Getting hit with big criticisms

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

This is my first post, but I'll get right to it. My husband and I have a high-conflict relationship, although we love each other. Lately (after looking up some things he says and does frequently) I have learned about BPD and started to identify BPD behavior patterns in our marriage. This includes actions on my part that fuel the cycle.

Tonight, after we hashed out something he'd been stewing over for two days, I thought we had come to a resolution. He had tried to hug and kiss me on the beach about 40 minutes after a minor quibble and apparently I didn't respond, and he felt rejected. I say apparently because I didn't even remember it happening, so it must not have made an impression on me. I know that I was feeling a little annoyed with him at the time, so perhaps I didn't feel affectionate. Anyway, we went round and round... .I said that it should be OK for me not to feel affectionate all the time. He said that, well, if our relationship was not going to include physical affection then he would no longer try to be affectionate and would not expect affection from me. I told him that was all-or-nothing thinking. I worked really hard to be calm and not take a tone during the discussion. Finally, I said that I hadn't meant to hurt his feelings, I was sorry that I had, and that in the future if I didn't feel like being affectionate I would say that and why. (he said he would prefer an explanation to "zero response." So it seemed like the carousel of blame had stopped, and we'd resolved things, when he said, "I wish that we could just be kinder to one another... .but it feels like your heart's not in this relationship."

At which point I just wanted to throw up my hands and run screaming into the street. Because this is a pattern with him: he'll have a specific complaint or a criticism, and when that's been resolved, he'll hit me with some large general criticism that makes me feel helpless and sunk. I tried to calmly point out that this criticism hurt, and he specified that he meant our marriage wasn't a priority for me. (We have a 10-month-old whom I'm currently at home with). I then pointed out that this is a pattern he has of going from a seemingly resolved complaint to a large complaint that I can't defend myself against. He said it's because he "holds a lot of things in, because it's not in my best interest to tell you, and then they all come out at once." I think BS. I told him I think it's emotionally abusive. Is this  a pattern others have been on the receiving end of? Or am I really forcing him to bottle this stuff in so he has to let it out on me? Sorry for the long post!

[Sardinia]

Hi all,

This is my first post, but I'll get right to it. My husband and I have a high-conflict relationship, although we love each other. Lately (after looking up some things he says and does frequently) I have learned about BPD and started to identify BPD behavior patterns in our marriage. This includes actions on my part that fuel the cycle.

Tonight, after we hashed out something he'd been stewing over for two days, I thought we had come to a resolution. He had tried to hug and kiss me on the beach about 40 minutes after a minor quibble and apparently I didn't respond, and he felt rejected. I say apparently because I didn't even remember it happening, so it must not have made an impression on me. I know that I was feeling a little annoyed with him at the time, so perhaps I didn't feel affectionate. Anyway, we went round and round... .I said that it should be OK for me not to feel affectionate all the time. He said that, well, if our relationship was not going to include physical affection then he would no longer try to be affectionate and would not expect affection from me. I told him that was all-or-nothing thinking. I worked really hard to be calm and not take a tone during the discussion. Finally, I said that I hadn't meant to hurt his feelings, I was sorry that I had, and that in the future if I didn't feel like being affectionate I would say that and why. (he said he would prefer an explanation to "zero response." So it seemed like the carousel of blame had stopped, and we'd resolved things, when he said, "I wish that we could just be kinder to one another... .but it feels like your heart's not in this relationship."

At which point I just wanted to throw up my hands and run screaming into the street. Because this is a pattern with him: he'll have a specific complaint or a criticism, and when that's been resolved, he'll hit me with some large general criticism that makes me feel helpless and sunk. I tried to calmly point out that this criticism hurt, and he specified that he meant our marriage wasn't a priority for me. (We have a 10-month-old whom I'm currently at home with). I then pointed out that this is a pattern he has of going from a seemingly resolved complaint to a large complaint that I can't defend myself against. He said it's because he "holds a lot of things in, because it's not in my best interest to tell you, and then they all come out at once." I think BS. I told him I think it's emotionally abusive. Is this  a pattern others have been on the receiving end of? Or am I really forcing him to bottle this stuff in so he has to let it out on me? Sorry for the long post!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[babyducks]

Hi Sardinia,

Welcome.   I'm glad you made your first post.    It sounds like you are familiar with the dynamics and patterns of a high conflict relationship.

I think you have identified one of the more difficult parts of a relationship of this nature.    Resolution is hard to come by.

when he said, "I wish that we could just be kinder to one another... .but it feels like your heart's not in this relationship."

Ouch.   That had to sting.   I got a lot of comments like this.    They really confused and baffled me since I had never worked so hard for a relationship in my life.    I also felt blamed and judged.    It was difficult.

He said it's because he "holds a lot of things in, because it's not in my best interest to tell you, and then they all come out at once." I think BS. I told him I think it's emotionally abusive. Is this  a pattern others have been on the receiving end of? Or am I really forcing him to bottle this stuff in so he has to let it out on me? Sorry for the long post!

Here is my experience,   people who have BPD or the traits of the disorder, process and experience life differently than you and I do.    They have harmfully intense emotions and that all or nothing thinking which you already noticed.   My ex  struggled to regulate her emotions and express them in ways that worked for her.    A lot of times her intense emotions were bottled up, not because of anything I did or didn't do,   more I think because she was highly sensitive to events around her.    Often I didn't even notice the event that set her off.

Are you really forcing him to bottle stuff up?   From the description you posted here I can't see it.   You mentioned you "went round and round".   That doesn't sound like you weren't willing to communicate.    What was true for me in my relationship,... .was my partner often tried or attempted to off load her more difficult emotions onto me.   and make me responsible for 'fixing' them.    as she often felt 'unloved and unlovable' and then frustrated when she couldn't get me to resolve that feeling for her.    if that makes sense.

do you think that might have been what you experienced?

'ducks

[Penser]

Bill Eddy - BIFF communication, generally advises against apologising o BPD's when it is a 'big' issue - wroth reading up more on

[Sardinia]

Hi babyducks,

Thanks for your response!

Your description of feeling "'unloved and unlovable' and then frustrated when she couldn't get me to resolve that feeling for her" makes perfect sense. And as you say you often didn't even notice the event that set her off—yup. Frequently. In this case I felt like I was on the defensive about an incident I didn't even remember. He perceives slights toward us by other people that don't even register with me. So when he says I'm insensitive to him, I don't want to invalidate his feelings, but I'm also not sure I want to admit fault... .which seems to be what he wants.

It's hard for me to figure out what normal expectations are because our perceptions of events are so different. He sees me being cold and rejecting, I see myself being a little wary and mistrustful of Dr. Jekyll. He sees a valid criticism, and I see him trying to blame me for the problems in our relationship. I read something useful last night about setting boundaries: you can set any reasonable limit you want, in your own judgment. My judgment tells me that receiving a large, blaming criticism like "your heart's not in this relationship" at the end of an argument feels terrible and untrue and is manipulative. So I'm going to try to set a limit on it, and let him know that if he chooses to do that, I'm going to walk away for a while. We'll see how that goes!

[babyducks]

Boundaries are a great tool.  The skill to identify and set effective and reasonable boundaries is something I learned here.  I'm much better than I was at it.

What I learned here was that a boundary was protect my values, not enforce behaviors.  For example, if I had a value that it was important to me to speak kindly to people who I care about then my boundary could be to take a time out when I felt the conversation was becoming harsh.

How I expressed that boundary and how I engaged it matters.   A boundary is about me, and my limits.    It's not about changing some one else but protecting the things that matter to me.    My mood.    My feelings.   

I think its perfectly fine to say I have to take a break from this conversation now  because I don't like harsh words between us.

[pearlsw]

Hi all, 

Sardinia, thanks so much for this very insightful and helpful post! It really got me thinking. There are elements in the dynamic you've described that I can see between my SO and myself.

At times I've felt like I wasn't allowed to have emotions as they can affect his so much, and because his seem to sit at the center of everything. It's been a pretty powerful dynamic to counter.

I see what you are saying about Boundaries, but you might also want to consider not JADE-ing. Is that something you have tried?

take care, pearl.

[braveSun]

... when he says I'm insensitive to him, I don't want to invalidate his feelings, but I'm also not sure I want to admit fault... .which seems to be what he wants.

Hey Sardinia. You have an interesting topic. I've had that too with my spouse, telling me what I was feeling. I used to say, as lightly and jokingly as I could, that my feelings were my own business. Sometimes I got a giggle for it. Like she had not noticed herself doing it.

Some other times, though, I felt like you described. Like what she was saying didn't make sense.Was abusive. Hurtful.  In those cases, I completely can relate to you not wanting to admit fault where there isn't. And darn yes, it appears in those times she wanted me to admit something she believed about me that I didn't see as such. It's hard from there to not start JADEing , like pearlsw mentions. Here I mean try to justify, argue, defend the righteousness of your point, explain your situation. Doing this would invalidate the experience of your husband.

Possibly you identified some behaviors that you searched online and found out concepts to explain what was going on. This might very well be an on-going discovery. Like when each time you identify something he said that doesn't make sense, you'd want to share your discovery with him to let him know that it was manipulative, abusive, hurtful.

I've done that at the beginning of my discovery.

I see it now that by running these terms about her behavior with her, she felt invalidated and more defensive. My uneducated mistake. I couldn't know at the time where she was coming from saying those things. 

Like babyducks, I like that you are thinking about setting boundaries for yourself and protecting your values in the relationship.

One of them for me is respect, and I learned to just walk away from my loved one when she starts to say things that goes too far and I know I could not just sit there without being invalidating her. Sometimes, yes, walking away for a short time and coming back helps.

To these good points I would add, have you read this article about invalidation?

What do you think about all of this?

Brave

[babyducks]

what it sounds like to me, as I read through this thread, is that our values and our emotional needs are closely aligned.   I value kindness and have an emotional need for it.   BraveSun values respect.

I think the 'conflict' in high conflict comes into play when our emotional needs don't get met and our values get pushed.     There is a reason I value kindness.   It's not random.    It's not an accident.    I value kindness because of things that I learned, saw, experienced as a child.   It comes from my family of origin.    I'm not saying I am good at kindness.   Only that I value it.

So when my emotional need isn't getting met, and my value isn't being honored, what do I do?   I know it's not possible to get my emotional needs met all the time.   No one gets their emotional needs met all the time.   When I am with some one with higher than average emotional needs for attention, affection and validation what do I do?    It's not possible for me to meet some one else's emotional need all the time.   after all I am only human, I will eventually fall down.

I think one of the things that makes a personality disorder a disorder is the way needs are attempted to be met.    in my un-educated view at least.   If I have an emotional need for some understanding and comfort,  I should be able to ask for it in a healthy and mature way.    Many times I can't ask for it in a healthy and mature way because it's scary.  I don't have the skills.   I don't know what to ask for.    I think with disordered skills, or maladaptive skills, or with a person who has BPD or the traits of it, getting needs met becomes a wrestling match.    a needs entitlement war.

Some other times, though, I felt like you described. Like what she was saying didn't make sense.Was abusive. Hurtful.  In those cases, I completely can relate to you not wanting to admit fault where there isn't. And darn yes, it appears in those times she wanted me to admit something she believed about me that I didn't see as such.

that needs entitlement war often looked like that.    one of us had the need to be right to the point where the other HAD to be wrong.    backing away from those circular conversations was the best, and yeah the kind thing to do.    staying up in the churn of a conversation going nowhere only added to the hurt feelings on both sides.

It was/is important to back out of the circular conversation gently.    not to add any fuel to the fire.    

my two cents.

[Buzz2]

Hi Sardinia,

I am new to the boards, too, and just wanted to thank you for posting about this.  It is something I'm struggling with/dealing with as well and it really helped to read the responses you received.

[Sardinia]

Wow, thank you to everyone for the input. I'm learning a lot already. I looked up JADE and found this: www.outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

... .I do all of these things until I'm exhausted, and he counters every one by misinterpreting it, making a new complaint, saying he doesn't believe me, etc. I guess what's really happening is he feels a certain way, and is trying to express it, but the way he does it is by criticizing me... .and then I try to deflect that criticism and take control of the narrative. Which to him feels like invalidation, maybe. It's a waste of energy and frustrates both of us. I will have to start practicing this.

I like the way Babyducks frames limits as protecting your values. In this case, I value civility and respect in our relationship, and when he says something that I find really unfair and critical, I'm at risk of breaching those values by calling him an f-ing a-hole. Which has happened more than I care to admit. 

We're going to counseling this Thursday—we've been before, but it's been a while. The counselor is excellent and knows both of us, but it's expensive and hard to get there with our schedules. I'm hoping we can look at the big picture and address the cycles that are repeating themselves rather than get lost in the weeds of any particular argument.

[braveSun]

I guess what's really happening is he feels a certain way, and is trying to express it, but the way he does it is by criticizing me... .and then I try to deflect that criticism and take control of the narrative. Which to him feels like invalidation, maybe. It's a waste of energy and frustrates both of us. I will have to start practicing this.

Probably, yes. It's not productive when we get into arguing.

I take this as my cue. I've noticed with my spouse, over time she herself recognizes that 'we won't get anywhere further now'. She'll welcome the time off. Than later she might talk from a calmer place or she might just not want to talk more for the time being. That doesn't mean it's easy to have a productive conversation while calmer either.

But I have been surprised at times when I did use SET and she said something like, 'that's all I need', 'I'm done venting', 'I'm good now'. All I had done is validating her experience and sharing empathy. She than would cooperate with the truth part.

I tend to need to fall back on something, when I try to not JADE. I try to turn my approach into SET.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I'm glad you're reaching out for help. I'm also glad that braveSun talked about SET. I think it's a great thing to try. I also hope your counseling session helps.

I've been divorced from my ex (uBPD\NPD) for a few years now. I've been in trauma therapy for a few years as well. The more I healed, the more I noticed something about my ex and our interactions. It seemed to me that when he was feeling upset or some other intense emotion and he tried to talk to me about something, it came out badly... like how "x" was my fault and what I should be thinking/feeling and so on. I think some of this could be projection - more than likely he was probably projecting his feelings onto me because he didn't want to and/or know how to deal with them himself.

I think this is where boundaries will help. When you start to feel upset and that he's criticizing you, maybe let him know you need to take a break from the conversation (possibly to resume at another time) because of how you feel and then walk away for awhile. Maybe get some fresh air. Do you think something like this may help? Then later on try to discuss the issue when you're both more calm.

With my ex, it also felt like we were speaking different languages. That we had different meanings for the same words/concepts. For example, he claimed I abused him all these years by forcing him to make decisions. That's not how I would define abuse. I learned that his reality is different than mine. It's taking me a long time to accept that. It's not easy. What I'm trying to say here is that maybe you both have different realities, in a way. He seems to believe he's communicating with you and you feel he's criticizing you. I completely understand that.

I think what it comes down to is that he's probably feeling something intense and uncomfortable for him and his way of dealing with it comes across as criticizing to you, especially if he feels abandoned and/or rejected. Going through this with my ex reminded me of being around a toddler (in all seriousness and not to make light of it). Toddlers aren't good at using the "right" words to express how they feel. Sometimes they'll say "I hate you" when they really mean "I feel mad because you won't give me what I want". This helps me to not take his words personally. I try to figure out what he may be feeling under all those hurtful words and it helps me find a way to deal with the issue more constructively.

For example, sometimes he'll write a message to me and include every single nasty word he can think of, calling me every horrible name in the book and then some.  I'll rack my brain trying to figure out what I did to set him off and then realize chances are it had nothing to do with me or I somehow triggered him in a big way (note: he has a LOT of unresolved abandonment/rejection issues). In this case, I gathered he was probably feeling angry and I'm his "favorite target." By doing a little bit of detective work based on what he was writing to me about and knowing what I know about his past (we were together for almost 20 years), I was able to figure out he was probably feeling a loss of control when I made a decision without him (he didn't respond to my initial message about it and I had to make a timely decision) and it "freaked him out". He deals with it by "yelling" at me for every single transgression he can possibly think of from the last twenty years. Trying to explain to him why I made the decision without him (JADE) was about as helpful as talking to a brick wall. He changes the topic. Using SET would be more helpful in that it would validate his feelings about it and probably calm him down. It seems that with him, his feelings are the same as "facts". So when he claims something to be "true" or a "fact", it's really about his feelings. Since we use a parenting application to communicate, I have no real idea if he's calmed down or not other than if he continues to write or if he stops writing.

I hope this helps.

[babyducks]

Hi Sardinia,

I guess what's really happening is he feels a certain way, and is trying to express it, but the way he does it is by criticizing me... .and then I try to deflect that criticism and take control of the narrative. Which to him feels like invalidation, maybe. It's a waste of energy and frustrates both of us. I will have to start practicing this.

I think this is a really good insight.    I like your awareness.    and I think you are completely correct.   

pwBPD view their feelings/emotions as caused by someone or something else, and that the way to change how they feel is to change these external people and things.   hence the criticisms.    the idea that we can control, manage, change how we feel by changing how we think and act is NOT how pwBPD process life.

I'm going to borrow your example:

I'm at risk of breaching those values by calling him an f-ing a-hole. Which has happened more than I care to admit. 

if I don't like how I feel after calling a person I care about a f-ing a-hole, if I don't like what it does to the relationship, I can change that.    I can change that by how I think and act.   I can put a boundary around that, a limit.    I won't engage in a conversation that is devolving into an argument,   I won't continue a circular argument until it's in the weeds.    I will safely, and gently take a time out.   Maybe find a set of safe words that stop.    My safe words were "I'm going to pause here and make a cup of tea and think about this some more".    They were true,   I was going to think about it.    and I like tea.    I avoided an abandonment panic by calling it a pause... .I didn't say "I am never talking to you again about this you bloody jerk."   I am trying to de-escalate the conflict.

how are you doing with all this information?    any questions?

'ducks

[Sardinia]

All the information is helpful... .a lot of acronyms that should come in handy when I need them. I'm appreciate the articles too. My goal here is to do things that work and stop contributing to the cycle, and hopefully to also get my husband into therapy.

By the way, my husband has not been diagnosed with anything other than chronic depression, and I don't want to amateur-diagnose him—so I'll just say he does a lot of things that people with BPD do. However, his sister was diagnosed with BPD, and his father, who raised them, almost certainly has BPD. Both have serious substance abuse problems. His mother left when he was a toddler, and died when he was in his teens, which left him with a strong fear of abandonment. So using words like "pause" or "a break from this conversation" that make it clear I'm not leaving leaving is important because when that fear gets triggered he goes into a world of pain and rage. It's hard to stay calm and not get an angry tone when someone's berating me, but I swear it's gotten easier since I started learning about BPD and recognizing what's happening. I'm so grateful that I found this site.

[pearlsw]

My goal here is to do things that work and stop contributing to the cycle, and hopefully to also get my husband into therapy.

By the way, my husband has not been diagnosed with anything other than chronic depression, and I don't want to amateur-diagnose him—so I'll just say he does a lot of things that people with BPD do.

I swear it's gotten easier since I started learning about BPD and recognizing what's happening. I'm so grateful that I found this site.

Hi Sardinia,

This sounds great! Yes, just knowing what we are dealing and getting to feel less confused and overwhelmed can make a huge difference!

By the way, all I know for sure is that my SO has depression as well, and now that he is taking medication for it, and plans to for a long time, he is doing much better, but not entirely. He still has some behavioral issues that could use some professional attention as I don't want to take on too much. I can support, but not do the work of changing/adjusting for him.

Anyway, a lot of us just deal with the symptoms, the behaviors, and don't have an official diagnosis to go off of. In fact many of our partners may not even meet the threshold for a diagnosis, but even a few of these traits can be a lot to deal with! My partner has 4 BPD traits that I can recognize, though he took an online test once and I was surprised to see he had/acknowledged many more if not all of them! But as I say, just the 4 I notice are tough!

You are free to post on what topics you'd like to, but it is great to hear about "what works"! Keep posting and sharing - really does help all of us!

What other tools or insights here are making a difference for you?

sincerely, pearl.