have any of your ever explained alienated child what is happening?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I know that an alienated child is deeply entrenched in the BPD persons reality.

So here we have the situation that BPDmom has successfully alienated my two stepsons from my husband. Any email that my husband sends to BPDmom about the kids concerning visitation etc will be shared with the kids (they are 11 yrs old).
This results in kids shouting at my husband how he dares to take all the fun away from them by requesting visitation etc.

I have been wondering wether there is a way to tell the children that those Emails and all communication about scheduling visitation is between mom and Dad that this is a topic that they should not worry about as it is the adults in their lives that will take care of this. One of the kids has a lot of anxiety (understandably!). So it really riles him up when BPDmom shares all Emails with him. He is her defender and spokesperson.

[soundofmusicgirl]

I know that an alienated child is deeply entrenched in the BPD persons reality.

So here we have the situation that BPDmom has successfully alienated my two stepsons from my husband. Any email that my husband sends to BPDmom about the kids concerning visitation etc will be shared with the kids (they are 11 yrs old).
This results in kids shouting at my husband how he dares to take all the fun away from them by requesting visitation etc.

I have been wondering wether there is a way to tell the children that those Emails and all communication about scheduling visitation is between mom and Dad that this is a topic that they should not worry about as it is the adults in their lives that will take care of this. One of the kids has a lot of anxiety (understandably!). So it really riles him up when BPDmom shares all Emails with him. He is her defender and spokesperson.

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like dad needs extra help in his corner.  Or rather, a neutral and trained professional in the kids' corner.  If there's no counselor for the kids already then dad should seek to get an excellent counselor assigned, one with a solid reputation and not one easily gullible or intimidated by mom.

[livednlearned]

I have been wondering wether there is a way to tell the children that those Emails and all communication about scheduling visitation is between mom and Dad that this is a topic that they should not worry about as it is the adults in their lives that will take care of this.

Is this something you would try to do in person?

Are the kids scheduled to visit with you this summer?

[kells76]

This is really hard, painful stuff. I'm so sorry you and your husband are going through this -- and the boys, too, in a different way.

You're absolutely right that alienated kids are stuck in a parent's reality. Their selves aren't strong enough to get out. As you know they end up being little channels for whatever Mom is feeling.

The behavior changes that will have the most impact on the kids are adult behavior changes. It would be nice if just explaining to the kids what was going on would fix things, but the tough part is that -- in my experience with my husband's kids -- it didn't work that way.

I'm guessing that in an ideal world, things would go like this:

-someone explains to boys that visitation is something mom and dad decide on
-boys relax and don't have anxiety about spending time with dad
-boys stop shouting at dad and instead have a good relationship

Or something like that.

In my experience with DH and his girls, the thing that had the most impact on anti-visit behavior by SD12 was changed parent behavior. (We were very lucky that the counselor that Mom insisted on ended up being awesome and insightful. Like FD said, though, if you're in a position to pick one, do so -- not Mom. Or give Mom a list of 3 to pick from) Mom really didn't change a lot at first, then put in more effort, and now is backsliding. But the parent behavior totally in our control was DH's.

Even if the boys' mom doesn't "agree" to counseling, I think a lot of child counselors will be ok with seeing just DH (and you) alone -- no kids. This can be really helpful.

That was a lot I just dumped there! I guess I've been reflecting lately on the past 7 years. You sound like where we were at for like 5 of those 7 years. It's exhausting and painful. And, step parenting... .Yup. All the pain, few rewards, in a way. I guess what I'd distill all this down to is -- find a good child psych, Mom can "agree" or not, whatever, but you and DH go. There is a lot you can do from what looks like the "down" position.

That reminds me -- if you haven't read any of Dr Craig Childress's articles, I found a lot of insight in them. He hits the nail on the head about disordered family dynamics and kids being roped into a parent's dysregulation. Look for the article called "Parenting Jiu-Jitsu" for very specific strategies for communicating with alienated kids.

Hang in there, and let me know if this wasn't helpful or didn't address your concern. I hear how much you care about your husband's relationship with his boys, and I just want to encourage you that you're not alone in this situation.

kells76

[soundofmusicgirl]

Thank you everyone for your input and experience.

Unfortunately BPDmom found a therapist for my stepsons 2 years ago that drinks her kool-aid and believes every word that BPDmom says. My husband is completely shut out from this therapy and the psychologist is the spokesperson for BPDmom. She does everything that BPDmom tells her to do. BPD mom does not like one of the kids teachers in school. No problem. She goes to the kids therapist and has her write a letter how much anxiety the kid has over the teacher and that it needs to change home room teachers. Voila.

The psychologist is still advocating for the boys to never visit us. She also has "diagnosed" them with a plethora of mental issues (she does not have the credentials to actually do testing). So in other words: the kids have seen that therapist for 2 years and according to therapist and BPDmom they are getting worse and worse and are adding a diagnosis for each boy once a year. And of course it is my husbands fault

The therapist knows that BPDmom shares the Emails from my husband with the kids. But she supports the kids being angry with Dad as he is the villain.
We tried to fight it in court, but as we live overseas the judge basically said that my husband should have access to all medical records and doctors but that BPDmom is the one taking the kids to all the doctors etc and therefore she gets to chose and has final say.

The school district they are in has a mental health agency attached and stepson1 meets regularly with a counsellor there. He understands what is happening but also feels very helpless with the little influence he has on the kids. He does however tell son1 that having a relationship with your father is important and that he should treat him with respect.

The boys were supposed to come and visit us this summer for 5 weeks. Surprise, surprise... BPD mom sabotaged it. She decided to hand in the application for passports late and caused all kinds of problems so that the kids did not have valid passports for their summer visit to us.

[kells76]

That's really hard. Sounds like the boys' mom is getting a negative advocate in her court. I know I would be like, You don't see the crazy? How do you not see the crazy? 

I'm interested in a couple of things going on for you guys:

the judge basically said that my husband should have access to all medical records and doctors

and

The school district they are in has a mental health agency attached and stepson1 meets regularly with a counsellor there

In our U.S. state, the NCP may "inspect and receive school & medical records" (and some other stuff too I think). This is good that a judge has said that your H shall have access to all med records. I'm assuming school records too?

Does Mom try to withhold this info? Do you have a court order or other paper trail backing up that DH should be getting this stuff? Do you have any emails where Mom is like, No, you can't see X? Or, conversely, did X happen (related to school or medical something) and there is NO evidence that Mom shared the info with you?

I know member David has had some memorable experiences with having to take a physical copy of the court order to his boys' school to get stuff done. Has DH been blocked by school/med professionals from getting info?

I guess what I am wondering is -- maybe this seems like rock bottom to you. And it is really painful, and things are looking bad. We have been there too -- the girls' mom pulled them out of school when she found out DH was getting a job there   The steps to start coming back are small, and tough, and may seem like nothing. But it's not nothing. What would it be like if DH gathered the info that the judge said he shall have, brought it to a T that he (and you) pick, laid it all out, and was like, Look, here's what's going on, and here's what I'm trying to do. What do you see that I'm missing that I could do, because I feel really stuck trying to work with Mom and her negative advocate?

That's a lot of brainstorming. Some may fit, some may not. I guess one more bigger question is:

How are YOU doing with all this? Because I know it's really hard being the stepmom 

[soundofmusicgirl]

Those are all good points and ideas.

The T the kids currently has refuses to hand out any records or information. We had to subpoena it. And even then she needed two letters from our lawyer to follow through. My husband even played the "I do not give my consent for you to treat the children" card. T totally ignored it.

My husband has access to school and has good communication with teachers and the mental health agency that is attached to the school district. But unfortunately in the end it is BPDmom that brings the kids to school because we live overseas and it usually means we have to play catch up every step of the way. She rarely informs my husband of things and the court (in our case) does not really care about that. We showed proof in court that she only informed my husband of the kids having this T after they have been treatment with her for 3 months. And that was inspite of my husband asking BPDmom on a regular basis wether the kids were in treatment yet and please inform him BEFORE they have their first appointment.

BPD mom constantly tries to withhold information and she also only passes along the information to other care takers (teachers etc) that plays in her favour.

I think in the end the question is: how much time does my husband want to invest into constantly playing catch up. Because we live overseas there is not a big time window during the day where he can reach out to people in the US. He is exhausted and is burned out.

It makes me sick to my stomach to see the kids being brainwashed. Their childhood is being taken away and they will have issues from this for a long time. My husband tries to hold on unto the day that BPDmoms iron fist might not work on the kids anymore. But who knows when that is.
It is hard to believe that within a few months kids can turn from "i love you Dad" to "I don't know wether I still want you as my father" (that was said after son1 told us that BPDmom had told him Dad was an adulterer and sinner).

[ForeverDad]

The boys were supposed to come and visit us this summer for 5 weeks. Surprise, surprise... BPD mom sabotaged it. She decided to hand in the application for passports late and caused all kinds of problems so that the kids did not have valid passports for their summer visit to us.

If it was a "late" application, she could and should have expedited the processing.  If the USA then they have simple policies to handle short notice applications.  Yes, it costs extra but it can easily be done.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/apply-renew-passport/hurry.html

I would suggest dad reports what happened, that mother had alternatives to get the passports issued in time and applies to the court for official make up time either during Winter Break (often nearly two weeks) or next summer.  Otherwise she'll feel she got away with it yet again.

[kells76]

I think in the end the question is: how much time does my husband want to invest into constantly playing catch up. Because we live overseas there is not a big time window during the day where he can reach out to people in the US. He is exhausted and is burned out.

This makes a lot of sense. It is a ton of effort to document all the daily stuff.  I remember being so tired of writing down every little thing from the whole weekend we were with the kids, week after week, month after month, and then skipping documentation because I was so tired, and then feeling overwhelmed.

And I'm sure it's tough on you supporting your H when he's in this position. Not in a "bad" way, but it's just a lot.

FD's idea sounds like it could work as part of a bigger strategy: document the big stuff officially, then get support to figure out what of the "small" stuff needs to be tracked and what can be "let go" in the interest of your and your H's mental health.

My husband tries to hold on unto the day that BPDmoms iron fist might not work on the kids anymore. But who knows when that is.

Yeah, us too. SD12 was drinking the Kool-Aid big time since age 6. It took until 11 for things to at least be positive with DH. Now that she's 12 she is talking back to Mom a little more. I never thought I'd see the day.

It's sounding like your mental health and your H's mental health are important, as is not burning out with the minutia of coparenting/documenting. What kind of support do you guys have for figuring out a strategy? Besides us 

[DivDad]

I married and divorced an uBPD with 2 children.  They are now over 18. You are certainly not alone in all that you have written.  It’s doubly hard trying to enforce a parenting schedule living overseas, but I might be able to offer you a couple of things to consider.
(1)   Maybe accept that are not going to “win” any day-today parenting violations due to being overseas.  Keep doing what you are doing…but maybe focus on planting a couple of flags for the long run. (a) Having continuous phone access to your children (assuming there is a stipulation of such in your divorce papers. (2) Ensuring that they visit you for the 5 weeks stipulated every year.  Over the course of the year(s), enforcing that will be a  daunting task.  You have a few more years until your children are 18 and become young adults, and they will eventually understand.  (That was my case.)  Going back to court for all the other things appears to be a stalemate.  But if you focus on phone contact and the 5 weeks each year…you will be establishing something that is somewhat controllable.   
(2)   I can only offer a few semi-legal things to consider too.  It appears things are stacked against you being overseas, but rather than going to back court for all the other violations, you can go back on the two items mentioned above.  Each state has their own rules, etc. and in my state, the court frowns upon any violations of a parenting schedule. Again, let everything else run its course, and if you need to go back to court, focus on phone calls and the 5 weeks. Document that rather than all the other things. Too, Parent Alienation Syndrome is hard to prove in most courts but violating a parent schedule is pretty much black and white.  Your children might internalize all the lies and manipulations, but in my case, time was on my side.   It wasn’t until they became young adults did they begin realizing that I wasn’t the bad guy. Also, if you go back to court, ask your attorney about getting a  guardian ad litem (GAL) for your children. Each state is different, but in short, you have your attorney, your ex has hers and the GAL represents the children IN THE COURTROOM. In my state, GAL’s have broad authority to investigate both family situations. Get a GAL attorney….and not a GAL social worker. In my case, it was worth the expense.  Again, if you go to court, focus on phone contact and the 5 weeks.  That should help set the foundation when your children are older. Too, if you have them for 5 weeks, the first week might be rough, but the children will start to realize what is normal and what is not.  Good luck!