Question for all: Have you had any success with validating that you can recall?

[pearlsw]

Hey ya'll,

My last many vacations with my SO and his kids have been a lot more dramatic than I'd prefer, been pretty life-draining to be honest. My SO makes a lot of promises ahead of time of how this time/visit will be different, and I think he means that in a good way, but it's actually just gotten worse and worse. He can't ever seem to stick to the plans we set up to make things go well.

So, I went ahead and booked a vacation for myself, by myself. (He had already booked one with his kids without including me because of work conflicts, etc... ) I am so looking forward to some quiet time, though I know he can export drama pretty far and wide. We'll see... .I'd rather cross that bridge when I get to it than waste a lot of energy worrying about it.

I had a whole range of emotions today, deep sadness, anger, frustration with myself... .(he was pretty rotten to me last night) but I decided that I'd just do this and simply enjoy my life, if only a month at a time. (I'm gonna bask in the anticipation as much as the doing of it!) In a way it was good to have the emotions instead of the numbness that's been striking me a lot lately. (deep breath out here.)

I did bring this idea up with him awhile back, but he claims to not remember. But I weathered it. I was not asking permission. He got quiet actually as I told him about the trip... .He walked in while I was booking it. I took the time to validate, but was also firm as to why this is happening and he took it much better than expected. It won't always work, but it can make a difference to validate - that's for sure!

Have you had any success with validating that you can recall?

wishing you all happiness! pearl.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry, I've been out of the game long enough that I'm not able to think of a specific example, but validation has gotten me out of many a tight spot.  When I was on my "A" game, if I noticed my wife was upset, I would set down what I was doing and give her my full attention and validate.  I found that with her this worked best face-to-face, about five feet apart (like sitting on opposite ends of the couch, turned to face each other).

Validating emotions is super useful, and can always be done because emotions are always valid (someone can be upset about made up facts, but they are still upset).  Validating emotions is one of my favorite ways of employing partial validation, where you work hard to find a part of the person's position that you can agree with, and draw attention away from the part you can't agree with.

WW

[desperate.wife]

Congratulations on your vacation alone, pearl! Happy you can do it!
Validation is something I am very bad at. While I can understand others feelings, I have hard time validating actions that is simply not right, like washing clothes with everything in the pockets. So I check. And he feels like I am over watching, not trusting him, gets upset and defensive. These day's he is reacting calm to the remarks. I think doctor’s words about him lacking some everyday skills made an impact. He listens. But he has listened before. Just never remembers next time. And no matter how many times you say bread needs to be in a bag or it gets dry, or here we keep pans not bowls, he still keeps doing it. It is frustrating, and I used to confront him a lot. Now I get it is part of his condition and I try to pay less attention. It is all new to me.  I am thinking to put notes with instructions, reminders. He asked me once to put note to remind him to bring tea for me in bed, with instructions how to make my tea and how to prepare my breakfast. I didn't take it seriously. It has been 15 years together, 7 of which I take exactly the same breakfast, which I explained not once... .Annoying.

I guess what I need is to work not on how to validate but how not to invalidate. How to respond and explain smth in nice way, recognising the effort being made. And to do this all the time, not only when he feels bad.
Long time ago he was complaining that he had to redo dishes his roommate had washed. I feel like that all the time now.

[pearlsw]

Congratulations on your vacation alone, pearl! Happy you can do it!
Validation is something I am very bad at.

Hi desperate.wife,

Oh yes, I didn't realize how invalidating I could be in the past - not fully take account of his feelings. His feelings were strong and seemed so "odd" to me, and perhaps I was/am more logical than he is so I made a lot of mistakes. I wanted him to get over or not have his feelings I finally realized because it was a pain for me, and that wasn't working - it was very invalidating.

Now I also see that it helps when I acknowledge his feelings and am careful not to overwhelm him. There is no point repeating the same thing too many times just because I think he didn't hear it or get it. Short, simple direct communication is best.

We have language differences, we use English which is not his native language though he is quite good at it. But this kind of thing is ripe for miscommunication and misunderstanding. It takes a lot of patience. I am trying to switch us over to using one of his native languages more, for various reasons, but he is so used to speaking English with me and it is hard to change, but I think it might make an interesting change in our dynamic - and it could be more fun too I think.

One thing I did to help him/us, since he was receptive, was to write out some things he could say for when I speak, but he used to be silent, could not think of what to say. It made me feel not listened to. We were talking recently about other things I could write out to help him, but what they were is failing me now! I must ask again!

I get how frustrating it is to live with someone sometimes. I have one example. He never makes a bed, I always make the bed. It used to really frustrate me how he would not do this. Then I timed myself and saw how fast I do it and I realized it was nothing to waste any time being upset over. The amount of time to fix it versus be upset was a ratio that indicated me it was better to do it myself and to have a loving feeling about rather than be upset over it - ever. So, I do it very fast and I feel it is something I do that shows I care for him and that makes me feel better - and that is all it is, nothing more. It does not mean he does not care, or is messy. It isn't something he does. So I do it and choose to feel good about it rather than see it as his failing. It just isn't. He could bust me on plenty of other things I do or don't do so I just let this be.

Are there any things you could reinterpret and just let be, in order to focus on the more important, or simply fewer, things?

with compassion, pearl.

[pearlsw]

Validating emotions is one of my favorite ways of employing partial validation, where you work hard to find a part of the person's position that you can agree with, and draw attention away from the part you can't agree with.

WW

Hi WW,

Thanks for mentioning this strategy of partial validation. It is helpful because I think a lot of us want to put a wall up when we hear insults. It takes a lot to cut through the packaging sometimes to the core of the want or need someone is expressing, but when you can slow down and listen past that you might find something to validate! Sure!

I actually had time to practice a bit with him about expressing his needs in a more positive way - how he can simply say he "wants to spend more time with me" instead of burning the whole relationship to the ground. When he is calm I show him how such sentences are constructed.

It may be too late for us, but nevertheless, to my last minute I want to try to be positive and make the best of things. It is hard for me to ever give up on the notion that a person can improve, especially as he is at least willing to try, which I know not a lot of folks partners are.

Thanks for joining us on this!

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Radcliff]

pearlsw, you make a great point about nasty packages.  That is something that was a huge characteristic of my relationship.  My wife would bury legitimate needs or emotions of hers, or legitimate criticisms of me inside very nasty packages.  It took me a long time to realize this.  Eventually, I developed a strong stomach and determination to find the gem buried in the pile of poo.  It was messy and I was not always at my best, but I feel it was important to do it, and it helped us.  So, sometimes, on a tough day, I'd say partial validation is looking for the gem in a pile of poo.

WW

[Shawnlam]

I remember learning too little to late at the end of my relationship what validation even meant in a relationship with someone with BPD .When i tried near the end to change and put to practice what I had learnt it was too much .She said I confused her and made her anxious and that she couldn’t read me anymore.Today I can see why as I was outside the character she had become accustomed to .Since we have been apart as a couple , I’ve change a lot and every instance we were together be it dinner ,lunch , I apply a lot about what I learnt here.That month apart seemed to reset her memory or at least had her forget the bad things I did to her by not paying attention to her emotions.So I’d say even if someone may create a scenario that may be somewhat fictional or incomplete it’s really not about that ,more how they feel about it.Very tuff to do and garanties no success for the relationship but makes the mind more appreciative of the moment... .if that makes sense.

[pearlsw]

it’s really not about that ,more how they feel about it.Very tuff to do and garanties no success for the relationship but makes the mind more appreciative of the moment... .if that makes sense.

Hi Shawnlam,

Yes, this is often quite challenging! You make a good point here, whether or not it "works" it does give us the opportunity to slow down and be more in the present moment. It is not easy! Sometimes when my SO is dysregulating he is not easy to listen to so I can figure out what is wrong, listen to his feelings. I make my best efforts and when all else fails I just exit so I don't have to hear his cruel words. I am at least lucky that when he is calm he does not speak in ugly ways, just when he's really lost it.

warmly, pearl.

[desperate.wife]

I guess I can let few things slide, like picking up socks or pants that he leaves wherever he pleases as he took them out, sometimes with underwear left. You can just step in and pull them on... .It drives me crazy, but for now it is not worth putting too much attention.

Today we were calmly talking about money and I put my hands on his shoulders to reassure while he put one hand on boob. Then second one. Then he briefly touched down there. It was really inappropriate. It was bad timing and out of nowhere. I didn't get frustrated this time. I just said that we were talking and he said but it was over, the conversation (it was going to end but it was not over), he apologised and went to the bedroom. I told him I was not feeling it now. In general, yes, but the moment was bad. And too rough moves. Even felt like robot moves. He understands and is sorry, shouldn't have done that. Well, I let it go. (It is good sign that he still wants something with me). Then the thing that pearl said about packaging got me thinking. He did it when we were talking about money, we have non now. He is really stressed about it and I guess that’s how his stress showed up. That is how he calms himself. So I just went to be with him. To show that everything is and will be fine.

Also today after coming back from shop, he was feeling like dying. It is hot and he is ill, so I get the fatigue. But I still kept saying, oh it is not that hot, look, I am fine. (I really can't stand the heat, so if i am fine, it is not that hot. Usualy, I am the one dying from heat when everybody else are ok). There was no point in insisting that it is not that hot. It is 30 degrees, he is ill, he is tired. All I had to do was to say: yes it is really hot.  Some work to do I ended up saying it is hot.

[Bright_80]

I've only been practicing validating for the past week. While I'm not sure if it's made a significant difference in any of the specific situations yet, I'm sure it hasn't made it worse and it makes me feel better for trying! I know validating remarks made towards me are always welcome, so why not give them to my husband.

[Radcliff]

I've only been practicing validating for the past week. While I'm not sure if it's made a significant difference in any of the specific situations yet, I'm sure it hasn't made it worse and it makes me feel better for trying! I know validating remarks made towards me are always welcome, so why not give them to my husband.

That's excellent that you are trying validation!  To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.  Come back and let us know if you have any successes or setbacks.  While we definitely want to celebrate the successes, we also can help support and learn when there's a setback.

WW

[flourdust]

Short answer from me... .

Validating worked when I was not the trigger. (I could validate her feelings about her boss, about friends, about restaurant workers, or anything else that upset her.) This was way, way better than disagreeing with her, pointing out that my perception was different, or not responding at all.

Validating did not work when I was the trigger. (I could not validate her feelings about me without her ramping it up. If she said I was lying to her, for example, and I tried to validate that feeling, she would demand to know how I was going to fix this imaginary problem.)

On the other hand... .trying to validate was probably better than trying to JADE or ignore her or fight ... .so I suppose it's a matter of making a better choice out of a bad set of choices.

[Skip]

I don't know how effective a concept like "don't be invalidating/be validating" is if we use it like a stain remover pen applied to a food stain in a restaurant - only using this tool to try to disarm conflict or pending conflict.

To be effective, I think one must adopt and overall "less invalidating / more validating" approach to your partner. A lot of the equity is gained in the routine communication transactions with your partner that can spill over, favorably, in and around conflict situations.

When it actually comes to the conflict event, I think the most validating thing is to listen - and often the promise to do that listening is the defusing actions. Let the emotional unloading happen as long as the discussion stays inbounds (value/boundary) and then promise to sit down an talk about it.

My favorite it, let me run to the store and I'll be right back and we can talk about this. This give time for the emotiona tide to go out and get closer to baseline.

Then you listen and ask smart questions

Can you explain that a little more... .
Can you give an example so I can see it exactly... .
How does that make you feel... .
What do you think I intended... .

May favorite, what would resolve this for you.

Since most of the conflict is primarily an emotional unloading, my experience has been that the "asks" are often easy.

I think we learn trough trying, how to make this work best.

[Radcliff]

I really like the idea of validating and avoiding invalidation as an everyday activity.  That helps us keep things healthier, and also means that the we have a ton of practice at validation, so it comes more naturally when tensions are higher.

With respect to the asks being easy, my experience is perhaps closer to flourdusts, or worse.  The favorite ask in 2017 was for me to move out and never come back.  That's not an easy ask.    Seriously, though, I think that issue of not-so-easy asks is one our members commonly face.  It doesn't mean that validating shouldn't be used -- it's a fanastic tool for everyday and for crises -- but we eventually run out of rope.  That may be the time to employ Skip's tactic; "Let me go to the store, and we'll talk about it more right after I get back."

WW

[Skip]

With respect to the asks being easy, my experience is perhaps closer to flourdusts, or worse. The favorite ask in 2017 was for me to move out and never come back.  That's not an easy ask.  

You both my be a little colored by the deterioration of the relationships just before you went to divorce court... .

Let's break this down for a typical relationship.

Can you explain that a little more... .
Can you give an example so I can see it exactly... .
How does that make you feel... .
What do you think I intended... .
What would resolve this for you.

So generally a cascade of questions like this when the other person has returned to baseline is a way to get them to redefine there emotional response from "the world is falling down" to something closer to what cause the blowup "i tried on clothes in gthe store today and I look fat".

You have to listen/ask questions intelligently.  

So what if the ask is "move out!".

Well it could be a lesson to you that you didn't wait long enough for your partner to get to baseline... .note for next time.

But let's say they are calm and that is the response. I think it might be best if we separated?

That could be a lot of things that you can tease out, like a call for help.

And you could respond with, "OK, that's one solution and we can explore that. But I'm certainly not in a position to move out this week, so what would best solve this for this week?"

Look, this stuff takes practice and like a comedian testing his material on an audience, you have to figure out what questions styles work in different settings.

In my case, sometimes a hug was all that was needed at the end of the talk. Sometimes it would be don't touch me, and being really respectful of that worked. Sometimes taking away a "bad ask" to give some thought was helpful.

The thing about a bad ask, is that you can play the long game with it. Like 3 weeks later when you are having a blast at a pool party, you can say, still thinking we should separate?

But lets say none of that works.  So book a meeting with a lawyer and met on what needs to be done to separate. That can kill that buzzz pretty quick.

Work it.

By the way, this works in all relationships. It doesn't cure anything, but it does defuse things. Ultimately if there are unsolvable deep problems, relationships fail.  Gottman says it best. Most therapists teach communication skills and have a better than 50% failure. Reason? One you resolve the communication issues, the underlying problem needs to be found and resolved.

[Radcliff]

Yes, certainly I am colored by the most recent year or two of my relationship, which had deteriorated rather seriously.  Validation remains one of my favorite tools, and I found it to be very effective in many circumstances, and more effective the earlier it was used.  For me, validation, avoiding JADE, and learning boundaries are the "Big Three" tools with the best return on investment for new Betterers.

WW