New Member: Intro, and what do you think of my divorce plan?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi everyone.  I am very thankful to have found this website.  This is going to be long I’m afraid.  I just wanted to introduce myself and ask for help in if my exit plan looks okay or if there are any suggestions or things I’m not seeing. I have been married to my husband for almost 12 years (together for 15).  We have two children (9 and 5).  I have known from the beginning when we started dating that Husband had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder but it never seemed to fit completely.  I have done so much research on bipolar disorder, been to doctor appointments, counseling sessions, etc. over the years.  I have been an active participant in trying to get him treated.  It wasn’t until just recently that I started looking into borderline personality and really seems to fit him.  He has been seeing a new doctor for about 6 months and she mentioned it about a month ago.  (Although, H told me she said a personality disorder, not necessarily borderline).  

I have tried to leave our relationship three times in the last three years.  Each time I do, he threatens suicide and/or cries about how he doesn’t have anyone else in his life.  He’s recently starting threatening to just leave the state and abandon the kids if I do want a divorce.  That one always gets me.  I take some time to pause, the next day he promises he’ll do better/be better.  Can I please just ride with him through this illness?  He doesn’t understand how I can leave him when he is so sick.  I feel bad and tell myself that I’m being selfish and make myself try to stay in the relationship again.  But it gets worse every single time.  You can skip the next few paragraphs if you don’t want the long version:

The first time I told him I wanted to leave after he and I got into a disagreement and he threatened suicide.  I was so terrified I felt like I couldn’t leave the house, he told me if I called 911 all it would do is get cops killed because he would go out shooting.  He has threatened suicide multiple times in the past but that one really hit me and I realized that I didn’t want to feel like that anymore.  I told him that I couldn’t handle it anymore, he seemed to understand, I took the kids and spent the weekend with my parents and came back home on Sunday night as we didn’t really have a plan to separate.  H begged me to give him another chance, go to the doctor with him that next week so he could request something to pull him out of his deep dark stupor.  I agreed.  His doctor prescribed ADD stimulants which lead to him abusing those for the next 2 years.  Anytime I had an issue with his abuse of those meds, it became my fault.  I was going to leave him because he was sick and this is what he had to do to get me to stay.  (guilt)

The second time – on Christmas Eve 2016 he got drunk (after being sober for 3.5 years) at my parents house.  We have an hour drive home (I was driving) and as soon as we left he started verbally assaulting me in front of our children.  Calling me names, telling me I was stupid, that if I was a man, he’d punch me, etc.  About half way home I told him he was not coming home with us, that I would drop him off at his brothers house.  He went crazy.  Unbuckled his seat belt and as I was driving 65 MPH down the road, threw the car in neutral and grabbed the wheel to make me pull over.  I was terrified, the kids were terrified.  I grabbed my phone to call 911 but he ripped it from my hands and refused to give it back.  We were in the middle of nowhere at 10:00 PM.  I told him I wouldn’t drive until he gave me my phone, he told me that if I didn’t drive, he would drag me out to the cornfield and bury me and that him and the kids would go home without me.  I panicked and drove to the next town that had an open gas station and made him get out of the car.  He told the kids that he was going to jail and it was all my fault.  Told me that I might as well kill him now because he will die in jail, etc.  Promised that if I drove him to his brothers he would stay there.  So I agreed to do that, he got in the car, continued with the verbal abuse and telling the kids all of those same things about how this is all my fault, etc.  I finally drop him off at his brother’s house, he gets out and gets all calm like nothing happened.  Wants to know why I’m acting so crazy and blowing everything out of proportion.  I drive away, try to comfort the kids the rest of the way home (30 minutes).  We get home, I lock all of the doors so he can’t get in.  We are home for 5 minutes and his brother brought him home!  I refuse to let him in the house so he broke the glass door out front so he could use his key in the door.  I call 911, cops come, they can’t do anything because the house is in both of our names.  They get him to leave and go to a hotel for the night.  Long story short – I was traumatized, kids were traumatized.  He came home the next day full of apologies but also digs about how I’m equally responsible for what happened.  If I had just left him alone, it wouldn’t have escalated.  If I would have just let him in the house to sleep it off, it wouldn’t have escalated.  I finally asked him to leave 5 months later.  He moved out for the summer and seemed like he had “changed”.  He received a PTSD diagnosis prior to him moving out and made me feel guilty for not being involved in his treatment.  He’s changed for the better, why can’t I see it, etc.  Making me question my recollection of Christmas Eve (He never jerked the wheel, only put his hand on it to scare me.  Nobody was ever in danger.  I should understand that he can’t control himself when he’s like that.  Get treatment and move on, stop punishing met, etc.)

I let him move back in August after telling him officially that I wanted a divorce.  He went to the hospital that night to check into the psych ward, had the hospital call me, they evaluated him and let him leave.  He was heartbroken because now he has no one.  I have family and friends, he doesn’t.  He’s losing my family, etc.  I felt bad for him and let him stay at the house (stupid) and he turned on the charm.  Apologized for everything that had happened.  Admitted he was 100% in the wrong, could I Please give him another chance.  The kids deserve to have us both in their lives, etc.  I stupidly agreed.
He was good for awhile and then started slipping into his poor me routine.  

Then in October, he woke up in another mood.  He was like him old self that was scary.  He mentioned divorce because I obviously don’t care about him (you know, asking him to do dishes, laundry, etc at home when I am working full time and he’s not working at all is too much for him).  I told him fine, I was done trying.  He turned crazy.  He very calmly told me that if I proceeded with the divorce he would take everything from me that I loved.  That he would make me feel like I wanted to die and to really think about what that means.  I took that as a threat on the kids lives.  I was trying to pack up and leave but he wouldn’t quit following me around the house.  I went into our bathroom and locked the door to call my Dad and ask him to come get us.  H picked the lock and came in and asked who I was taking to, wouldn’t leave me alone, etc.  My dad called the cops, H left before they got there and I packed up some stuff and left.  H didn’t remember this incident the next day (supposedly) and made all of these promises about changing, etc.  Me and the kids lived out of the house for a month and then stupidly moved back in.  He was in treatment, he was attending support group meetings, he was apologetic and I thought maybe we can make this work.  

And here I am today – the emotional abuse is ramping back up and I just realized in the last couple of weeks that it is ABUSE.  He is stomping on every boundry that I have set up.  If I tell him how I feel about anything, I am selfish because he has an illness and I should be understanding.  He doesn’t want to have to apologize for any symptoms of his illness anymore.  And now he’s gaslighting me again about the last time I left.  According to him I completely overreacted, makes me question the events in my mind.  I finally realized that he was gaslighting me.  I kept a journal last year and went back and re-read it.  It’s so obvious now to me what he is doing.  The emotional abuse really ramped up after the Christmas incident.  And now I am also to blame for how poorly his mental state is currently in because I have threatened to abandon him multiple times now.  I’m a bad person for doing that and completely justifies how he treats me now.

Plan:
I have a consultation with an attorney today.  We have no more assets (thankfully!) as we sold our house in January.  The only thing we have left are debts.  I’m going to talk over with my lawyer what I want to propose to H and hopefully retain him to file the paperwork ASAP.  H has an appointment with his Psychologist tomorrow that he wants me to go to with him.  So she can help him stay calm while he explains to me how he doesn’t agree with what happened when the cops were called (his words).  And maybe she can help us communicate better.  I’m thinking about agreeing to go and telling him there that I want a divorce.  Ask him to move out of the house, give him a list of all our debts so he can take that to a lawyer for a consultation on his own.  Then I would like to leave and not engage in any of the emotional conversation.  What do you think?  

[Lovely Life]

Hi everyone.  I am very thankful to have found this website.  This is going to be long I’m afraid.  I just wanted to introduce myself and ask for help in if my exit plan looks okay or if there are any suggestions or things I’m not seeing. I have been married to my husband for almost 12 years (together for 15).  We have two children (9 and 5).  I have known from the beginning when we started dating that Husband had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder but it never seemed to fit completely.  I have done so much research on bipolar disorder, been to doctor appointments, counseling sessions, etc. over the years.  I have been an active participant in trying to get him treated.  It wasn’t until just recently that I started looking into borderline personality and really seems to fit him.  He has been seeing a new doctor for about 6 months and she mentioned it about a month ago.  (Although, H told me she said a personality disorder, not necessarily borderline).  

I have tried to leave our relationship three times in the last three years.  Each time I do, he threatens suicide and/or cries about how he doesn’t have anyone else in his life.  He’s recently starting threatening to just leave the state and abandon the kids if I do want a divorce.  That one always gets me.  I take some time to pause, the next day he promises he’ll do better/be better.  Can I please just ride with him through this illness?  He doesn’t understand how I can leave him when he is so sick.  I feel bad and tell myself that I’m being selfish and make myself try to stay in the relationship again.  But it gets worse every single time.  You can skip the next few paragraphs if you don’t want the long version:

The first time I told him I wanted to leave after he and I got into a disagreement and he threatened suicide.  I was so terrified I felt like I couldn’t leave the house, he told me if I called 911 all it would do is get cops killed because he would go out shooting.  He has threatened suicide multiple times in the past but that one really hit me and I realized that I didn’t want to feel like that anymore.  I told him that I couldn’t handle it anymore, he seemed to understand, I took the kids and spent the weekend with my parents and came back home on Sunday night as we didn’t really have a plan to separate.  H begged me to give him another chance, go to the doctor with him that next week so he could request something to pull him out of his deep dark stupor.  I agreed.  His doctor prescribed ADD stimulants which lead to him abusing those for the next 2 years.  Anytime I had an issue with his abuse of those meds, it became my fault.  I was going to leave him because he was sick and this is what he had to do to get me to stay.  (guilt)

The second time – on Christmas Eve 2016 he got drunk (after being sober for 3.5 years) at my parents house.  We have an hour drive home (I was driving) and as soon as we left he started verbally assaulting me in front of our children.  Calling me names, telling me I was stupid, that if I was a man, he’d punch me, etc.  About half way home I told him he was not coming home with us, that I would drop him off at his brothers house.  He went crazy.  Unbuckled his seat belt and as I was driving 65 MPH down the road, threw the car in neutral and grabbed the wheel to make me pull over.  I was terrified, the kids were terrified.  I grabbed my phone to call 911 but he ripped it from my hands and refused to give it back.  We were in the middle of nowhere at 10:00 PM.  I told him I wouldn’t drive until he gave me my phone, he told me that if I didn’t drive, he would drag me out to the cornfield and bury me and that him and the kids would go home without me.  I panicked and drove to the next town that had an open gas station and made him get out of the car.  He told the kids that he was going to jail and it was all my fault.  Told me that I might as well kill him now because he will die in jail, etc.  Promised that if I drove him to his brothers he would stay there.  So I agreed to do that, he got in the car, continued with the verbal abuse and telling the kids all of those same things about how this is all my fault, etc.  I finally drop him off at his brother’s house, he gets out and gets all calm like nothing happened.  Wants to know why I’m acting so crazy and blowing everything out of proportion.  I drive away, try to comfort the kids the rest of the way home (30 minutes).  We get home, I lock all of the doors so he can’t get in.  We are home for 5 minutes and his brother brought him home!  I refuse to let him in the house so he broke the glass door out front so he could use his key in the door.  I call 911, cops come, they can’t do anything because the house is in both of our names.  They get him to leave and go to a hotel for the night.  Long story short – I was traumatized, kids were traumatized.  He came home the next day full of apologies but also digs about how I’m equally responsible for what happened.  If I had just left him alone, it wouldn’t have escalated.  If I would have just let him in the house to sleep it off, it wouldn’t have escalated.  I finally asked him to leave 5 months later.  He moved out for the summer and seemed like he had “changed”.  He received a PTSD diagnosis prior to him moving out and made me feel guilty for not being involved in his treatment.  He’s changed for the better, why can’t I see it, etc.  Making me question my recollection of Christmas Eve (He never jerked the wheel, only put his hand on it to scare me.  Nobody was ever in danger.  I should understand that he can’t control himself when he’s like that.  Get treatment and move on, stop punishing met, etc.)

I let him move back in August after telling him officially that I wanted a divorce.  He went to the hospital that night to check into the psych ward, had the hospital call me, they evaluated him and let him leave.  He was heartbroken because now he has no one.  I have family and friends, he doesn’t.  He’s losing my family, etc.  I felt bad for him and let him stay at the house (stupid) and he turned on the charm.  Apologized for everything that had happened.  Admitted he was 100% in the wrong, could I Please give him another chance.  The kids deserve to have us both in their lives, etc.  I stupidly agreed.
He was good for awhile and then started slipping into his poor me routine.  

Then in October, he woke up in another mood.  He was like him old self that was scary.  He mentioned divorce because I obviously don’t care about him (you know, asking him to do dishes, laundry, etc at home when I am working full time and he’s not working at all is too much for him).  I told him fine, I was done trying.  He turned crazy.  He very calmly told me that if I proceeded with the divorce he would take everything from me that I loved.  That he would make me feel like I wanted to die and to really think about what that means.  I took that as a threat on the kids lives.  I was trying to pack up and leave but he wouldn’t quit following me around the house.  I went into our bathroom and locked the door to call my Dad and ask him to come get us.  H picked the lock and came in and asked who I was taking to, wouldn’t leave me alone, etc.  My dad called the cops, H left before they got there and I packed up some stuff and left.  H didn’t remember this incident the next day (supposedly) and made all of these promises about changing, etc.  Me and the kids lived out of the house for a month and then stupidly moved back in.  He was in treatment, he was attending support group meetings, he was apologetic and I thought maybe we can make this work.  

And here I am today – the emotional abuse is ramping back up and I just realized in the last couple of weeks that it is ABUSE.  He is stomping on every boundry that I have set up.  If I tell him how I feel about anything, I am selfish because he has an illness and I should be understanding.  He doesn’t want to have to apologize for any symptoms of his illness anymore.  And now he’s gaslighting me again about the last time I left.  According to him I completely overreacted, makes me question the events in my mind.  I finally realized that he was gaslighting me.  I kept a journal last year and went back and re-read it.  It’s so obvious now to me what he is doing.  The emotional abuse really ramped up after the Christmas incident.  And now I am also to blame for how poorly his mental state is currently in because I have threatened to abandon him multiple times now.  I’m a bad person for doing that and completely justifies how he treats me now.

Plan:
I have a consultation with an attorney today.  We have no more assets (thankfully!) as we sold our house in January.  The only thing we have left are debts.  I’m going to talk over with my lawyer what I want to propose to H and hopefully retain him to file the paperwork ASAP.  H has an appointment with his Psychologist tomorrow that he wants me to go to with him.  So she can help him stay calm while he explains to me how he doesn’t agree with what happened when the cops were called (his words).  And maybe she can help us communicate better.  I’m thinking about agreeing to go and telling him there that I want a divorce.  Ask him to move out of the house, give him a list of all our debts so he can take that to a lawyer for a consultation on his own.  Then I would like to leave and not engage in any of the emotional conversation.  What do you think?  

[flourdust]

Hi, and welcome!
 

It sounds like you're making preparations -- when you consult with the attorney, you should definitely ask about your plan and the steps you want to take. Are you concerned he is going to act out when you tell him? What might the repercussions of that be?

[ForeverDad]

Him being diagnosed with Bipolar in the past is not hard to imagine, it was well known that insurance generally wouldn't pay for Borderline, seen as fruitless, but would pay for Bipolar.  However, Bipolar is a chemical imbalance and meds help address it rather well.  On the other hand, Borderline is a personality disorder, meds can moderate the behaviors but therapy is the critical part to address the behaviors and self-centered world view.  Typically DBT or CBT is the preferred therapy, but it can't be done haphazardly or done in just a few sessions.  It needs to be diligently applied in one's life, thinking and perceptions over years.

That's why his promises didn't last, they weren't followed by determined actions such as meaningful therapy and dedicated personal application.

While some have managed to find a middle ground where the marriage could continue with strong boundaries, most here decided the relationship was too dysfunctional and unhealthy, with divorce the result.  It wasn't that we were quick to give up, it's that we Accepted the other just wasn't improving.  So don't feel too bad about facing divorce, you did try, you tried for many years, no one can fault you for trying so hard.

Boundaries are essential.  Every healthy relationship has boundaries, it's just that ours need even stronger boundaries.  It took me a while to figure out what that meant.  It's not "You must do ___ or not do ___."  People with BPD (pwBPD) don't respect boundaries, at least not consistently and they often try to crush them so they can go back to what feels 'normal' to them, their comfort zone.  So a better approach is, "If you do/don't do ___ then I will ___."  The point is that though you may not be able to tell ex what to do, you can tell yourself how to respond, with your boundary.  An example is, "If you rant or rage (or whatever) then I will take the kids and leave until you have calmed done."  You have removed yourself from the poor behaviors and maybe, eventually, he will accept that boundary.  If not, then at least you will save yourself and your children from some of the chaos and blaming.

[BeagleGirl]

Welcome Lovely Life,
I'm so sorry you are going through all of this, but I am very glad to see that you have a plan of action.

Based on the history that you describe, I think that you can request that he leave the house but you should be prepared to take the kids and leave.  Do you have an emergency departure kit (let us know if you don't know what should be in it)?  Do you have access to funds?  Do you have a safe place to stay?

I'm glad that you are recognizing what your husband is doing as abuse.  I found the book "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft incredibly helpful.  It's easy to go back to believing that you bear responsibility for what he is doing, so shining a light on what behaviors constitute abuse and the power plays and manipulation behind them will be important.  I remember when it dawned on me that our dynamics fit the abuse cycle perfectly and that I could pretty accurately predict even the timing of the cycles.  Then I felt like an idiot for not recognizing it and for believing him and going back through the same cycle over and over.  But I so wanted the promises to be true THIS time. 

The hardest part is dealing with the guilt.  It's only in the past month or so that I have emotionally released responsibility for my dBPDxh's actions and well being, and I know it is still all too easy to fall into that pattern again, especially when I feel like it will impact my kids.  Keep posting here.  We are happy to sympathize with you and help you as you try to see things more clearly.

BeagleGirl

[livednlearned]

I'm so glad you're safe! The car incident sounds awful, and breaking glass to reach through and open the door -- I can only imagine how terrified you and the kids felt. My heart goes out to you, Lovely Life.

He knows what to say to keep you put, but can't seem to take the steps he needs to make you want to be there.

I found the book "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft incredibly helpful.

Me too  Mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse. I believe there's a whole chapter on that in the book.

My ex was bipolar/BPD too, and had a problem with alcohol. That's a pretty tough trinity of issues, especially with kids involved.

Doing what is right to protect yourself and the kids is relatively easy, it's the emotional conviction to follow through that's tough. Especially when your H uses guilt to control your emotions. And threatens suicide.

The psychologist will likely tell you ways you need to change how you communicate with your H, which is a hard pill to swallow after the trauma you've experienced. The communication skills can be helpful prior to an escalation, or to help prevent things from getting worse. But communication won't stop him from going into a psychotic rage or full-blown emotional dysregulation. For that you need strategic boundaries.

"When x happens, I will do y."

Or

"I will not drive in a car with you. If we go to see so-and-so, I ask that you take a separate car."

Or

"I will call 911 when you threaten suicide. I do not have the skills to assess suicidal ideation, nor do I have the skills to support you and keep you safe, especially if you believe my actions are triggering those thoughts."

If the psychologist is good, you will hopefully spend more time talking about safety plans for when your H is dysregulated.

On that note, it probably is not safe to share any information with him about the divorce at this point. When and if you decide to leave, have a safety plan for how you will respond to him (in the event he has suicidal ideation) and one for you and the kids (in the event he tries to hurt the three of you).

Are you or the kids in therapy to help you with what's going on?

I'm glad you found the site, and so sorry for what brings you here

Keep sharing, it really does help.

You are not alone.

LnL

[ForeverDad]

"I will call 911 when you threaten suicide. I do not have the skills to assess suicidal ideation, nor do I have the skills to support you and keep you safe, especially if you believe my actions are triggering those thoughts."

This is hard to do.  We try to avoid consequences, worrying what it will do to the spouse if we report it.  Suicidal talk (ideation) is a serious matter.  Maybe it's a threat against himself or maybe a threat to control or manipulate you.  The professionals do not consider you an expert to decide which.  (Though the majority of us are pretty sure our threats were the second type, meant to pressure us.)  So do call 911 if that happens.  Often if they decide to proceed they'll do a 72 hour evaluation.

However, a caution.  It is a near certainty that the spouse will Deny ever making suicidal comments to the responding police or paramedics.  (After all, he didn't think that what was said in private would be told to professionals, virtual strangers, at the door.)  So be prepared to verify what he said.  If you say one thing and he says the opposite, with neither of you having proof, the responders could walk away.  Is it in texts or emails from him?  Was the incident, um, recorded?  These days there are so many devices that can record.  (Warning, waving a recorder, camera or phone in his face could trigger other overreactions so probably best to record on the down low.)