Interesting email...do I even respond at all?

[formflier]

I'll try not to put much detail into explanation.  She did ask about her foot and pointed to a spot she said hurt.  I fixed that spot.  Said something about doing more tomorrow.  I was up an hour past bedtime and barely functioning.  perhaps and hour and a half.  It appears she stormed out after I put on my sleep gear, went upstairs and sent this. 

She left the room muttering and grumping.

She apparently slept somewhere else.

FF

FF, I asked you tonight to use a file and file the crack off my heel... .You filed for a minute or maybe two... .Then quit and went to bed. You continually leave and no one knows where you have gone or even knew you left.  Today I walked into the bedroom without saying a  word while you were on the phone and you got up and went into the office... .I came out into the kitchen and you went back into the bedroom... .I came into the bedroom to change and you walked out and went back into the office... .
The whole summer we haven't spent much time together... .have we even done anything together? I asked you this morning where you see yourself in a year... .5 years? Important question as I started working to make ends meet until you found a job. Your answer was something along the lines of 'I'll be doing the best I can and something about 'being a good Steward of your body'.  You accused me of not listening when I said you did not answer my question.  Just want to ask what your intentions are here... .Our marriage is not fun, not warm, when you don't spend time with your  spouse it becomes distant and cold.  Just want to know your intentions here... .  Love, (just FFw first initial)

[Notwendy]

FF - this is what I call making meaning out of something you do that is not the same as what you intended. Remember the hotel dressing incident I wrote about- I ran into the bathroom to  cover up when dressing because I could not see my H coming into the hotel room and thought it might be housekeeping. My H thought I saw him and was avoiding him- rejecting him. This had nothing to do with what I was thinking but he assumed it was true.

The good thing about this e mail is that your wife is sharing her side of things, but she is at least reaching out to clarify. For my H, he assumed he was correct and didn't speak to me. That made it impossible to clarify because I had no idea what was going on. Your wife's version isn't your version, but you have the opportunity to use SET, to clarify.

It's clear you were tired. Also when she walked in and you were on the phone, you probably left the room to focus on the call without distraction. When my H walks into a room, and I walk out, he assumes I am creating distance from him. ( back to the dressing incident) but I can have a different reason for walking out and you do too.

So try the SET idea but don't JADE. E mail back. Good morning honey, I just saw your e mail. I see that you have concerns about our relationship. Would you like to set a time when we can talk about it?  Love, FF. When you do, let her vent- let her get all her feelings out. It's pretty amazing when you can actually sit and listen even if it is off base. After she gets the feelings out- that is the time for clarification, briefly. "Honey, I was tired and didn't understand what you wanted me to do for your foot. I am sorry that upset you".

Don't JADE, don't get into who is right or wrong here. This is how she feels. The foot incident upset her. Then she is kitchen sinking with the rest of it.

[Notwendy]

Important question as I started working to make ends meet until you found a job.


This is kitchen sinking, but it is something that bothers her and seems to be a part of her issues with you. "until you find a job" sounds like she expected her working to be temporary. However, you now receive disability and perhaps a job is not in your plans. I know that your income from other sources is significant and her job helps too.

I don't suggest resolving this by having her not work. The reality is that, the kids are going to need her home less and less. I spent some time as a stay at home mom, but also realized that is a "temporary" job. Kids grow up. It's a blessing to her to have a job she is good at and can continue as the kids grow. Teaching is really an almost perfect schedule. Yet, she has a resentment over this. This is aside from the foot incident, but I think it needs discussions as her feelings are driving her to resent what could be a good situation for her, beyond the finances.

[formflier]

Thanks... .good stuff... .it really helps me organize a "healthy" response.

FF

[formflier]

Email sent.

Good morning honey, I just saw your email.  I see that you have concerns about our relationship.  Would you like to set a time when we can talk about it?

Today should calm down for me after 4 or 5pm.

Love,

FF

[formflier]

So... .I walked out of the morning conversation about my plans for 5 years from now.  That was a couple days ago.

We are about 50/50 for nice morning conversations.  Let's say over the past month or so.

Anyway... .she starts asking about "where I see myself" and I would get one or two sentences out and then she would start talking.

I would stop... listen.  Verify and validate what she was asking.  1 or 2 sentences and she would start talking again.

Perhaps the 3rd go round I said this sounds important to her and it's important to me that you hear and understand how I see it, even if you don't agree with it or I'm not answering in the way that you want.

Grump hiss not answering my question.

I let her know I was up to talk further when we can listen and understand each other, vice be dismissive of what the other is saying.  (I didn't say you were being dismissive... .but she got the point)

For instance, when I would say "doing my best to steward my body... " she would start talking and say "we all have to do that, so you are not answering my question"... .(instead of something like "How does that answer my question?"

Anyway... .the "base issue" is... ."is FF disabled or not"  She says no.  She has some people at church telling her no.  There are NO credentialed medical professionals that even "hint" that I can work.  In other words... .slam dunk, not even close.

I've complained/reported "inside" the local church and gotten nowhere, even though what they have done is a clear violation of "their own ethical standards" (yes... they have written down that they should only opine about the Bible and leave medicine to professionals).  Yet it my case... .

Anyway... .I've written to the national governing body to file a formal complaint.  I'm early in that process.  No idea where that will go.

So... .with that background info, I do have empathy for why a paranoid wife might think her disabled husband isn't really disabled.  "Because God told her so, through the local church."

However... .how on earth do I have any productive conversation about this?

FF

[GaGrl]

Yes, it's been moving toward this fundamental question for awhile.

FFW does not believe you are disabled.  You don't "look" disabled.  She sees you being a good steward of your body -- managing your sleep, exercise, body movement, physical and mental and emotional stress, etc. -- and you appear balanced and "whole."  She becomes upset when all of this gets out of kilter (the store/parking lot incident).  She does not understand or admit to what you have to do to keep the machine running.  On top of this, she has her Biblical authorities backing her up.

So you made an agreement, and the circumstances underlying that agreement have changed.

Time to clarify the path forward.

What are you thinking about how that conversation will go?

[formflier]

So you made an agreement, and the circumstances underlying that agreement have changed.

Time to clarify the path forward.
 

There NEVER was any agreement of the kind she believes.  That is complete history rewriting.

She "believes" that she has to work until I get a job... at which point she quits and stays home the rest of her days.

The truth of the matter is that we were considering a move.  There were many benefits to the move, I have to say I was in agreement and even was an instigator (from certain respects) for the move.  The state we live in treats their disabled veterans really... .really well.

Basically... all of my children get 4 years college free at a state school (this is over and above any federal benefits).

So... .given 8 children, given unsure work prospects for my future... .8 times cost of college education makes a lot of fiscal sense.

Anyway... .there are costs in a move and we didn't own property there.  My wife said that she would apply for a job and we could take some of that as "God's will".   That we wouldn't move until she got a job.  She also understood this as "likely permanent" based on deteriorating health (mine).

She was snapped up quickly by the school system, the rest of the family followed over Christmas break.  By and large the move has been a positive thing for the family.  I was aware there would be "heavy swells" because we would be closer to her FOO.  There were... .I've chosen to be estranged from them.

I've offered to have a conversation about my medical status with my wife and my medical providers.  She has refused to attend any appointment of any kind in... .certainly over a year... probably closer to 2 years... or 1.5 years.

She "prays for me" to stop attending any secular treatment of any kind.

Basically... I don't engage on it and take care of myself.

So... .I really don't have a plan.  

I suppose my next big "milestone" is to see what the national governing body has to say about my complaint.

Given the "me too" movement and the "patterson indicent" I can't believe they will back their local church.  If they do... they'll be "crucified" for stupidity in the press and/or however I choose to further add light to this.

If you are not aware...

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/may/paige-patterson-fired-southwestern-baptist-seminary-sbc.html

"patterson incident"

This has been heavily talked about in the local church and in the national body.  What they say they do publicly does not at all match what they have done privately in my case.  It's not a matter of nuance or misunderstanding.

I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get there... .


FF

[Fian]

I think you may want to address this:
"Our marriage is not fun, not warm, when you don't spend time with your  spouse it becomes distant and cold."

I imagine her feelings there are really valid.  It isn't even a BPD thing.  When a marriage gets strained, and the spouses start to look at each other negatively, this is often the result.  She is expressing a desire for more of a connection, which is a natural thing to want in these circumstances.

[formflier]

'Calm down for you'? What exactly does that mean... .I suppose if you communicated to me what is happening in your life I would have an idea... .You don't have a job or class right now so what does 'calm down for you' mean? I have had time all summer... .now I am needing to be back in my classroom some each day to get ready for the school year. Whatever you have spent your time on is your priority... .it certainly hasn't been our marriage. I am at swim lessons with the kids... .Just started today... .I will be here on Thursday from 10 - 11:30 as well... .Let's talk then... .We can find a quiet spot or talk by the pool.

to which I responded

So... this coming Thursday, you want to find time to chat during swim lessons?  I was under the impression from what the swim lady told me, that we had to be in the pool area.

That sounds very distracting to me.

I suggest we find time when we are both at our best (not hungry, tired... etc etc).  For me, I think I should be able to focus on something after 4 or 5 today. 

Until then I expect to be juggling phone calls and trying to move issues forward, many of which I find very frustrating and resistant to being "moved forward".

Love,

FF

[formflier]

This was also kinda tossed out there by her... .

Note... .she DOES NOT do this.  She expects me to do it and her not to

Fyi... .Being busy does not prevent a husband from the common courtesy of saying ' hey babe I am leaving to go... .'
Love, FFw

[BetterLanes]

This was also kinda tossed out there by her... .

Note... .she DOES NOT do this.  She expects me to do it and her not to

Hi Formflier,

I know this isn't the main point of the discussion, only the starting point, but... .feet? I probably have only half a dozen explicit boundaries in my marriage and the non-provision of foot-related services makes it onto that select list. Is this a normal thing for her to ask you for or for you to ask her for? I'm just wondering if it could have been one of those "s**t tests" that Red5 mentioned the other day. For me it would have been. I know the discussion has gone a long way beyond that now, though.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

My wife got a license as a nail technician... .early in our marriage and in a different state.  She used it to make some side money for a while.

I was her "subject" that she practiced on and I returned the favor.  It's been something that we've done over the years and never really thought about it... but enjoyed it.

We have to heated soaking trays, heated liquid wax... basically all the things you would get at a spa... .we sometimes do at home.

Or in the bath together.

So... I didn't think a thing of it.  I suppose I should have made it more clear that I didn't have time for a full foot deal, but she pointed at a spot that was bothering her and she did have a crack or hole there.

I at first suggested I put neosporin and a band aid on it and let's check in the morning.  She said she thought it was just from cracking... .vice a wound.

Turns out she was right (duh... she is the nail tech)... .I removed the dead/callous area and the hole disappeared... .she kinda said it was better.

I put on my gear and went to sleep... .she stormed out.  I'll be honest... .I can't recall exactly what I said or she said (it was muttering on the way out)... .but I said something along the lines of taking care of her later.

I don't believe she directly responded... .so... no idea what she heard.

Note: EXACTLY why you don't do this  an hour or two after my bedtime.  I shoot for 10pm, earlier if I've had rough nights prior.

FF

[formflier]

So... .I can over-explain anything... right?   

FF

[Cat Familiar]

When your kids are sick or injured, she's OK with taking them to the doctor?

I think of cases where parents who believe in faith healing were criminally prosecuted when their children died or sustained serious consequences.

So she believes the doctors when it comes to your kids, but somehow she dismisses their opinion when it comes to you?

And does she go to the doctor herself? If so, why?

I know it does little good to show pwBPD or pwPPD their utter contradictions in their belief systems, but perhaps there's a subtle way that she can be led to having an aha moment.

[Red5]

Afternoon FF,

Taking a few minutes from work here, and I saw your thread… here is my two cents,

My first wife used to want me to trim her toenails, rub her feet (heels), and a myriad of other “things”.

Mrs. Red5, no, no way… only the occasional back scratch, and maybe a back rub now and again… much less so since our “dating daze”.

So no issues / requirements there.

Every once in a while, its “let’s take a shower” and you (Red5) can scrub my back, that’s cool  ... .

When we are on “speaking terms”, we do announce over the 1MC when we depart, or arrive across the quarterdeck, but when its ST condition “zebra”… the “I’m going to town, to the hardware store for railroad spikes, and 5-inch anti-aircraft shells dear, do you want me to pick up anything"… is NOT practiced, she’ll even go up town, get her a sack lunch, and come back home and eat it in front of me … and won’t utter a word the entire time (evolution)… in these cases, events, I practice “disciplined indifference”.

We do try to do things together sometimes, but most times, .I hear the “we NEVER have date night anymore”… and I think to myself, “that is because you are being a crank again”… one time, we went to the new Italian joint downtown, as she doesn’t do seafood (we live in the fisherman’s paradise)… so we ordered, and I ordered spaghetti, because I like spaghetti, so that’s what I ordered, so she starts reading the menu to me, this and that, and you should try this or that… then the waiter came for our order, and she ordered the x-y-z… and then I started to tell the waiter I wanted spaghetti, she interrupts (tried to), but I managed to get the order out, and onto the waiters pad… and the waiter departed… she said, why didn’t you try the x-y-z, or the p-d & q… on and on she went... finally, I said (succinctly)… I ordered what I wanted, and quickly redirected her to “would you like some more wine", .and "would you please pass the bread, and olive oil"… (u/BPDw) she actually got “grumpy” at me for NOT ordering something besides my fav; spaghetti… yeah, “grumpy" + date night = liberty secured!

My u/BPDw also gave me a hard time about my “next career’ after I retired from the USMC… she was working at the time, a good state job, for almost ten years; but since she has gotten C, she resigned… but I am still working, in fact six+ years into another federal job, I intend to work as long as I’m able, but I too have a degree of disabilities due to lifting heavy things onto airplanes for over twenty + years… but it’s a good job, and I enjoy it... .and it’s in the same line of work, but now I am “administrative” and civil service, vice a "beast of burden"…

Udx/BPDw does not desire to go back to work, so sometimes I do “rewind” all (one-way) discussions we had together on the back porch back about seven years ago, about me needing to get right back to work… long before I ever knew what BPD was, and I thought “it was me”… hmmm, 

Our marriage is not fun, not warm, when you don't spend time with your spouse it becomes distant and cold.

Ok, I hear about the same thing a lot myself… but it does strike me, that is only seems applicable when it’s happening to her (?), and NOT when its happening to me, again… “disciplined indifference”… I have learnt that seeking to correct the record is indeed futile, so I don’t do it anymore… I just let it go… I like what Notwendy said… about “kitchen sinking”… I also have a word(s) for this, and I call this “emotional reasoning”.

I think you are on the right track FF,

Have you ever seen the movie “Terminal”, with Tom Hanks… I like the part where the old Indian man, Kumar Pallana's character Gupta Rajan... .who is a custodian in the airport terminal… and he says when Hank's character; Victor Navorksi comes to “dig through his trash bin”, he says…”do you have an appointment”… I LOVE THAT ! ha ha ha !

https://www.you.tube.com/watch?v=KfBslt6N0S8

Yeah, (Mrs. Red5)… I can see you upset, but “do you have an appointment”…  !

www.hark.com/clips/rtspplqwst-do-you-have-an-appointment

Ha Ha Ha... .but be nice ! 

Hang in there FF, you are on glideslope, the decks pitching, but you got plenty of gas, to make as many passes at the deck that you want to… and it’s moonlit night too !… so click on your lip light, and read your kneeboard checklist… *SET, *validate, *empathy… wash-rinse-repeat… now reset the MASTER CAUTION light, and go around again… make your best moves   !

Red5

[formflier]

When your kids are sick or injured, she's OK with taking them to the doctor?

 
So she believes the doctors when it comes to your kids, but somehow she dismisses their opinion when it comes to you?

And does she go to the doctor herself? If so, why?

I know it does little good to show pwBPD or pwPPD their utter contradictions in their belief systems, but perhaps there's a subtle way that she can be led to having an aha moment.

We are pretty liberal about going to the doctor... .as in we are pretty quick to go.  The point of doing that is we want to know quickly if a sore throat is strep... .or "just" a sore throat.

Then we start decontamination/quarantine procedures.

She is quite adept at sidestepping the issue and coming up with reasons why she can't attend.  The is intentional about creating "plausible deniability".

If she isn't in the room to hear it... .I guess it never happened.

Then... .the reason social security gave me disability was that I "sued them until they did" (um... no idea where she came up with that).  I did have a lawyer involved that specialized in social security law, but his job was to organize and "point out" to the judge what the records said.

The judge brought in an "outside expert" that agreed with the argument made by my lawyer... "yep... they say what they say... " (they being medical records... signed by... doctors... hmmm)

Anyway... .somehow she glosses over some of the details. m

I understand her speach has nothing to do with details... .so I don't engage.

There are a number of issues I express willingness to discuss in the office with the appropriate doctor... .and she never expresses interest... .so I leave the door open but don't insist she walk through it.

How she sorts all that out... .I have no idea.  None.

My best guess is some kind of fear response about her husband not being able to provide or no being a big strong guy anymore... or something.

It's hard to explain, but I can still do a lot of things, it's just not smart to do it very often.  I'm also very focused on what "my body tells me"... .and when I hear stop... .I almost always do.

Funny thing... .I have far less pain that way.

FF

[formflier]

I'm all good with other people staying away from the foot thing.

My wife and I have healthy feet... .and I enjoy doing it and enjoy getting it.

My best guess is my wife's reaction had nothing to do with feet... she wanted me awake and with her... .I went to sleep.  She "interpreted" that in her own lens... .which is most likely evil somehow.

Oh... to the what do I say before I leave thing.  My standing offer is that I will do unto her as she does unto me, because I really don't care.

So... .she can demonstrate to me the type and kind of "notifications" she wants and I will mirror that.

She will figure out that is pain in the a$$ and drop this for a while.  It's a pretty standard thing she comes up with, not at all tied to how much I actually "announce" where I'm going.

I've actually used the calendar and tracked... . More "announcing" seems to remind her that I don't announce enough... and pisses her off more...  (whatever... )

FF

[BetterLanes]

Okay great, so you guys are at the other end of the foot involvement spectrum clearly. No worries

makes note to talk to T regarding the foot thing

BetterLanes x

[Enabler]

Since you have a bit of email tennis going on. Would it be possible for you to put out there that some of these ongoing unresolved issues are getting you down and acting as barriers to you wanting closeness with her. Ask her directly to full clarify once and for all her position on bullet point issues... .

- Do you think I am faking my disability, if so what evidence do you have for this?
- Do you think I am a fraudulent Christian?
- Do you think I am out to hurt you or do things intentionally to hurt your feelings?
- Do you believe I am ________

There seems to be a whole pile of issues that never get resolved.

Impress on her that you desire a once and for all resolution of her stance and you're happy to do the same on any questions she has... .in writing, for all to see. No more sniping, full disclosure.

I know this isn't a long term solution but for a time at least it's a put up or shut up... .and she's the one that misses closeness and connection.

[Notwendy]

My parents don't have a problem with seeking medical care. They have no interest in "faith healing". My mother understood my father's medical condition, yet she still didn't believe that he couldn't do things. She assumed that he was not doing them on purpose- to be mean to her ( victim mode).

I don't think this is due to religious thinking. I think it is part of the distorted thinking of BPD and victim mode. I've mentioned that my BPD mother thought I threw up on purpose when I was a toddler. That's ridiculous. Toddlers throw up when they have a stomach ache, not on purpose.

My father's illness changed the dynamics in the relationship. He was the rescuer, the provider,  the emotional caretaker. When he couldn't do all the things he used to do, this left my mother emotionally uncomfortable. She doesn't recognize the feelings as hers, she assumes he did it to her.

FF - your wife is in a situation she didn't want to be in. It may also be socially uncomfortable for her. I know many families in your type of church denomination where the husband has a job, and wife is home with kids, often homeschooling them. IMHO, it isn't the only arrangement that works for a family but it seems to be the chosen one for some churches. In a different church, she may be around women who have careers, but if this is the predominant arrangement in her church, then it may feel uncomfortable to her and she blames this on you.

It is magical thinking,  but she assumes you could change the situation if you wanted to. My mother also assumed that if my father wanted to, he'd jump out of bed and run errands for her. He did want to, but he physically could not. She couldn't see that.

I'm sure you do plenty for the family during the day but in your wife's state of resentment, she may not be able to see it.

[Red5]

Good Moring FF,

My best guess is my wife's reaction had nothing to do with feet... she wanted me awake and with her... .I went to sleep.  She "interpreted" that in her own lens... .which is most likely evil somehow.

I am interpreting this as “emotional reasoning” on the part of Mrs. FF,

Oh... to the what do I say before I leave thing.  My standing offer is that I will do unto her as she does unto me, because I really don't care.

Like elections; actions/words/temperament also have “consequences” in a close (1V1) relationship,

So... .she can demonstrate to me the type and kind of "notifications" she wants and I will mirror that.

I call this letting her (Red5’s udx/BPD wife), “set the pace”, she wants it, she gets it (mirroring), by her actions.

She will figure out that is pain in the a$$ and drop this for a while.  It's a pretty standard thing she comes up with, not at all tied to how much I actually "announce" where I'm going.

Yeah, when it comes time for the significant other to partake of their own brew of kool-aid, then they get tired of it pretty quick, funny how that works.

I've actually used the calendar and tracked... .  More "announcing" seems to remind her that I don't announce enough... and pisses her off more...   (whatever... )

“(whatever... )” = disciplined indifference for me.

Cat wrote: I know it does little good to show pwBPD or pwPPD their utter contradictions in their belief systems, but perhaps there's a subtle way that she can be led to having an aha moment.

I replace “aha” with “ha ha ha”, at the pw/BPD’s expense!

If you can’t smile and laugh, in your head, under your breath, or silently, when BPD’ism’s are “on parade”… then you are in a tough place, humor is survival to me.

Red5

 

[formflier]

Okay great, so you guys are at the other end of the foot involvement spectrum clearly. No worries

makes note to talk to T regarding the foot thing

BetterLanes x

 

Hey... .in general... .I think it is wise to be a bit shy about "the foot thing" until you are sure you know what you are dealing with.

Let's just say there is a reason nail technicians  have to get a license.  There is a huge section on what stuff looks like that you "don't touch" and send to the doctor.

It was an icky part of the book... .

Perhaps that's why my wife and I are so "high maintenance" now about "foot care"

My guess is that you would think our feet look "almost perfect"... .yet we are complaining and moaning about some spot.

FF

[formflier]

- Do you think I am faking my disability, if so what evidence do you have for this?
- Do you think I am a fraudulent Christian?
- Do you think I am out to hurt you or do things intentionally to hurt your feelings?
- Do you believe I am ________
 

We've "been there" and "done that"... with multiple therapists.

Her answer is "how should I know?"  Complete deflection...

Yet... .she has no problem "knowing" when it is a malevolent accusation.  Upon reflection she will claim... "I wasn't making a judgment, just sharing my feelings... "

And it's somehow our fault for not understanding that and getting upset... at the time...

FF

[Enabler]

Have you linked those non-judgmental feelings to your lack of desire for closeness.

"Every time you non-judgmentally share you feelings that I am a fraud and do not have a disability, and am somehow faking it, I feel a lack of trust in our relationship. This feeling of a lack of trust drives a wedge between us and means I am reluctant to want to be close and intimate with you. Please share the evidence that I do not have a disability or that I am in anyway untrustworthy, if this evidence doesn't exist, learn to feel that I am the greatest man on the planet and treat me accordingly."