Giving myself a deadline

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I think I am going to give myself a deadline.  I am think for January or May of next year.  That time I am going to do a serious reevaluation of my marriage.

Today I went to a church food bank.  I am worried that we will run out of food before he gets paid.  I had gone a couple times before.  He doesn't like the food banks, makes him feel poor, etc. That I went behind his back after he told me not to do it.  That if I went behind his back for this, I didn't use my head, didn't think that it would "offend" him so that means I would take a di** behind his back.

That disagreement turned into me trying to offend him, me disrespecting his God's, acting like they are a joke, how he's going to stop worrying about not offending me.  How he wishes now that he would of $crewed that woman while I was at my parents.  How he keeps turning down all these women because it would "offend" his wife and maybe he won't turn them down anymore.  How his God's will give him 20 more women, but he can't get anymore God's.

This infuriates me so much.  He says all this to hurt me, make a point, keep me in line, makes sure I don't do it again because he will cheat on me.  Again.  His bruised ego, his own self loathing, his own insecurities.

In the past week, he has accussed  me more than once of cheating, screamed at me for telling the truth because he wanted me to lie instead, had that huge meltdown yesterday, said he was going to blow his head off.  Counseling is helping, but I am really wondering if this will ever be okay.

[Frankee]

I think I am going to give myself a deadline.  I am think for January or May of next year.  That time I am going to do a serious reevaluation of my marriage.

Today I went to a church food bank.  I am worried that we will run out of food before he gets paid.  I had gone a couple times before.  He doesn't like the food banks, makes him feel poor, etc. That I went behind his back after he told me not to do it.  That if I went behind his back for this, I didn't use my head, didn't think that it would "offend" him so that means I would take a di** behind his back.

That disagreement turned into me trying to offend him, me disrespecting his God's, acting like they are a joke, how he's going to stop worrying about not offending me.  How he wishes now that he would of $crewed that woman while I was at my parents.  How he keeps turning down all these women because it would "offend" his wife and maybe he won't turn them down anymore.  How his God's will give him 20 more women, but he can't get anymore God's.

This infuriates me so much.  He says all this to hurt me, make a point, keep me in line, makes sure I don't do it again because he will cheat on me.  Again.  His bruised ego, his own self loathing, his own insecurities.

In the past week, he has accussed  me more than once of cheating, screamed at me for telling the truth because he wanted me to lie instead, had that huge meltdown yesterday, said he was going to blow his head off.  Counseling is helping, but I am really wondering if this will ever be okay.

[Cat Familiar]

You plan on reevaluating your marriage in several months.    That will give you time to see if he's making progress with therapy. Though you've seen improvement in his behavior, you're wondering if he will ever get to the point where he won't have these frequent emotional blowups.

The kids need to eat and you chose to go to a food bank, though he'd expressly prohibited you from doing that. With his black and white thinking, he assumes that this is a betrayal, rather than you being a responsible parent. And he presumes that you would betray him in other ways, which is incredibly insulting.

From drawing these faulty conclusions, he threatens to cheat on you. You see these threats as evidence of how damaged and insecure he is and how he hates himself. You wonder if you want to stay in this marriage if this behavior is what you will be dealing with.

[Frankee]

Though you've seen improvement in his behavior, you're wondering if he will ever get to the point where he won't have these frequent emotional blowups.

This is something that keeps plaguing my mind.  I do see improvement.  A big concern I keep having is maybe it is too late.  Maybe I really don't love him anymore and just haven't given my heart and head time to come to an agreement.

With his black and white thinking, he assumes that this is a betrayal, rather than you being a responsible parent. And he presumes that you would betray him in other ways, which is incredibly insulting.

He has a nuclear meltdown about saving money.  I knew he would have a meltdown about me not budgeting well enough with meals and groceries.  He had a meltdown about how every time he saves money, we find a way to spend it.  I did it to save money.  It was going to be a fight either way.

You see these threats as evidence of how damaged and insecure he is and how he hates himself. You wonder if you want to stay in this marriage if this behavior is what you will be dealing with.

I told a friend today of just a couple of the things he said and she said that's crazy.  She told her ex bf if he ever tried to pull stuff like this, she was gone. He ended up breaking up with her though.  I know in our entire relationship, not once did I ever say anything about leaving him for someone else, being with another man.  His insecurities are probably going to play a big part in my decision.  I couldn't even go to the grocery store (with our toddler) without him throwing out I must be banging someone.  That's how pathetic it is.

I just see he puts on the facade for everyone else.  His coworkers and these women who he thinks want to bang him left and right.  While I am left cleaning up his emotional word vomit he spits almost every day.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I'm really sorry to hear he's been saying these horrible things to you. *hugs*

It does sound like he is projecting his insecurities onto you. His behavior also reminds me of the quote "me think the lady doth protest too much." My ex accused me of sleeping around when it turns out he was the one who was trying to sleep around for years (long story how I found out).  It also sounds like he will probably find something to fight about regardless.  What are you doing to take care of yourself in the meantime? Is there anything in particular we can help you with?

[Frankee]

Not doing well today.  Part of me wants to leave the house in it's current utter disarray.  Then when he comes home and says something, then say to him... why don't you have one of girlfriends come clean up since they want to be with you.  That is the really vindictive part of me.

I know that would be instigating the next nuclear meltdown and I would end up being the one that is the bad guy in his eyes.  And to reference before... this will do no good.

The kids haven't let me relax at all today.  I am still upset and thinking I will probably still be when he comes home tonight.  There is probably a lot I could do to pull myself out of my current mood, but it's almost as if I don't really want to.

I feel justified in feeling like he insulted me again.  Him trying to equal me screwing somebody else with "offending" him by going to a church food bank for help.  And then adding how he will offend me by actually screwing someone.  He may never cheat and this may be his way of feeling better by idle threats, but it doesn't make it right what he is doing.

[formflier]

How do you know he is getting better.  (I get it... you likely have "an impression" or "a feeling"

But seriously... .describe "the evidence" to me.

Are you involved with his counselor?

Remind me again how long he has been working on this?

FF

[pearlsw]

Hi Frankee,

I am sad to say some of this sounds familiar to me! I had an earful recently about some man that looked at me, what, two or three years ago at a buffet while on holiday in another country. Yep.

The guy was there sitting right next to his wife, and my SO was sitting next to this man. My SO didn't say or do anything, if he was so offended, nope. All the bricks come down on my head. It's about how, in his twisted thoughts, that I look at men. All men apparently. He has a distorted, insanely jealous world view. He is utterly convinced I did something that day, right in front of him and the other guy's wife. Right.

I explained I was pretty focused on the food and him. I have stronger memories of the really nice bathroom at the restaurant than what this person looked like. I tune out a lot, but if this guy had looked me like I was an item in the buffet I probably would have noticed. He didn't.

At my best moments I don't JADE. It is a drag though. I have never been with such an insecure, jealous man.  It takes a lot of patience and balance, but I'd suggest you not engage when he is out of control. I know how hard this is. Believe me! My SO made it so I could not talk to him or not talk to him this past week and it led to a very bad scene. One that may, in the long run, end this relationship.

My SO has been threatening suicide a lot in the last months and this week too. It is a powerful threat I'm learning. I'm seeing it is one thing to experiment with approaches to other problems, but this one... .this one is new for me and not at all easy to come to terms with. I've tried a few things, but... .like I say, it is a powerful threat.

What do you do to manage when you are getting this barrage of insults and accusations?

take care, pearl.

[Cat Familiar]

Maybe the improvement you've seen is not enough. Maybe he's worn you out with the bad behavior and you have lost the love you once felt for him. Maybe this isn't the person you want to share your life with and raise your sons. Your friend says behavior like this would be a deal breaker for her.

You have to put up with infidelity accusations even when you go to the store with your toddler. You're becoming increasingly frustrated to be a target of these baseless accusations. It's at the point where you don't even want to take care of daily tasks and the kids have been wearing you out. It sounds like you need a break, need someone to help you out.   

[formflier]

You have to put up with infidelity accusations even when you go to the store with your toddler. 

Frankee,

I know you are venting some... .it's good to vent and get it out.  I also hope you are listening to feedback of people who are watching your story...

As you may recall... .the infidelity thing (and other family thing... and love child thing... etc etc) used to be big in my r/s.

At the heart of that... .was "invalidation".  Now... for me... I would thoughtfully "prove" the theories wrong.

Which "fed the monster" by invalidating...

Then... .there was a period where I was more like you... .kinda stewing about it... resenting it... and staying away from it.

Then during some joint counseling I really focused on actively caring for my wife "in the way she wants to be cared for" (love languages) and just by happenstance... .my wife sent me pornography in email... .asking my thoughts on how she looked.

(yeah... it happened)  I actually think my wife was feeling "inferior" and was fishing around dysfunctionally for some honest feedback.  Our Marriage Counselor was female.

We happened to have a session soon after... .and I monologued the entire session... demanding the "woman thing" end.  How could it be that you think I'm looking at all these women, yet you send them to me when I've said I don't want it.

MC was mortified.

My wife was mortified.

I wouldn't stop... .didn't stop... .until I said I wouldn't ever deal with accusations again because of this.  Both women seemed visibly relieved.

And... really... .they've never come back. 

Back to your story.

There has to be a combination of feeding the monster and invalidation here.  Hard as it will be... don't get drawn in.  You solving it on your end will provide a pathway for him to solve it on his.  Once it stops working for him.

Sucks that is on your shoulder.

FF

[Frankee]

I have been carefully reading all the replies.  I appreciate all the insight.  I find I am in a difficult spot.  I feel I am at a point where my tolerance is almost zilch with him.  I find I am struggling with figuring out if I still love him or if I am just trying to hang on to ghostly hope.  Then part of me sees he has improved.  Our fights are getting less aggressive.  They are getting less intense, but I am hearing more clearly the underlying insults and I find I am less accepting it is part of his "trying" to do better.

We ended up talking and I told him I was upset about the whole cheating thing.  Then when I told him what he said that upset me, his bs reply was, I don't remember making the comment about me taking a d***.  He even asked me how the whole food bank thing would turn into me cheating on him.  When I said what he said, still told me he doesn't remember.  How am I supposed to talk about something when he doesn't remember.  Then he has the gull to accuse me of saying that I was going to leave when I never said that, but what I said "sounded" like I was going to so that means I said it.   

I am trying to figure out how to communicate with him now without it turning into a fight where I want to throttle him or say really mean things and are more focused on not saying those things or feeling those things rather than resolve the issue.  Today he tried to get me to talk and all I could think of was how I didn't want to talk to him, I wish he would just leave, or how I wanted to just shove him and tell him to get the hell away from me.  He sees that I am acting this way and says I am turning into how he was.

[formflier]

So... I see two paths.

Stick with listening to this and have a recorder app on your phone.  Pass those along to his T and let them "remember" them in T and perhaps they can figure out why he can't remember.

I honestly believe he doesn't remember.  More likely when he is calm enough to talk about it, he remembers things differently.

When he is worked up, might be worth seeing what he remembers (and be ready to exit)

My wife doesn't remember lots of stuff either.  I now twist that on her to exit circular conversations.

You've got to tell me about  (fill in blank)

me:  Please reflect back what you remember from our recent conversations on that.

her:  I don't remember

me:  Oh... .well... .I'm ready to talk more once you let me know what you remember.

her:  Just tell me again because I don't remember.

me:  Help me understand the point of talking if you don't remember... ?  (bingo... got her)


The other pathway is for you to be blissfully ignorant of his rants.  Perhaps you have a rule that says  you exit after 10 seconds.

Sure... he'll be ticked.  But guess what... give it a couple days and he won't remember... .and neither will you!

FF

[Frankee]

We had some good news today.  He had his first individual therapy session today.  His counselor is specialized in his kind of trauma.  She told him he has PTSD, probably has had it for awhile.  She knows about one of the youth facilities that he was in where there was a huge scandal and eventually shut the center down.  She told him it would take a long time, but there is hope.  Also since he had been seen and he is a victim of abuse, his sessions are free.  They have a federal grant for people like him that suffered childhood abuse.

I could tell he had been crying when he called me.  I told him that was really good to hear about all of it.  Made sure to let him know that even though it will take a long time, we are headed in the right direction.

This is kind of that kind of hope I was talking about.  No excuse not to go to counseling, especially if it is for free because he qualifies.  He seems hopefully.  He is going again tomorrow morning because she doesn't want to wait a week before seeing him again.  I am really happy she is diving right in to help.  It has provided some relief and I actually feel like some weight has been lifted.

[Cat Familiar]

BPD and PTSD share a lot of similar behavioral characteristics. That's great news that he's going to be receiving free counseling.    He sounds like he's tried to cope by becoming a tough guy to hide the wounded child within.

This certainly gives you a measure of hope that things will be changing for the better. It sounds like he's found a really good situation with that counselor. She undoubtedly understands the type of trauma he endured.

[Frankee]

I had a very strange occurrence last night.  We went out to a karaoke bar with a friend from out of town and this girl he is dating.  We found babysitter's so my H and I could both go out.

We had a fun time and when it was around 1:30, our friends wanted to go to an after party.  I wanted to go, but we had to go back for the babysitter.  My H told me to go ahead and go and he would go home with the kids.  I was shocked.  I asked him if he was sure and he said yes, because I never get to go out.  I was surprised, but I said okay.  He left with one couple and I stayed with the friends from out of town.

We stayed at the bar not much longer and I thought about it and I really didn't want to go without him.  So we left and tried to get beer to go back to the house and hang out.  Unfortunately it was too late.  We went back to our house and just hung out for a bit. 

I am surprised and happy he put that trust in me to let me stay behind without him.  I found that it really isn't as fun without him.  I did meet the woman that he went out with a couple weeks ago.  I feel better because I am no longer worried.  She is really nice, said my H always talks about me, and she thinks I am beautiful and he is lucky to have me.

[Cat Familiar]

Hey that's wonderful, Frankee   He had awareness of your feelings without being prompted. 

Things like that certainly make him more of an attractive partner, don't they? And as a bonus you got to meet the woman whose motives you weren't sure of previously and found out that she's a nice person.

Could it be that you're already seeing some positive changes from him being in counseling?

[formflier]

     

How can you express to him how much this meant to you... .without going "over the top".

FF

[Frankee]

I am not sure that it is relevant anymore.  Honestly, he can eat those brownie points.

He is in a bad/miserable mood.  Went off on me yesterday morning.  Even tried that stupid hug thing.  He literally jumped on the bed and bounced over the other side to get away.  Then he literally pushed me off of him and said maybe he wants to be mad.  Sprinkled throughout the day, he was making snide comments.  We were with out friends so it was hard to talk to him.

Last night, he started in with the adoption of the oldest.  I tried talking to him, put my arms around him, eventually grabbed him and held him telling him he was important blah blah.  Turned into a huge fight because I didn't have the answers he wanted, wasn't responding how he wanted, he had it set that I didn't care, it wasn't important.  I didn't use the safe word.  I was too emotionally upset to think straight.

Ended with him blaming me for not caring enough, allowing him to leave after the fight, not stopping him, crying like a little bit**, sabotaging him (because I love to do that), and not caring enough to "fix" or "put and end" to the fight.

With as deregulated as he became, I did my best.  I know I should had done the safe word.  I told him I did not deserve to be treated or talked to that way.  He is just so excited to talk to the counselor about all of this.  Bet he wants validation he's in the right.

[Frankee]

He tells me he has unconditional love.  That he knows husband's and wives are supposed to have conditions.  A parent is supposed to love a child unconditionally.  He didn't get that.  Now he is trying to give me that.  My love however has conditions.  Which means I am not giving back unconditional love.  So he understands, but says his is better.

Unconditional love... such a pile of cr@p.  He treats me worse than anybody else. 

He gets mad at me for our friends coming over to early, saying it's my fault I am rushing him.  He gets mad at me for our oldest acting the way he does.  He indirectly accuses me of "doing something" to our toddler because he is being clingy to him, when before he got mad he was to clingy to me.  He gets mad saying I am trying to sabotage his progress when I am the one that basically forced him to go to counseling.

His version of "unconditional love" is screwed up. I hope he gets better, but even the counselor said it will take a long time.  I want to tough it out on his road to recovery.  I want to show him support.  I want to be there for him. I am just no longer sure that I love him enough to do all of that.

Even when I really tried.  Hugging and what not.  When that didn't work, his response.  I don't care... try harder.  How hard am I supposed to to try.  He's barely touched me in over a week.  All physical contact has been initiated by me. 

[Cat Familiar]

It's easy to feel disappointed after they've done something particularly nice. We hope that that awareness will continue, and when it's back to square one with bad behavior, it feels even more discouraging, because we've had a taste of how wonderful they can be and wish that they could do that on a regular basis.

And you can see his "hug therapy" isn't useful when he's dysregulating.

I'm sorry that he blamed you for not responding the way he's hoped about adopting your oldest son.    Certainly behaving the way he did is not going to persuade you that he's a reliable father figure.

[Frankee]

It is frustrating.  I come on here vent.  I appreciate all the feedback.  It may seem in my posts that it's just a big pile of bs, when it actually is getting better.  I discredited him for coming home with the kids when it a actually is a really big step forward.

We had counseling today.  His and our marriage.  I felt safe expressing my feelings on how his behavior was.  I may have gotten a little snappy and made some sarcastic remarks.  We ended up sorting a lot out.  The counselor had to interject a couple times because she could see I was getting really upset.

We seem to be okay after that.  Still a work in progress.

[Cat Familiar]

Progress is good.    These patterns don't change overnight.

Of course you come here to vent and that's much better than doing that in your relationship. One of the biggest challenges I've dealt with has been my own resentment. Like so many people here, I totally fell in love with the prince. But then I discovered I was living with the goblin more often than not. I was really angry because, I'd been in this situation before, and I'd never signed up to be married to a goblin, and the prince was nowhere to be found.

It's good that you can safely express yourself in counseling. We all need an outlet where we can totally be ourselves and not hold back. As you know, it's difficult when our partner can be overly sensitive about criticism.

Counseling can teach him that he's stronger than he thinks, so he doesn't need to react in the ways he has previously. 

[formflier]

I'm wondering... .suggesting... that you make a deliberate effort to move away from a "binary" choice.  Conditional or unconditional love.

I think you should lead off the next MC with that thought... suggestion. 

Wouldn't it be better to thoughtfully approach each situation and apply the love that you perceive is needed?

The issue is that "love" and "actions" get intertwined. 

Parent's do unconditionally love their kids, yet they thoughtfully take action to give their child what that child needs.

FF

[Frankee]

I feel I am guilty of oozing resentment currently.  I definitely didn't sign up for everything I have gone through.  Definitely not my idea of the kind of relationship I would end up in. 

I had a dose of his improvement this morning where I was the one left holding the $hit stick.  He asked about the adoption thing.  I had gone up to the courts and didn't really get the answers I wanted because of some stupidity conference and they were gone.

He was starting to get upset.  I went into this whole explanation or what I was told, because to me... telling him this would help.  Which looking back was really a lack of awareness on my part.  He got upset and said, why can't you just say, I understand why you are upset, they are a bunch of a$$holes, everything will be okay.  It wasn't even being asked to read his mind, he was simply asking to see he was clearly upset and I just needed to be on his side.

I'm not even mad at him.  I actually feel bad that he was blatantly showing me he was trying to regulate and I was being insensitive and wasn't showing him back that I too could reassure him.

[Cat Familiar]

Resentment happens. It's not easy being in a relationship with a pwBPD. Ways we could communicate with nons will not work with pwBPD. We have to learn new ways of being ourselves in the relationship and it's a lot of work.

But, as you've noticed, once you start incorporating those new behaviors in your skill set, relationships begin to improve.

You just got an eye opening experience of how telling him about what you were told was invalidating to him because you weren't addressing his feelings about the issue.

I would bet that never would have occurred to you a few months ago, but now you understand exactly why that happened.

I don't think you were being "insensitive" because your response wouldn't have triggered a non. It's just that you are realizing that you have to translate what you say into "BPDese" and at that moment you forgot and spoke to him in the way you'd speak to anyone else.

You looking at yourself and your response shows genuine compassion for him.   It's easier to see when people have a physical disability rather than an emotional disability. It takes a while for us to learn how to make accommodations for them.   

[Frankee]

You are right cat.  I get so frustrated and angry when he gets mean and asks/comments like what is wrong with you?  You don't use your head.  What's wrong with your brain?  You aren't making any sense.  I know I am very smart and for a long time I thought he was right.  Turns out I just didn't know "BPDese".

Even today.  He asked about our trailer for our boat.  I told him what was going on.  I don't see it as hopeless.  I see it as, well that didn't work... try something else.  It don't see it as impossible, I see it as just have to make some more phone calls.  To him, he's going to suck on car exhaust, I didn't have the answers he wanted, it was impossible, telling me my "rich" parents are going to cough up money, he married into a family with money but there is no family and they are $hitty parents.  Oh and I lie about small stupid stuff, but I won't lie to make him feel better about the important stuff.

There is so much going on right now.  I have this weight I am carrying because I know he is incapable of hearing this bad news right now.  He is talking about ending it because I am having trouble figuring out how to register a trailer. He puts on a strong/tough persona, but I have seen that I literally have to start to think really hard about when/how/if to deliver bad news.  Catch 22.  He finds out I "omitted" certain details, he gets mad.

I try, but when I don't "deliver" what he wants to hear, I am just unreliable, he has no confidence, etc.  He's exhausting.  From day to day, I don't know who I will be dealing with.

[Cat Familiar]

Of course you get upset when he says unkind things to you, but you know how smart you are and those comments reflect his inner weakness that he projects upon you. Still, it's no fun to hear that crap.

The boat thing is just another example of black and white thinking. Rather than let's work together and figure out a strategy, it's "it's all wrong" and "it's your fault that you can't make it all OK."

Yep, you are stuck in a Catch 22. You omit bad news to save him from dysregulating, and then he thinks you're lying. But you try to tell him the real story and he criticizes you for being "unreliable" because it's not what he wants to hear.

It seems like he's placing a lot of burdens upon you because you're the stay-at-home mom. Are there ways you can transfer any of these responsibilities onto him, maybe little ones, so he gets an idea that things don't just work out magically the way you want them to?

I've had to do this with certain tasks with my husband. He just doesn't understand why things take so long, like when I have to fix something in the yard. He's constantly asking, "How long is that gonna take." My answer was, "I don't know--it will take as long as it takes for me to fix it."

So recently when a lawn sprinkler broke, I told him about it instead of fixing it myself. And he asked how to repair it and I told him what parts and tools were needed. So he did. And things went awry. He had to go to the hardware store twice to get different parts. And now I think he has a bit of a clue as to why I can't always tell him how long it takes to fix things.