’t feel super enthusiastic about it -I actually have gone on a couple dates, they just didn’t lead to sex because I wasn’t into it. I think the best thing to do is go on a ___ ton of dates at this point -it’s just a numbers game. If I’m still pining for her after a couple dozen dates with other people, we can revisit the issue. And if we do try it again, I feel less bad about her sleeping with other people, if I’ve with slept with some myself. If we don’t, I’m out and dating and getting on with my life, and that’s a win too.

Not everybody with BPD is the same. It’s a spectrum. And not every relationship they have with every person is purely symptom of their pathology. I recognized her BPD for what it was five months into a five year relationship. The biggest obstacle to our happiness was her irrational rages. If she could get that under control, the rest would be within acceptable parameters.

I don’t quite meet the criteria for BPD or NPD myself, but I’ve got a lot of crossover -especially in the rage department. For better or for worse, I really do get her, even if that’s not always comfortable.

Maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s just irreparably broken. But maybe it’s not. In either case, doing what’s best for me first will lead me to my best outcome, be that with her or without her. I’d prefer it to be with. I don’t think I realized how many promising points there were until Skip pointed them out. And looking back on Friday, I think she was actually better behaved than I was. I lashed out out of hurt. Maybe she has been getting more out of DBT than I had presumed.

In any case, I started a Tinder account today and did some serious shop therapy to start showcasing the gym bod I’ve been carving up since November. I’ll wait to see if she contacts me again. If and when she does, we can re-evaluate at that time. Until then, working on my life, in all areas, seems like my best option.