Conversation attempting to practice validating and reduce JADEing

[Woodchuck]

Below is a conversation that I have had with my uBPDw over the last few days.  I know that I am not perfect at eliminating the JADEing, as you will see.  Any feedback on how I could better communicate would be great!  The only things that have been changed are names to protect the innocent and a few spelling errors.

Me: Did the kids lose access to wifi/electronics?

Wife: Yes, the host turned the wifi off yesterday

Me: Why?

Wife: Because her husband needs it for work and the kids were draining it

Me: That would have been nice to now so I would know not to expect to be able to get ahold of them

Wife:
   The kids knew she told them
Yesterday.
Me:
   I didn’t know.  I tried messaging this morning and this evening and nothing went through.
Wife:
   Sorry.  I didn’t have time to think about it.
Me:
   Are the kids interested in calling?
   There is another crack in the shower and black mold behind the tile.
   Are the kids interested in calling?
   ?
   I was thinking about you.  I hope you are having a good say.
   Day
Wife:
   Friday is always a good day.  Ty for taking care of the pets.

Wife: A house divided against itself cannot stand.
   
Me:
   That is true
Wife:
   Where are my keys
Me:
   Which keys?
   I took the camry
Wife:
   Nm
Me:
   Ok
   Do you need anything from the store?
Wife:
   No
Me:
   Are you angry with me about something?
Wife:
   We can talk later.
Me:
   Ok
   When are you planning on meeting with the youth pastor and the pastor or whoever you are wanting to meet with?
Wife:
   About what?
Me:
   The concerns or issues that you have with them or the program.  
Wife:
   I already did.  None of your buisness anyway.
Me:
   How is it none of my business.  It concerns our children.  
Wife:
   I have nothing further to say.
   If you wanted to know you would have brought your happy ass to camp.
Me:
   I would have liked to go.  
   So you are not going to allow me to be involved at all?
   ?
   Are you planning on pulling the kids out of the group?
   ?
Wife:
   I told you my plan is to attend everything.
Me:
   I did not know that you had met with anyone.  I feel like I am not valued as an equal parent.  
Wife:
   I feel like you are a backstabbing traitor.
Me:
   I am sorry you feel that way. I don’t understand why you feel that way.  
Wife:
   Because you chose to side with The youth pastor that I should not go on the trip and that it was unnecessary parent supervision.
   Then when I explained my feelings about the “hand signal” you again took the side of its no big deal.
   You undermine me as a parent.
   Hugging you is empty and meaningless because I know that their is no safety to be found in you.
Me:
   I am sorry that you feel that I am taking sides and I can understand how that would make you feel the way you do.  The views that I have are my own views and are not based on what The youth pastor or the pastor or anyone from the church thinks.  
Wife:
   A bunch of meaningless pretty words.
Me:
   If that is what you choose to believe.  My reality is that I had reservations about you going and voiced those to you but ultimately put those aside as I felt it was important for the kids to be able to go.   Additionally, I did not hear any concerns about the hand signal that was discussed prior to the trip.  If you had talked with me about it, we may have been able to find a resolution.  I am truly sorry that you feel hurt and empty.  I know that does not feel good at all.  
Wife:
   Voiced them to me as well as at least The youth pastor.
   Yup more pretty and meaningless words.
Me:
   I am sorry you are angry.  
   So your plan is to just exclude me?
   I am doing my best to be understanding of you thinking differently from me.  I am having a hard time understanding why my views or opinions seem to not hold any value.  
   ?
Wife:
   I have nothing to say to you.  You are not trustworthy.
Me:
   How am I not trustworthy?
   I don’t understand
   ?
   So your plan is to just exclude me?
Wife:
   You can do what you want.  I don’t trust you to share my thoughts with you
Me:
   We still have two children
Wife:
   Indeed.
Me:
   ?
   I don’t understand why you get so angry when I don’t see or do things your way.  I am not you.  
   ?
Wife:
   Clearly.
Me:
   What am I missing?
Wife:
   I do not trust you!
Me:
   Based on?
Wife:
   You going to the pastor alone to trash talk me.
   Not telling me you had done so>
   Telling The youth pastor that you didn’t think it was needed for me to go and we didn’t see eye to eye.
Me:
   I am sorry that you feel I was trash talking you.  That was not my intent at all.
Wife:
   No you’re intent is always about you and getting what you need or want.
Me:
   You can choose to believe that if you want and in a way that is very true.  I need good, sound counsel on how to deal with things as I don’t know how to deal with things at times.  
   I want to be the best father and husband I can be and seek out help when I feel like I need it.  
Wife:
   Good for you.
Me:
   Is there someone else you would rather I talked to?
Wife:
   Nope.
Me:
   Then I don’t understand
   Do you expect me to not talk to anyone?
Wife:
   I hVE NOTHING TO SAY TO YOU.
Me:
   Have I used any of the conversations that I have had against you?
   ?
   I don’t understand what you want
   ?
   I need you to communicate with me
   ?
   Are you planning on excluding me in any decisions pertaining to the kids?
Wife:
   You are free to do as you like
Me:
   That does not answer the question
   Each of us can clearly do what we want.  The question is, are you going to exclude me from any decisions pertaining to our children?
Wife:
   You make decisions all the time.
Me:
   ?
Wife:
   Last night you made the decision to feed them Macdonalds.
Me:
   You know that is not what I am referring to.  
   ?
Wife:
   I will not be talking to you about camp.
Me:
   That has nothing to do with the question
   ?
   I guess I will take the silence as a yes, you will be excluding me
   I feel like you are making things much more difficult than they need to be.  
   ?
   I really just want things to be the way they should be.  
Wife:
   I do not trust you.
Me:
   ?
   You don’t trust that I want things to be the way they should be?
Wife:
   I do not trust you to speak fairly about me or anything I say.
Me:
   I am sorry you feel that way.
   ?
   I feel like you don’t value me as an equal in any capacity.  
Wife:
   I very clearly told you that I do not trust you.
   You do not value my thoughts, opinions or feelings at all.
Me:
   Why do you feel that way?
Wife:
   Because no matter what I say you fail to see things that I see and act like I am overreacting.  Well guess what I talked to other people and they do validate my thoughts.
Me:
    I am sorry that you don’t feel validated.  I know that I have not done a good job at validating your thoughts.   Your thoughts and feelings are valid even when they do not match mine.  
Wife:
   I don’t believe you.
Me:
   ?
   You don’t believe what?
Wife:
   Anything you say.
Me:
   ?
   ?
   Validating and agreeing are not synonymous.  
   I don’t understand why you feel like I should always see things your way.  
   ?
   So there is just going to be silence?
Wife:
   I think that you should trust me and believe in me.
   As it stands you pretty much always choose an opposing opinion.  I think just because you hate me and do not want me to be right.
Me:
   I am sorry you feel that way.   I do not hate you.   I do know that we don’t see eye to eye on many things and that is very frustrating.   What does it mean to you for me to trust in you and believe in you?
Wife:
   It means when I say that the hand signal undermines my parental authority you think about it instead of just standing up for The youth pastor and acknowledge that it was wrong and an inappropriate way to treat me!
   You are the only person of many who did not!
Me:
   I understand that you feel like I stood up for The youth pastor and I can see how that would be hurtful.  
Wife:
   More bull___!
Me:
   ?
Wife:
   What he did was wrong and everyone else agrees with me except you!
Me:
   That is really an issue between you and The youth pastor.  I had no idea that you even had an issue with anything until you returned.  
   I understand that you think that I have an opinion on whether it was right or wrong.  I really don’t.  I simply told you that if I was the one going on the trip that I don’t believe that I would have a problem with it.   That does not believe that it is right or wrong.   I can understand and respect that you view it differently.  I think that the issue could have been avoided if the concerns that you had about it had been addressed prior to the trip.  
Wife:
   I didn’t have a problem with it until I realized they truly believe they have the right to usurp a parents authority.
Me:
   You asked me how I would feel if I was in your shoes and I answered honestly about how I think I would feel.   Just because I feel one way does not mean that I think the way you feel is wrong, it is just different.  I don’t see it as a right/wrong issue, but that is just how I personally feel.  
Wife:
   I knew there would be no need of the hand signal.  However I was greatly offended when they began acting like I was a threat to my children and “checking on them.”
Me:
   Ok, well I was not there and I do not know any details about anything so it is really quite impossible for me to even say how I would feel in a particular situation.  I am basing how i feel off of what was discussed at dinner prior to the trip.
Wife:
   Yup because you don’t trust me or my judgments!  
Me:
   ?
Wife:
   You don’t listen to me and you don’t agree with me and you do not care about how I feel!
Me:
   I was not there, I do not know what went on, therefore I cannot make any ‘judgments’ or really have an opinion.  I do understand that you are hurt and that you feel like you were wronged and I am very sorry that you are experiencing that hurt.  
   I understand you don’t feel listened to and that you feel that I don’t care about how you feel.  If you can help me understand what you need to feel heard and cared about, I would appreciate it.  
Wife:
   the youth pastor and his wife did not hear me when I voiced clear concern about S14s relationship and the trip.  They did everything could to make sure I was seperated from S14 and unable to supervise and put S14 in the same class as the girl he likes to teach VBS.  They undermined and supported S14s relationship and she thinks it is all just fun and games.  I know full well you have zero problem with it and also think S14 is responsible enough to be mature and make the right choices.  I am going to disagree with that!
   Then they did not provide anywhere near adequate supervision themselves.
   I am sick of hearing “he is a good kid”. Guess what that doesn’t mean he is without temptation and able to withstand it without support and parenting!
   
   This was I am sure the highlight for Youth pastors wife who thinks it is all just so “cute.”  (this is in reference to a photo that was posted online of S14 and the girl that he likes)
Me:
   Why are you sick of hearing that he is a good kid?   I would think that would be validating to the job you have done as a parent.  
Wife:
   I know he is a good kid.  Good kids still make mistakes!
   Good kids still need parents!
Me:
   We all make mistakes.  We are all human.  

Wife:
   Involved parents!
Me:
   I agree
Wife:
   Ya well I plan to provide a strong parental presence and be involved!
Me:
   What do you mean?
Wife:
   I am going to bed.
Me:
   I am sorry that you felt/feel undermined and unsupported.  
   I need your help to understand what you need to feel supported and heard and cared about.  
   You should ask S14 about how involved I have been with him about relationships/temptation etc.  
   I feel like I am not allowed to be involved with or have much of any say in the kids spiritual or educational growth.
   ?
   Are we back to not talking?
   ?
Wife:
   You are as involved as you choose to be.  Nobody is stopping you.
Me:
   ?
   I don’t know what you mean
Wife:
   Who is stopping you from
Having an influence on your kids spiritual development?
   Hell as far as education they are in public school just like YOU wanted.
Me:
   I guess a more accurate way for me to put it is that I feel like the only way for there to be any unity in parenting is to agree with your thoughts/ideas/feelings and discard my own thoughts/ideas/feelings if they don’t match yours.  
Wife:
   I am sorry you feel that way.  I am not going to change my thoughts feelings or opinions because you disagree with them.  You are entitled to have your own and I am entitled to have my own.
Me:
   I don’t feel like you value or respect my opinions or feelings if they are not in line with yours.  
   If I don’t agree with you then I am wrong
Wife:
   In general I don’t value or respect your opinions because you choose to constantly make the choice to opose mine just because you don’t want me to be right.


Me:
   I am sorry that you feel that way.  The way that I see it is we just have very different views on things.  My views do not have anything to do with you personally but I understand that you feel that I am just trying to be difficult and I can understand how that would be hurtful.  
   Does that make sense?
Wife:
   I believe your views come from your warped upbringing.
Me:
   ?
   What views?
   I don’t understand what views you are referring to.  
Wife:
   I can not explain that to you!
Me:
   ?
   Then how am I supposed to understand?
   You can’t help me understand at all?
   I guess not.  I hope you have a good day at work.  
   There is nothing you can do to help me understand?
   I guess not.  If you come up with anything, please let me know.  
Wife:
   It is not our job to be our kids friends, it is our job to parent them.  You seem to think that taking them out to eat, and buying them junk food and talking to them is all that is needed.  You seem to think they are capable of setting their own limits on electronics use and making responsible choices.  You think that making rules and not just trusting them with everything is responsible parenting.
Me:
   I am sorry you see things that way.  
   How is any of that related to my childhood?
Wife:
   Because you are trying to parent without the control your parents provided.
Me:
   That is true.  I am trying to take a more balanced approach.  
Wife:
   Balanced was the way I was raised and it does not mean lack of rules.
Me:
   I agree
Wife:
   Which is why you supply a phone with zero rules.
Me:
   What rules do you think should be in place?
Wife:
   Hmm maybe things like no apps unless they are approved.  Set amount of use allowed etc.
Me:
   Ok. I believe I have done both of those.  
Wife:
   Well you didn’t communicate them to me and I was the one who had to say no electronics upstairs or in the basement.
Me:
   I am open to any suggestions you have.    I have tried multiple apps to set limits.   I have also set limits on the phone staying downstairs and limits on when he can text.  As soon as the new parental controls are available in the operating system i plan to use them.  I have also taken electronics away multiple times when the rules have not been followed.  11 had her ipod taken away for several months.  

[Notwendy]

I can't tell if this is by text or face to face but it is so circular it's a ball of yarn. Learning to use new relationship skills is like a toddler learning to walk. You're going to fall, wobble, but you have to take the first steps to learn. Be proud of taking the first steps and not discouraged by the wobbling or falling. It takes practice and you will get better with practice.

I won't address line per line but have some general suggestions. Two things that I see are stonewalling, dismissive and critical comments from your wife. These are forms of verbal abuse and while I don't support tolerating abuse, in these types of conversation a person can say them when frustrated. When she says " we have nothing to discuss" " I have nothing to say to you" the conversation is over. If you keep talking, you will just keep going in circles. Once you hear this, say, I understand and leave the conversation. This doesn't mean you should not ever bring up difficult topics, but at this point, it is not effective.

Watch your own emotions. Once you are emotionally triggered, your ability to maintain a conversation like this is diminished. This is also the time for you to end the conversation politely. Do not use "you" statements. Simply say " I am not able to continue speaking at this time, I need to take a break and continue this later" and go take some time out for yourself. She may follow you and yell, but you just repeat the same thing over and over- and remove yourself from the conversation.

Stop kitchen sinking. This means a conversation where you throw in everything but the kitchen sink from the past, present, future and a bunch of topics. This is a recipe for a mess. Keep your conversations brief, to the point, and on one topic. The first topic was was the internet off? She gave you an answer. Then you start with the "it would have been nice... ." and you two were off to the races. Don't interpret, don't make meaning. Stay on topic. Was the internet off? Yes. "Ok thank you for letting me know". To begin to reduce the drama, you need to reduce your drama. You do not change her- you change you.

Do not discuss anything emotional by text. That's too open to misinterpretation.

This is a lot to learn but take these first steps.

[Cat Familiar]

Great comments from Notwendy on this text exchange!

It's very hard to have a conversation with someone who repeatedly tells you that you don't care about them, their feelings, their thoughts--then turns around and tells you that they don't trust you. I've certainly experienced that with my husband and what it did was to make me try even harder to reach out and want to show that I did indeed care and that I wanted to be supportive.

Like what happened here with your wife, Woodchuck, those attempts to connect just added fuel to the fire.

The overarching theme I get is that you're trying to be in the loop about what is going on with your wife and kids at the camp and she is pushing you away and being critical that you spoke with the youth pastor and takes that as a betrayal. In her mind, any divergence from her ideas means that you don't support her or that you're on someone else's "side" rather than the mere fact that you have a different opinion.

I see trouble looming on the horizon as your wife seems to think somehow she is going to be able to control your children's behavior by inserting herself into their lives and supervising things from up close. With a 14 year old son, it will be a challenge for her to try and out maneuver teenage hormones and I can see battles up ahead between those two.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with Notwendy that you need to save important conversations for in person and leave texting to matter-of-fact information.

You're doing good work trying to validate her. Validation works best before pwBPD start becoming dysregulated. Otherwise, when that happens, you get the "pretty words" type of response.

[Woodchuck]

I can't tell if this is by text or face to face but it is so circular it's a ball of yarn. Learning to use new relationship skills is like a toddler learning to walk. You're going to fall, wobble, but you have to take the first steps to learn. Be proud of taking the first steps and not discouraged by the wobbling or falling. It takes practice and you will get better with practice.

I won't address line per line but have some general suggestions. Two things that I see are stonewalling, dismissive and critical comments from your wife. These are forms of verbal abuse and while I don't support tolerating abuse, in these types of conversation a person can say them when frustrated. When she says " we have nothing to discuss" " I have nothing to say to you" the conversation is over. If you keep talking, you will just keep going in circles. Once you hear this, say, I understand and leave the conversation. This doesn't mean you should not ever bring up difficult topics, but at this point, it is not effective.

Watch your own emotions. Once you are emotionally triggered, your ability to maintain a conversation like this is diminished. This is also the time for you to end the conversation politely. Do not use "you" statements. Simply say " I am not able to continue speaking at this time, I need to take a break and continue this later" and go take some time out for yourself. She may follow you and yell, but you just repeat the same thing over and over- and remove yourself from the conversation.

Stop kitchen sinking. This means a conversation where you throw in everything but the kitchen sink from the past, present, future and a bunch of topics. This is a recipe for a mess. Keep your conversations brief, to the point, and on one topic. The first topic was was the internet off? She gave you an answer. Then you start with the "it would have been nice... ." and you two were off to the races. Don't interpret, don't make meaning. Stay on topic. Was the internet off? Yes. "Ok thank you for letting me know". To begin to reduce the drama, you need to reduce your drama. You do not change her- you change you.

Do not discuss anything emotional by text. That's too open to misinterpretation.

This is a lot to learn but take these first steps.

Notwendy -
Thank you for the input.  This was all via text messages.  This is how most of our communication goes.  I guess I see it as good in a way as it can be referred back to see exactly what was said and under the circumstances, that may be beneficial.  With that being said, I do understand that a lot can be misunderstood when communicating this way.  It is almost impossible to get her to sit down and have a 'grown up' conversation face to face.  If we are talking 'face to face' she will typically refuse to look at me and either have her face hidden behind her phone or computer or buried in a pillow while laying on her bed.  
I know that I should just walk away when she says that she has nothing to say.  I personally find this extremely difficult.  I need to develop a way to 'just let it go'.  
This conversation was established over the period of a week.  The first part of the conversation was during the first few days that they were gone at the camp they went to.  Where she states that 'a house divided against itself cannot stand' started this past Sunday and has kind of progress over the last few days.  I can see how it looks like everything is just one big conversation and can look like everything was being thrown into the mix.  . I will keep working on me and trying to adapt my communication skills.

Woodchuck

[Woodchuck]

Great comments from Notwendy on this text exchange!

It's very hard to have a conversation with someone who repeatedly tells you that you don't care about them, their feelings, their thoughts--then turns around and tells you that they don't trust you. I've certainly experienced that with my husband and what it did was to make me try even harder to reach out and want to show that I did indeed care and that I wanted to be supportive.

Like what happened here with your wife, Woodchuck, those attempts to connect just added fuel to the fire.

The overarching theme I get is that you're trying to be in the loop about what is going on with your wife and kids at the camp and she is pushing you away and being critical that you spoke with the youth pastor and takes that as a betrayal. In her mind, any divergence from her ideas means that you don't support her or that you're on someone else's "side" rather than the mere fact that you have a different opinion.

I see trouble looming on the horizon as your wife seems to think somehow she is going to be able to control your children's behavior by inserting herself into their lives and supervising things from up close. With a 14 year old son, it will be a challenge for her to try and out maneuver teenage hormones and I can see battles up ahead between those two.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with Notwendy that you need to save important conversations for in person and leave texting to matter-of-fact information.

You're doing good work trying to validate her. Validation works best before pwBPD start becoming dysregulated. Otherwise, when that happens, you get the "pretty words" type of response.

Cat - I know exactly what you mean by trying to connect and it just adding fuel to the fire.  On the other side though, If I don't try to connect, then I am accused of abandoning.  So either way it is more or less the same result.  It may be healthier for me to not put the effort in to connect.

You are spot on how she sees things black and white.  I am not allowed to have a different opinion even though she states that I can think or do whatever I want.  There is absolutely no working together or compromising.  Along with that, there are many half truths and just outright lies that she believes.  Speaking with our children about how the camp went, I get a completely different set of facts about how things went. 

I too see trouble looming as the children get older but I am not going to try to rescue or protect her from the bed she is making.  My parents were ironically very controlling and all that did was push me away from them.  I am attempting to build a mentoring type relationship with both of the children, especially our son in hopes that I can help him learn from his mistakes and make it so he will feel like he can talk to me about anything.  As I told him this morning, I fully expect him to make mistakes.  It is more about how he responds/reacts to making mistakes than the mistake itself.  So far, he has greatly impressed me with how he will take responsibility for things when he messes up.  Anyway, if she wants to rule with an iron fist, she is just going to push the kids away from her and I can see that causing major problems as they get older.  I fear that she will end up 'painting them black' once they are 'legal' and can tell her no and walk away.  That is her choice and she can deal with it. I am sure that I will continue to hear that I am not supporting her ideas and views by not telling the kids that she is right or by not involving myself the way that she is.  She told me that she is going to be going to all youth group functions, or I could go in her place.  I told her that I did not think that was necessary or appropriate for the reasons that she was going and that I would not involve myself in encouraging that.  I understand that is going into the Explaining realm a bit but I think that it is important that I communicate what my intentions are.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

It may be that neither of you have the skills to have these kinds of conversations. I was at that point with my H. It wasn't over child care- he was happy to let that be my domain, but just about anything personal between us. I kept trying over and over, until one day I just could not anymore. It wasn't any attempt on my part to game play by stopping trying, I just felt it was futile.

I had tried many times to get him to do marital counseling and he refused. He's a bit like your wife in the sense that he maintains he knows everything, and his reply was " all MC leads to divorce" but I think behind his bravado statements was fear that if all were out on the table, it probably would lead to divorce. Underlying your wife's know it all and stonewalling statements could be some fear too.

Once I did convince him to see my counselor with me, and he walked out because he decided we were ganging up on him. I don't think we were , but that is how he felt. So when we got to the point where I felt we could not have a conversation, I said that I think we need help. He reluctantly agreed but on some conditions- the counselor had to be committed to keeping marriages together so divorce would not be discussed. The counselor had to be neutral- someone I had not ever spoken to- so there would be no preconceived ideas about him. He has issues with a critical and triggering father, so the counselor had to be female or he would be triggered by that.

Ours was brilliant. I had hoped she would counsel my H on his behavior but instead, she got all over me for mine and seemed to be colluding with my H. At first, I got angry, I felt it was unfair. She "diagnosed" me with co-dependency and he appeared to get off the hook! Of course all our issues were my fault!    but in retrospect it was a brilliant approach because had she done that with him, I know he would have walked out. So when we got into these types of discussions, she would work on both of us as if she was "coaching me". She also "prescribed" me to attend 12 step co-dependency groups which were in the evenings. My H didn't like me going out in the evenings and it was very difficult for me to do things on my own but he had no choice about this since the counselor recommended it. The more I was doing things for me, the less I was focusing on him and enabling.

We are one part of the drama. We can work on our parts. I wouldn't fuel the fire by admitting you were the bad guy to your wife, but you could suggest seeing a counselor to "help us with our communication" and if that counselor gets all over your case, instead of hers, then you may have found a wise one.

[Notwendy]

Woodchuck, your kids are old enough to see that your wife is difficult to deal with. They can have a different kind of relationship with you. The more you deal with your own skills, the better you will be able to role model skills to them.

You should protect them from abuse but you can not shield them from all of their mother's behavior. It is what it is. Growing up, adults kept trying to tell me I should "love my mother" but she was emotionally abusive and controlling.

I have raised teenagers and they can be a handful. Even if one is not a controlling parent, they can push their limits. They need to do this to become their own individual people. It is normal. As a parent, we need to keep them safe from themselves with regards to rules, no drinking, keep your grades up, but we can't control all their choices. They may want to dye their hair green, or wear something weird, but within the limits of safety we need to let them be who they are ( and they probably don't know that yet).

Your kids may not like your wife- and you can not control that. To be honest, as a teen, I hated my BPD mother. I had no respect for her as a teen. She disciplined me with fear and threats because that was all she had that halfway worked. But what worked best for her was disciplining me through my father. I did love him. That worked very well.

Now as a more mature person, I see her with more compassion. I know she has a mental disorder. But when you raise a kid on fear instead of love, their isn't a good bond. I have tried to maintain the best relationship I can with her but it is limited due to her capacity to have a relationship. Compared to your wife, she is way more affected by BPD. She would not have been able to hold a job and was limited as a caregiver for children.  I sense that your wife has a different bond with the kids, and there is love there.

Do the best you can for your kids. They are old enough to sense the difference between their parents. I know you want to protect them from how you grew up but the mother they have is the one they have. She's probably doing the best she knows to do too.

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck, your kids are old enough to see that your wife is difficult to deal with. They can have a different kind of relationship with you. The more you deal with your own skills, the better you will be able to role model skills to them.

You should protect them from abuse but you can not shield them from all of their mother's behavior. It is what it is. Growing up, adults kept trying to tell me I should "love my mother" but she was emotionally abusive and controlling.

I have raised teenagers and they can be a handful. Even if one is not a controlling parent, they can push their limits. They need to do this to become their own individual people. It is normal. As a parent, we need to keep them safe from themselves with regards to rules, no drinking, keep your grades up, but we can't control all their choices. They may want to dye their hair green, or wear something weird, but within the limits of safety we need to let them be who they are ( and they probably don't know that yet).

Your kids may not like your wife- and you can not control that. To be honest, as a teen, I hated my BPD mother. I had no respect for her as a teen. She disciplined me with fear and threats because that was all she had that halfway worked. But what worked best for her was disciplining me through my father. I did love him. That worked very well.

Now as a more mature person, I see her with more compassion. I know she has a mental disorder. But when you raise a kid on fear instead of love, their isn't a good bond. I have tried to maintain the best relationship I can with her but it is limited due to her capacity to have a relationship. Compared to your wife, she is way more affected by BPD. She would not have been able to hold a job and was limited as a caregiver for children.  I sense that your wife has a different bond with the kids, and there is love there.

Do the best you can for your kids. They are old enough to sense the difference between their parents. I know you want to protect them from how you grew up but the mother they have is the one they have. She's probably doing the best she knows to do too.

Notwendy -
They are definitely old enough to see that she is difficult.  It is a hard line to tow between validating how they feel and not vilifying their mom.  As you saw in the conversation, my wife claims that she grew up in a 'balanced' home.  If that is the case, then why does she not enjoy being affectionate with them?  I don't know how many times my daughter has approached her to give her a good night hug and her mom tells her that she doesn't want one.  Who does that, especially to their own kids.  It breaks my heart!  The way I see it, at least with my son as he is going on 15 is that he is able to make his own choices and be guided as he navigates life.  If I try to nail everything down for him, he will be ill prepared for the real world.  For example, he is not allowed to have his phone in his room.  I found it in his room one night and took it.  I received an email from him the following morning telling me how sorry he was and that he could not control himself and did not want his phone back until he moved out.  I could tell between the email and talking to him later that he was genuinely sorry.  I explained to him that not giving his phone back to him until he moved out would not be a good idea.  I told him that he needs to take the next few years to establish good habits and boundaries etc and that I was there to help him.  This is what my wife considers just being his friend.  I told him that I was going to take his phone for 2 weeks and then give it back and followed through with that.  I don't think that the children fear their mother but they do not have a close relationship with her.  What makes it really bad is my son communicates that he really wants a close relationship with his mom but believes that she is convinced that no one likes her/they like me better etc.  He thinks about it to the point of when I ask them if they would like to stop and get an ice cream cone on our way home from shopping (just me and the kids) he says no and when I ask him why, he tells me that mom will be mad because I am just trying to do fun things with them.

As far as counselors go, we have been to many.  There have been multiple times where I have told her that if she wants to go, she has to pick the counselor.  That way she can't tell me that I just picked one that would agree with me.  Every counselor as far as I can remember has been pretty decent but she has found something with them that she does not like and so we stop going.  I have seen several individually as well and that usually is only slightly helpful as they only get my side of things and have a hard time believing half the things I tell them.  I can definitely see how we (the nons) are part of the drama.  I think I realized this last year when I realized that she was better when I was finding everything I could to validate.  I really did a great job, or at least it seemed like I did as she was more or less happy most of the time but the amount of validation that it took was absolutely exhausting and I eventually got burned out.  I am sure this is in large part because the validation really only goes one way and I did not understand nearly as well as I do now how her mind works.

Woodchuck

[Cat Familiar]

You are preparing your children to be independent and to make their own decisions. Your wife misinterprets this as wanting to be their friend. She seems to be more of the authoritarian type of parent. And it's very sad that she rebuffs your daughter for asking for a good night hug.

It's also sad when a parent gets into a "poor me" mode and thinks no one likes her and that the kids like you better. Well of course they do, she's too busy being self-absorbed and needy, while you're paying attention to who your children are and trying to be supportive of them.

There's often quite an extreme narcissism within pwBPD. And as you experienced, your wife loved the excessive validation that you tried last year. She didn't think to return the favor and you were worn out by the effort of trying so hard.

What I've recently understood about validation is that if I have to look hard and think hard for something to validate, it's a lot of work. And often it's no more effective than "throwaway" validation, like a smile, saying "good job," "that's smart," "great idea," "very creative," "what a good thought." It's like using grease to lubricate a creaky hinge--doesn't take much thought or effort and certainly doesn't wear you out, like what you were likely doing before.

And I'm doing it, not to make my husband feel better, but rather to make my life better so that I don't become "the enemy" in his mind. PwBPD so often have those uncomfortable internal emotions that are seeking a target to vent upon and as long as I stay at his side in "the comrade" position, I don't put myself in front in "the target" position. It all comes from selfish motivation on my part--wanting my life to be comfortable.