Just Numb and Done

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My husband has BPD I believe.  Long story short, I’m tired of it.  Together almost 15 years, married almost 9:  2 kids under 12.  Walking on eggshells book seems to be a story about my life.  Criticisms on everything, fits of rage, hurtful words. My heart broke and shattered years ago.  Now for the past 2-3 years it’s just numb.  I think it’s time to just go.  Now that I’m ready to go, he’s trying everything he can to get me to stay.  He “sees how bad of a husband he’s been”.  “Can’t I just give him a chance to try to change”... .I’ve given him tons.  If something is done or said that doesn’t fit his narrative he does a 180 in behavior.  It’s like a child having a tantrum.  When do you know it’s time to cut your losses and start living a happy life without feeling guilty?

[Emotionally Numb]

My husband has BPD I believe.  Long story short, I’m tired of it.  Together almost 15 years, married almost 9:  2 kids under 12.  Walking on eggshells book seems to be a story about my life.  Criticisms on everything, fits of rage, hurtful words. My heart broke and shattered years ago.  Now for the past 2-3 years it’s just numb.  I think it’s time to just go.  Now that I’m ready to go, he’s trying everything he can to get me to stay.  He “sees how bad of a husband he’s been”.  “Can’t I just give him a chance to try to change”... .I’ve given him tons.  If something is done or said that doesn’t fit his narrative he does a 180 in behavior.  It’s like a child having a tantrum.  When do you know it’s time to cut your losses and start living a happy life without feeling guilty?

[pearlsw]

Hi Emotionally Numb,

I have hit a similar spot in 7.5 years!

I am not sure what to do either, but I worry about feeling numb.

If he says "I love you" can you say it back? Does he say it at all?

I think I knew a relationship was over (past relationships) when a big stretch of time would open with no sex and all I could think about was ending it. And also when I felt like I would be strong enough to not go back if asked.

Do you ever write out lists of reasons to stay versus reasons to go?

with compassion, pearl.

[Enabler]

Morning Emotionally Numb,

Many people on the boards have been in long term relationships such as yours. Many members have shared experiences. Many members have the emotional numbness you talk of. Many members even believe they are responsible for the chaos in their partners and come to the boards full of guilt and shame that no matter what they have tried to do to make things work, they just seem to be speaking a different language and operate in a completely different paradigm as to what is and isn't reasonable behavior. I found BPD and it filled in a lot of the blanks for me... .but then unfortunately/fortunately proposed a lot of questions.

How have you come to the point where you believe that your H suffers from BPD or traits of BPD? Have you had a chance to read any of the articles on the right hand side?

Knowledge is power, empower yourself.

Bestest

Enabler

[Emotionally Numb]

Pearl,

For years when I said "I Love You" back to him, it felt empty and hollow.  He has always said it but it seems pretty flat and empty.

I have not made a list but when I think about the relationship, there are more negative memories than positive ones.

[Emotionally Numb]

Enabler,

I am going to list just a few situations and such to let you know how I have come to the conclusion he possibly has BPD.

- everyone is always stupid, idiot, no common sense - his way is always the right way or the smart way
- very particular and anal about how things are done - perfectionist
- nothing is ever good enough for him (in all parts of life)
- "if it wasn't for bad luck he'd have no luck at all" - "I don't know why I thought this would go easy, nothing ever does for me."
- drinks excessively when he drinks (binge on the weekends 18+ beers)
- no patience, easily frustrated
- criticizes everything
- wants to be center of attention
- says mean, sarcastic hurtful things
... .and many, many more things

Now, for examples of things that have happened

- when I was pregnant with our first child he was drunk and told me I ruined his life
- When we dated, he got mad (when drunk) and when I responded back at him he never hit me but he was purposefully trying to hold me down and knocked my earring out of my ear.
- He's told me anywhere from 10-15 times in the past 10 years to pack my stuff and get out or he's threatened to leave.
- Comments like "don't you know how to make a bed?"  "you're washing dishes wrong.  instead of rinsing one at a time, you should rinse several at the same time."
- Never wants me to use the dishwasher because it 'uses too much electricity' yet, he has a detached shop with electricity, full fridge, smartTV, cable and a split unit HVAC.
- Did not help pay a dime for either birth of our kids or either miscarriage I had.  I paid it all.
- Money is always a trigger.  He never helps with anything for the kids and thinks because he pays the house payment he's done his part.  Our finances are separate because "no one is going to tell him how to spend his money."
- He threw shoes at me twice in front of the kids when he went into a fit of rage over nothing big.
- Bad day at work, he takes it out on us.
- anytime I call him, he makes it out like I'm bothering him or interrupting him - he's always "busy"
- He didn't listen to me once when I told him what time a ballgame was for one of our kids - he showed up an hour early.  Called me, cussed me out, blamed me that it was my fault.  After the game was over, he called me back and acted like nothing ever happened.
- Came in from work one night (2am), I ran the dishwasher, it leaked some.  He came down the hall, flipped the overhead light on in the bedroom and told me to "get the F*$^ up because the dishwasher has flooded the kitchen and I needed to get some towels and clean that S*&$ up."  It took one small towel.  It was one small puddle.  When I asked him about why he reacted the way he did, he said "if that water gets up under those cabinets it will warp them."
- He's flipped the light on other times because either I left the outdoor flood light on in the backyard (for him), or I left dishes unwashed in the sink (because I worked all day and then took 2 kids to 2 different ballgames and the next day was a school day).
- After my first miscarriage which was emotionally hard (he was emotionally absent for me) he said, "Can't you just get over it?"
- my birthday weekend his friends came over and I ended up cooking for them and watching their children while they all hung out in his shop drinking beer.
- He's told me many times I'm boring, and unsociable, that I don't have any friends - which is all untrue - because I didn't want to go do what he wanted to do.
- Tells me when I try to talk to him about what I need from him "I didn't know I married a person who was so needy.  You know I"m not an affectionate person."
- He works 2nd shift so I'm with the kids 24/7 and I'm already financially responsible for them 98% of the time.
- He promised to help me with our car payment but went out and bought a RZR instead.  
- I always pay for birthdays, Christmas etc., and when I ask him for money to help out it's a fight.
- I "never help him out".  He does "everything" around the house.  "I'm lucky to have him."
- If I don't do something I'm "lazy"
- I don't "manage" my money well but remember (I'm taking care of everything).
- If I ask for more of his time to spend with us as a family I hear "When am I supposed to do all the things I want to do?"

... .do I need to continue, there's so much more.

[Enabler]

Morning Emotionally Numb,

That's a pretty formidable list of rotten behaviour. You seem to be the source of all his woes and stresses and he seems pretty good at putting #1 first.

From what you have said he can be violent with 'stuff' but not with people, can you confirm that is correct?

Could you tell me a little bit about how you met and what he was like when you met?

Was Kid 12 planned?

How does your H compare to your Children. It's a bit odd when their emotional maturity surpasses that of their adult husband!

Stress is a clear trigger to him and it sounds like he has to pin blame on someone, other than himself for perceived slights. Is that correct?

Do you see any other BPD traits such as abandonment coming through in his behaviour? How is he with regards to you going out? Does he accuse you of having an affair, fancying other people?

Excuse my 1000 questions, I'm trying to get a clearer picture.

Enabler

[Emotionally Numb]

Good Morning Enabler,

No worries about the 1000 questions.  

So, here we go... .


From what you have said he can be violent with 'stuff' but not with people, can you confirm that is correct?

Correct.  He's only ever been violent when getting in fights with other men when drunk but that's been years ago now.

Could you tell me a little bit about how you met and what he was like when you met?

We met when through a friend of his.  He was always the "fun" one.  The "life of the party"/ center of attention.  However, every weekend (when we saw each other because we lived in different towns) he would drink excessively.  When he did (and even now sometimes) he's not a "fun/nice drunk".  He gets mouthy, says whatever he wants - like no filter on anything he says.  Would call me all sorts of names if he was mad at me.  If he was mad at someone else it would be at them and many times, that ended up in a fight.  After our first child was born he changed a lot in that aspect of partying and drinking so much.  We had been together 4 years when our first was born.  Then, another 2 after before we got married.  Even then, I'm not sure he wanted that but I never pushed him about it.  Also, he never really proposed.  We just went, picked out my ring and that was it.  Then, all wedding planning and money was left to me.  He never helped pay anything for our wedding - which was a small inexpensive one on the beach.

Was Kid 12 planned?
Kid 12?      Only 2 kids.  Kid 1 was not planned but we were already in the process of buying our house when we found out.  After he told me one night in a drunken stupor when he was mad at me that I ruined his life, he apologized and said he didn't mean it.  Even years later he said the best thing that ever happened was having that kid because it helped save him from a path of destruction.  Kid 2 was planned but it was a miscarriage.  Kid 3 was planned but it was a miscarriage.  Kid 4 wasn't planned because at this point I was done with the loss and heartache but all went well and we have kid 4.   The same thing, he loves kid 4 and can't imagine life without that spunky kid.  However, with each pregnancy when I told him, he never seemed excited.  Which is something that I feel I lost out on with how I've seen other men react to the news.

How does your H compare to your Children. It's a bit odd when their emotional maturity surpasses that of their adult husband!

Sometimes he clearly acts like a child having a tantrum.  But again, in his mind, he's the best and no one can compare to his superiority.  He knows the best solution to everything.  My oldest is far more mature emotionally than he is and that kid is only 11.  However, I've already seen the youngest - boy who is 6 - imitate some of his behaviors.  Things he's heard his dad say - gets sassy with replies, etc.  


Stress is a clear trigger to him and it sounds like he has to pin blame on someone, other than himself for perceived slights. Is that correct?

Yes, correct.  He does not handle any stress well at all.  And because I'm such a type B laid back person I am perceived as "lazy" because I don't get worked up about it.  And because I don't get worked up about it, I "don't care" about anything.  He has to keep a mental/verbal checklist of all he does.  Meaning everything he does he has to tell me... .and of course, to him, he always does more than I do.  I just don't have to tell him every little thing I do.  For example, he will say things like "I washed the dishes today.  I swept the floor.  I did laundry."  Almost like he has to have recognition or validation in what he did.

Do you see any other BPD traits such as abandonment coming through in his behaviour? How is he with regards to you going out? Does he accuse you of having an affair, fancying other people?

In a way I do see that some, not extreme but I do see it.  Throughout the years when I would pull away from him and become distant in a way to protect myself he would say something about me having an affair.  I would always tell him "when do I have time to have an affair?  I have the kids with me 24/7."  Or he would say things like ":)on't ever cheat on me.  If you're going to cheat leave first."  Ironic thing is he cheated on every girl he ever dated - except me he says.  I wouldn't be surprised if he did somewhere in the past but I think with his behavior he would have intentionally said something by now if he had to hurt me.

As for me going out, neither one of us have ever been the jealous type with each other.  I will say that I feel he has never felt loved by his parents.  His parents are super religious and he was the rebellious teenager that got into trouble some.  Like the black sheep of the family.  His brother (only 15 months older) did some of the same things he did but just never got caught doing them so he's always remained the "golden child".  There were always many fights and arguments between him and his brother and him and his parents.  I've seen and heard him say some really mean and hurtful things to his mother.  Things that no matter how much you may be angry - you just don't say to your mother.  In the last several years - after we had kids since his parents moved away - their relationship has gotten better.  But still to this day they get on his nerves.  They can just call and his dad just want to talk about nothing and you can see the impatientness erupting.  He's like that with me on the phone and his parents but he can spend forever talking to a buddy about stuff.

[pearlsw]

Now that I’m ready to go, he’s trying everything he can to get me to stay.  He “sees how bad of a husband he’s been”.  “Can’t I just give him a chance to try to change”... .I’ve given him tons. 

Hi Emotionally Numb,

What is he doing to try to get you to stay? How do you feel about these efforts? Too little too late maybe? Or "I'll wait and see." Or... .?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Emotionally Numb]

To be honest Pearl, I'm not really sure.   Maybe because he's been "more relaxed and calm and not trying to stress about things.  That's all I know and all he's said.  But also, I've not been around him or home since June 17th.

I feel like it's a little too late.  Like, I have been talking to you for months/years and it fell on deaf ears until he saw I was leaving.

[Enabler]

This isn't intended to sound trite (precursor to something sounding trite), my intention is to make you critically look at your own behaviour... .how many years has he been telling you your behaviour isn't okay and how much have you sat up and listened to everything?

Although I didn't agree that there was anything wrong with the way I reacted to my W, I thought that everything I did, said and thought was utterly reasonable, I realise now that it wasn't. Not for the reasons she thought but for many many different reasons. The point I'm getting at was that I have been told I was wrong/bad/errant for 20 years, I knew that I wasn't so i lost respect for my wife and ignored what she was saying because I thought that she was wrong. The thing is she wasn't wrong, that's how she felt and she felt that for a reason... .reasons that I didn't understand nor could comprehend, reasons that were often imagined up in fantasy land but for her, it was very real and I DIDN'T GET IT, I DIDN'T LISTEN, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

Could he not be thinking the same thing about you?

What happens if you now listen, if you adapt your behaviours? Who knows... .he's making a change to his behaviour right!

[Emotionally Numb]

Enabler,

I understand what you're getting at but we (myself and kids) have walked on "eggshells" around him for years now.  I get that a lot of what I read has to do with abandonment issues and in a sense, a BPD person sets the stage to where it's almost a "self-fulfilling prophecy" because eventually people get tired of it and leave.

However, as a mother, I have a responsibility to my kids to make sure they grow up in a happy environment, not a chaotic one.  I'm already seeing my son imitate a few of the behaviors he sees his father doing.  I've put in time with him, I've tried all different approaches with him, I tried talking about it and it never made a dent until I said I was leaving.  He's told me numerous times over the years when I have mentioned things I needed from him that he was "going to try harder to do those things for me" and it lasted all of a couple days/weeks and then right back into the same vicious cycle.  The verbal abuse is bad enough.  Throw in him acting like a madman sometimes and I see my kids deserve better.  He's had the kids a couple weekends and they've had great weekends.  He acts better when I'm not around and if that's what my kids need to have a better functioning dad then so be it.  The way my life has been is not a way to live.  A weaker person would have had serious damage done to them by now with his behavior.  I just thank God I'm so strong.

[Enabler]

He's told me numerous times over the years when I have mentioned things I needed from him that he was "going to try harder to do those things for me" and it lasted all of a couple days/weeks and then right back into the same vicious cycle. 

I hear you and I'm not trying to push you one way or another. However what I was trying to get at was not about you delivering his demands, that's what he says he needs. For years he has been communicating with you what he needs, badly I'd imagine, in a rage I guess as well... .but deep in that poor communication was a message. My guess is that he didn't think he was being unreasonable when he was screaming the house down. He felt totally unheard and misunderstood, frustrated that people just weren't getting him... .when it comes to the abandonment thing he may well have actually felt scared. Yet, for years you didn't 'listen' to him because you were both speaking completely different languages. He was speaking the language of emotional dysregulation and you were speaking as a rational adult. You heard his rants, his demands and his insults but what he was communicating was far deeper than that.

If you have come to bpdfamily for validation that leaving is the right thing to do, I'm afraid I can't give you that as it's against the rules of the board. If you want to try and improve your relationship in a different way, maybe understanding the language he's speaking, improve yourself to help reduce the bad and increase the good in the relationship, we can help with that. If you choose to separate we can also help with that as well... .but this is your choice to weigh up. Please read the article below, being in a BPD relationship isn't easy, but then you clearly know that. However there are things you can do to make it easier. You cannot rely on your H ever changing his core emotional sensitivities.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

[Emotionally Numb]

Hi Enabler,

No, I have not come here for validation to stay or leave.  I've come here to learn how to deal/communicate with him because regardless of if I stay or go, I have to communicate with him for our children.  I guess it's an empowerment for myself so I have the tools to deal with him.

I have come here to read other's stories and see that 1) there are others out there dealing with this same thing and 2) figure out what happened with their stories to see how I can make sure mine turns out as best as it possibly can.

I guess one of the things I'm having trouble with since I've found out about BPD is how everything seems to say (and I could be reading into it wrong) how the nonBPD people have to change their ways/thoughts/personalities to accommodate the BPD's episodes when to me, those who are on the receiving end of the BPD's episodes are the ones whose life seems to be the most affected.  I really have a hard time with that.  Maybe it's because I'm a logical thinker.  It's almost like it's saying you coddle them like a child when having a tantrum.  I wanted a husband, not another child.  Plus, if the person is closed off to possibly thinking there may be an issue with them and getting the help they need then it's just another round on the vicious cycle over and over... .and that is where I am.  I'm ready to get off that ride.  I can talk, coddle, placate, etc., with him, then take care of my children pretty much 98% alone, work my full-time teaching job, do mom duties, house duties, etc., and then I'm exhausted.  Who looks after me if I don't?  He's not.  So, yeah, I'm having a hard time with all these articles and advice about how I should change myself to accommodate him when I'm the one really taking care of everything.

[Cat Familiar]

I guess one of the things I'm having trouble with since I've found out about BPD is how everything seems to say (and I could be reading into it wrong) how the nonBPD people have to change their ways/thoughts/personalities to accommodate the BPD's episodes when to me, those who are on the receiving end of the BPD's episodes are the ones whose life seems to be the most affected.  I really have a hard time with that.  Maybe it's because I'm a logical thinker.  It's almost like it's saying you coddle them like a child when having a tantrum.  I wanted a husband, not another child.  Plus, if the person is closed off to possibly thinking there may be an issue with them and getting the help they need then it's just another round on the vicious cycle over and over... .and that is where I am.  I'm ready to get off that ride.  I can talk, coddle, placate, etc., with him, then take care of my children pretty much 98% alone, work my full-time teaching job, do mom duties, house duties, etc., and then I'm exhausted.  Who looks after me if I don't?  He's not.  So, yeah, I'm having a hard time with all these articles and advice about how I should change myself to accommodate him when I'm the one really taking care of everything.

I felt the same way when I first came here. Why should I be the one to do all the work to change how I communicate when he's the one with the problem?

But then I realized that by expecting him to communicate in a rational and logical way when he was acting out, I was actually making things worse because he felt demeaned that I was able to keep my dignity while he acted like an idiot.

So, being the strategic person I am, I began to let go of my stubbornness and started trying different approaches. And guess what? Some of them actually worked. Some didn't, but I began to see when he was starting to go off the rails and now I quickly adjust my communication.

All in all, it's made things so much easier. We seldom have conflict and when we do, it stays at a very minimal level instead of bat-sh!t crazy.

[Enabler]

I too am more towards the rational side of the emotional ~ rational spectrum. The advice I received here defys all sense of fair, reasonable behaviour. I mean, you’re right, they’re the ones with the PD, they are the ones that twist and contort our reality, react unreasonably and cause chaos around us. But here’s the way I think about it:
- if my wife had a broken leg I would not expect her to walk up a mountain
- if I can spend the least amount of energy possible and keep my wife from causing me and my family more emotional, economic and practical pain, I will do that, as that efficient.
- my wife’s emotional mind has bought me and my family much pleasure over the last 20 years, much pain as well but she is a wonderful creature.
- I am outcome orientated, it’s no longer about what’s right and ‘fair’, it’s about what works to get a more positive outcome
- by behaving in a better way their behaviour becomes more visible to them and others and I’m able to be less of a scapegoat. I’m no longer part of the chaos.
- by behaving and protecting myself in the right way I am more likely to retain a good relationship with my kids, less likely for her to bring false claims against me to the police, less likely to tell our community I have abused her.

Ultimately one has to ‘radically accept’ our own reality. The reality being that we married someone who has serious emotional sensitivities and these sensitivities are here to stay and may only be lessened with a long hard course of DBT therapy, AND that course of DBT therapy will only be completed when our partners ‘radically accept’ that they have had a long standing personality disorder which has meant that they see and react to the world in an abnormal way. Basically that they have been seeing Red when everyone else has been seeing Green.

For whatever reasons this is the boat we’re in. We can improve the boat with soft furnishings and nice curtains on the window, we can even put the drunken sailor in a little boat tied to the back of the main ship... .but they are still there and we have to deal with them.

With regards to the amount of energy you spend managing your H vs the amount you have to give to yourself, the tools and learning can help change the balance. By being more effective you can waste less energy managing him this freeing up more energy for you. I like to think of this burden as a big rucksack on your back, we all have one and people deal with it in different ways. The bag is filled with reaponaibilities such as the mortgage, food shopping, work, kids welfare, aspirations, dreams. You place things in your bag, other people place things in your bag. Do an inventory of your bag and make sure only the thing you want in your bag are in there. Now is not the time to have unnecessary things in there so park as much as you can. It will make you feel lighter and more nimble.what I tend to find is that my W drops her responsibilities on the ground, the important ones, the ones that need to be done, she decides they are no longer important to her... .historically I would pick them up and pop them in my own bag knowing that something bad would happen if someone didn’t own it... .now I leave it on the ground, I don’t even point at it. Let them bare the consequences of their actions!

Enabler

[Emotionally Numb]

Enabler,

All of those things make so much sense the way you worded them.  So now, here's the big thing.  What do you do when the BPD's behaviors have changed the way you feel about them?  Meaning, because of the constant criticism, verbal abuse, etc., my feelings for him have changed.  I still care about him.  I do still love him - he's the father of my children.  I don't want anything bad to ever happen to him but, I don't believe I'm in love with him anymore.   A person can only take so much beat down over and over and eventually their feelings change.  So, even though he says he wants to "prove to me he can change" (which I don't think will happen unless he admits he has an issue and goes see a therapist - which I don't think he will) I don't think any amount of times I give him to prove it will be successful.

[Enabler]

What do you do when the BPD's behaviors have changed the way you feel about them?  Meaning, because of the constant criticism, verbal abuse, etc., my feelings for him have changed. 

There's a couple of way that I deal with this.

Firstly, why did your feelings change? Because he said and did horrible things to you right? Why did he do those horrible things to you, or around you, that impacted you? Was it because he wanted to be horrible to you, or was it that he was fighting for his emotional survival? I spent 18 years feeling as though all these things that my W were doing were just acts of hatred and a dark side to her that wanted to punish me... .well... .if I re-contextualise these behaviours in a mix of BPD and childhood trauma, they make a lot of sense and actually weren't quite as brutal as I'd been thinking. It's the intention to harm me that hurts me and makes me think "why would someone take my love and contort it so much?".

Secondly, once upon a time I didn't know my W. I didn't even know she existed. I had no relationship with her whatsoever. From that nothing, I built something amazing, and it was/is amazing; it's super complicated, emotionally exhausting and emotionally terrifying but it is amazing. I don't have BPD therefore I am able to look back at the full spectrum of our relationship and see from the brightest of whites through all the colours of the rainbow to the very very black dark moments and see good, bad, normal, fun and sad times... .and that all came from absolutely nothing.

Esther Perel put it well in one of her talks about infidelity when she said that most people in the modern world will have 3-4-5 relationships in our lifetime, and some if not all of those will be with the same person. Only you can decide whether or not the feint embers are still there to blow on, to create a new relationship based on a new informed you (you can't expect him to change), a better you, a stronger you. You may decide that the new informed you is better out of the relationship... .but either way, a strong and powerful, informed and educated you WILL make changes, even if it's just because he's no longer able to emotionally wound you.

Enabler