Should I be an ATM to my spouse or not [Christian Discussion]

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

From time to time I have some exchanges via PM and when I think lots of people could benefit, I ask if those discussions can be moved to the front boards.

The basic question is should a Christian husband "restrict" or "cut off" doing things (in my case access to money) based on prior BPDish behavior.  

Basically, my wife asks for money... .If all is well, I put money in an account. and she uses debit card.  If she is anything other than polite and thankful... .no money.  (long series of posts about this)

My wife has a full time job and access to her own funds.  I bring in 3-4 times the $$ that my wife does, although much of it comes in "chunks" due to real estate deals.

Fian said it was ok to move to front boards.  

Hey FF

I would like to continue our discussion about whether a man should be an ATM when their wife isn't fulfilling her side of the equation.  Since the other thread is divorcing, I don't think it would be appropriate to post there.  My side is that you keep fulfilling your responsibilities even when the wife isn't fulfilling hers in order to maintain the moral high ground.  Yours is that you can't expect her to change if she gets everything while doing nothing.

My reasons for remaining the ATM is several fold.  One, that is how God treats us.  When we are faithless, he remains faithful.  Two, when you approach a marriage as you give, I give, I think it changes the dynamic of the marriage.  In my approach, the marriage has some stability - the side that you are providing.  It is less likely to end in divorce, or for the marriage to take a dangerous turn for the worse.

Third, there is another way to address the failure on the other side - prayer and maybe also fasting.  I can't count the number of times my situation with my wife seemed impossible to resolve.  Even this past week, we were in a pretty bad place.  I fasted for 3 days and prayed, and when she returned her mindset was totally different.  I have seen in my life that prayer does work, and for that reason I prefer my approach rather than returning like for like.

(I had quote about God being faithful in my reply)

Sometimes.

Actually... God is always faithful.  Sometimes we agree... sometimes we don't.

There are many times when God's people "flipped him the bird" and he let the experience the consequences of that.  Even massive characters in the Bible.

God told moses exactly how to "get to his ATM"... .instead Moses did something else (struck the rock and showed anger... if I remember right).  God removed his blessings and in fact removed his promise of getting Moses and those following him to the promised land.  (Yes... I realize there are several stories here)

God saw a "pattern" of disobedience... and "respected" the right of his people to not accept his blessings.

That's how I see it... . Certainly there are places where God showed grace.  However, I believe that "more often than not" when there is a longstanding pattern of disobedience, God "respects" that choice and stops being an ATM.  

God is certainly faithful in trying to "get his people back".

FF

I agree that there are limits on grace.  For example, if your spouse commits adultery, you are no longer required to be married to them, and as a consequence be the ATM.  Yet, that is the exception.  As Psalms 103:8 says, "The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love."  God's default stance towards us is love, and as the verse I quoted to you before, He is faithful even if we are faithless.  Another example would be Hosea.  He married a prostitute that was constantly unfaithful to him (in the area of adultery!).  Yet, he remained faithful to her.  His book draws a connection between him being faithful to his undeserving wife, and God being faithful to his undeserving people.

In your answer, you only answered one of my points.  Even with that one, you took the exception (the few times where God did remove his faithfulness) and made that the rule.  I do, however, agree that God let's us suffer the results of our actions.  Where I disagree is where we punish our spouse as a result of their actions.  In my mind, that let's them detect the terms of our marriage.  Letting the disordered set the lead in a relationship is a recipe for disaster imo.

(Where I disagree is where we punish our spouse as a result of their actions.)

I never once considered not giving something that I had been giving a form of punishment.

From my point of view... .I have to respect my wife's decisions, even if I don't find them respectable.  If she chooses something with a set of natural, rational results... .I'm her husband... NOT her savior.  I think many Christian husbands, perhaps me at some time, confuse that role.

I'll try to come back and consider your questions more carefully... no intent to not answer anything.  At this point I'm not willing to say that the times God allowed his people to suffer is "few".

Good grief... .he allowed one of his proud kings to be killed by a woman dropping a stone on him.  I get it... it was a mortal wound and his sword bearer "did the deed", yet God allowed him to know that a woman did him in... .(in that day... quite an insult... .I struggle to find anything but punishment in that example.

Mind if I start a post about this... ?  

Not trying to argue with you... you have a completely Biblically derived point of view...  If you wanted to embark on that as a prayerfully considered  course of action, I don't know that I could find a Biblical reason to say you  are "wrong"... going and doing something God has said is "always" wrong.

FF

Yes, I am fine with you starting a post on this.  You can mention my name or keep it anonymous.  You can quote from these mails.  Btw, I do agree that God punishes.  He is God, it is part of his job description.

And if we are supposed to love like Jesus loved the church... .isn't that part of a husbands job description?

I certainly can't imagine that God punishes out of hate... .

I'll put something out there soon.  Thanks so much for the discussion on this, I like it even more that we have different points of view.

FF

[formflier]

From time to time I have some exchanges via PM and when I think lots of people could benefit, I ask if those discussions can be moved to the front boards.

The basic question is should a Christian husband "restrict" or "cut off" doing things (in my case access to money) based on prior BPDish behavior.  

Basically, my wife asks for money... .If all is well, I put money in an account. and she uses debit card.  If she is anything other than polite and thankful... .no money.  (long series of posts about this)

My wife has a full time job and access to her own funds.  I bring in 3-4 times the $$ that my wife does, although much of it comes in "chunks" due to real estate deals.

Fian said it was ok to move to front boards.  

Hey FF

I would like to continue our discussion about whether a man should be an ATM when their wife isn't fulfilling her side of the equation.  Since the other thread is divorcing, I don't think it would be appropriate to post there.  My side is that you keep fulfilling your responsibilities even when the wife isn't fulfilling hers in order to maintain the moral high ground.  Yours is that you can't expect her to change if she gets everything while doing nothing.

My reasons for remaining the ATM is several fold.  One, that is how God treats us.  When we are faithless, he remains faithful.  Two, when you approach a marriage as you give, I give, I think it changes the dynamic of the marriage.  In my approach, the marriage has some stability - the side that you are providing.  It is less likely to end in divorce, or for the marriage to take a dangerous turn for the worse.

Third, there is another way to address the failure on the other side - prayer and maybe also fasting.  I can't count the number of times my situation with my wife seemed impossible to resolve.  Even this past week, we were in a pretty bad place.  I fasted for 3 days and prayed, and when she returned her mindset was totally different.  I have seen in my life that prayer does work, and for that reason I prefer my approach rather than returning like for like.

(I had quote about God being faithful in my reply)

Sometimes.

Actually... God is always faithful.  Sometimes we agree... sometimes we don't.

There are many times when God's people "flipped him the bird" and he let the experience the consequences of that.  Even massive characters in the Bible.

God told moses exactly how to "get to his ATM"... .instead Moses did something else (struck the rock and showed anger... if I remember right).  God removed his blessings and in fact removed his promise of getting Moses and those following him to the promised land.  (Yes... I realize there are several stories here)

God saw a "pattern" of disobedience... and "respected" the right of his people to not accept his blessings.

That's how I see it... . Certainly there are places where God showed grace.  However, I believe that "more often than not" when there is a longstanding pattern of disobedience, God "respects" that choice and stops being an ATM.  

God is certainly faithful in trying to "get his people back".

FF

I agree that there are limits on grace.  For example, if your spouse commits adultery, you are no longer required to be married to them, and as a consequence be the ATM.  Yet, that is the exception.  As Psalms 103:8 says, "The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love."  God's default stance towards us is love, and as the verse I quoted to you before, He is faithful even if we are faithless.  Another example would be Hosea.  He married a prostitute that was constantly unfaithful to him (in the area of adultery!).  Yet, he remained faithful to her.  His book draws a connection between him being faithful to his undeserving wife, and God being faithful to his undeserving people.

In your answer, you only answered one of my points.  Even with that one, you took the exception (the few times where God did remove his faithfulness) and made that the rule.  I do, however, agree that God let's us suffer the results of our actions.  Where I disagree is where we punish our spouse as a result of their actions.  In my mind, that let's them detect the terms of our marriage.  Letting the disordered set the lead in a relationship is a recipe for disaster imo.

(Where I disagree is where we punish our spouse as a result of their actions.)

I never once considered not giving something that I had been giving a form of punishment.

From my point of view... .I have to respect my wife's decisions, even if I don't find them respectable.  If she chooses something with a set of natural, rational results... .I'm her husband... NOT her savior.  I think many Christian husbands, perhaps me at some time, confuse that role.

I'll try to come back and consider your questions more carefully... no intent to not answer anything.  At this point I'm not willing to say that the times God allowed his people to suffer is "few".

Good grief... .he allowed one of his proud kings to be killed by a woman dropping a stone on him.  I get it... it was a mortal wound and his sword bearer "did the deed", yet God allowed him to know that a woman did him in... .(in that day... quite an insult... .I struggle to find anything but punishment in that example.

Mind if I start a post about this... ?  

Not trying to argue with you... you have a completely Biblically derived point of view...  If you wanted to embark on that as a prayerfully considered  course of action, I don't know that I could find a Biblical reason to say you  are "wrong"... going and doing something God has said is "always" wrong.

FF

Yes, I am fine with you starting a post on this.  You can mention my name or keep it anonymous.  You can quote from these mails.  Btw, I do agree that God punishes.  He is God, it is part of his job description.

And if we are supposed to love like Jesus loved the church... .isn't that part of a husbands job description?

I certainly can't imagine that God punishes out of hate... .

I'll put something out there soon.  Thanks so much for the discussion on this, I like it even more that we have different points of view.

FF

[formflier]

I think I see what I didn't answer.

If there are other points I haven't addressed... please let me know.

One, that is how God treats us.

OK... this is the one I mainly dealt with.  I simply don't agree this is how God's treats us.  I think "God is just" and allows circumstances in our lives to mature us.  Sometimes that is a blessing... .sometimes that is perceived as punishment.  Lots of variety in between.

Not making any claim about "the majority" of the way God treats us, but I think it is closer to even (blessing vs punish) than we would want to imagine a "good God" would do. 

Again... I've not counted or tried to do a statistical thing.

Listen... .when a guy stumbles... touches the Ark and is struck dead... .I see pretty strong boundaries at work.  Not much grace there.  I actually think similar things are much more numerous than we realize.

Two, when you approach a marriage as you give, I give, I think it changes the dynamic of the marriage.  In my approach, the marriage has some stability - the side that you are providing.

It does.  I can't argue with this statement.  I would argue that I was overly giving and what I needed to do was "change the dynamic". 

Perhaps that is the key.  if the dynamic isn't working... change it.

Third, there is another way to address the failure on the other side - prayer and maybe also fasting.

I've done a little fasting.  My prayer life is all over the place.  I've seen it "work" and seen myself get other answers.

"not yet" is often the most frustrating answer.

FF

[Fian]

Hey FF, thanks for posting this and responding to the other comments in the original PM I sent you.

So let me summarize things as I see them.

Option 1:
Change the dynamics of the relationship by withholding ATM responsibilities (and probably other things as well) in an attempt to get different behavior from your spouse.

Option 2:
Continue to perform your spousal responsibilities and pray to God to change the dynamics of the relationship.

I do agree with you that the dynamics need to change.  The only question is which approach to take on trying to make the change.  Comparing the two approaches, I can see in your life how your psychological approach has had successes, however your marriage is also not where you want it either.  You continue to have regular struggles and major situations.  You are dealing with the issue of distance in your relationship as you have moved farther apart to protect yourselves from hurt.  For you, divorce is an option on the table.  I think your approach has put some guard rails on your relationship to limit the crazy, but I suspect that it has also built up resentment towards you from your wife.

Before talking about my approach, let me tell you a little bit about my marriage.  I am married to a Christian wife, who seems to have some BPD traits, but would never be diagnosed with BPD.  So I am not dealing with the same level of dysfunction as you are.  She brings to the marriage a lot of pride, and often things become a contest of wills in the marriage.  I bring to the marriage Asperger's, and my unemotional nature and love of solitary activities (video games) is a constant source of frustration for my wife.

My marriage isn't a success either.  My wife resents my failings and she has also chosen to be emotionally distant towards me.  When we have a big fight, she often talks about leaving.  I am the one holding things together in the marriage, as I refuse to agree to a route of separation.  I know if I agreed with her, we probably would separate.  I am not consistent in praying for my marriage either, but when we have the big blow up and things seem really bleak, I do focus on praying, and in extreme cases even fasting.  I have always seen God answer my prayers, and take situations that seemed impossible and brought us back together.  The thing about praying to God is that he may not fix things the way you expect.  Often, He chooses to fix you instead.  But when He fixes a situation, there isn't resentment about a winner and a loser.  I believe with Him guiding things, He repairs things in ways better than I ever could.

[Woodchuck]

Fian-
I am in a very similar situation.  Until about 6 months ago, I had an account for my W and made sure that there was always at least a few hundred in her account.  She was working part time and she has access to all the money that she has put away over the last several years.  I finally stopped funding the account because I was tired of feeling used.  She tells me on a very regular basis that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her but she has no problem spending the money I made available to her.  Due to the fact that she had access to 'her' money and I was paying all the bills, I decided to stop funding her account.  I believe that it was the right thing for me to do.  She mentioned the other day that I haven't given her a cent for months.  That is true but it is also true that I pay for 99.9% of all expenses including stuff that she needs for her job.  If she did not have a job or access to money, I would probably do things a bit differently.  She does not contribute financially, so why should I go out of my way to finance her above her basic needs if she is of the mindset that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her?  I did not stop funding her out of spite but out of self care I believe.  If she wants to work together great but she doesn't.  She has stated she doesn't care what I think, or anyone else thinks for that matter, she is going to do what is 'right'.  She has also told me to go ahead and cancel her cellphone because she didn't ask for it and doesn't need it.  Part of me wants to follow through with that but part of me doesn't.  I am very conflicted about not providing for her and trying to do pretty much everything I can for her is just who I am. 
I hope you find an answer that you are at peace with.  I think it more has to do with where your heart is at and what is best for you to be able to care for yourself.  I am completely at peace with my decision but at the same time wish things were different.

WC

[empath]

I hope y'all don't mind me jumping in.

My background is a bit different; my uBPDh is the primary breadwinner for our family. I would work part time while he was out of the house (for a lot of reasons), and h has a difficult time managing money. So for most of our marriage, I would manage it and enable his overspending habits by reducing my spending on necessities for myself and the kids. I would get angry about the situation, and I tried to negotiate budgets and responsible financial habits. Nothing worked. He would think that because I was working, he could spend whatever he wanted. If there was money in our joint account, he could spend it. We were even required to attend FPU (Dave Ramsey's program) by our church because of our debt.

Finally, I decided that I needed to do something about the situation because I and the kids had some needs that weren't going to be met if it continued in the same way. My paycheck would be deposited into my own account where h would not have access to it; I paid for some bills and other household expenses from my earnings.

This allowed me to be more at peace with waiting on God's timing to work itself out.

That being said, h has complained about my 'not working' and 'not contributing to the family finances' to Christian friends and family. He said their recommendation was to "cut me off" because I'm not doing what he wants me to do. (there are a couple of boundaries due to the effect of his actions on me - not to 'make him behave')

I do think that there is biblical warrant for various boundaries; even in the covenants, there are curses associated with not following God's laws and the ways of Christ. I also think that boundaries are different than punishments; boundaries are primarily about managing my reactions. Punishments are about managing others' actions. There are basic needs that should be provided for, regardless of a person's actions. (rain falls on the just and unjust)

I'm also a firm believer in the power of prayer and the idea that we sometimes have to act in response to God's leading.

[Enabler]

I'm not going to comment on the religious aspects of this conversation but I will have a go at what I believe to be some of the dynamics behind the issues pwBPD have certainly in a situation where they are not the primary bread winner. It's multi faceted in my belief:

Poor delineation between Need and Want

The majority of Nons would probably agree they have a few needs and a lot of wants when they look at their watch list of potential baskets. I believe pwBPD would say they have a lot of Needs and very few Wants. Each purchase is an emotional transaction as well as a economic transaction... .Fillet steak makes me feel special, luxurious and lavish, whereas buying chuck steak makes me think of dull winter stews and poverty. Since pwBPD have a heightened sense of emotions, each transaction holds a greater sense of anticipation and specialness and makes them feel good. Couple this with a likely general sense of unquenchable need to feel better i.e. go from -1 to 0, a pwBPW will often come up with elaborate ways to mentally justify the more lavish purchase as a need rather than a want. Like the burning person running to the lake, if you were to stop or hinder her need to douse the flames, hindering her buying an item that allows her to get to 0 is tantamount to abuse... ."how and why could you do this to me, I need this freshly squeezed organic orange juice?"


Poor executive function

Low ability to plan, living moment by moment often with relative tunnel vision engaging survival instincts means that a pwBPD cannot foresee economic disasters. Maybe they get to the point where they can manage day to day expenditure, even keep to a weekly food budget with a list, but they're unlikely to factor in the boiler breaking, keep a contingency or think about retirement. It's unlikely to be the small day to day things that tip them into financial oblivion, more an accumulation of blindsided errors that people with a higher executive function may see coming but they did not. This explains the common proclamation of victimhood when a 'black swan event' (which wasn't actually a black swan event at all) of the car insurance being due send pwBPD into financial crisis requiring a handout.

Poor delayed gratification development

Give a child a bag of sweets and they will most likely eat them immediately and save none... .maybe chunder on the floor from eating too many. Give an adult the same bag of sweets and they might eat a few and save the rest for later. pwBPD don't care so much about later, they care about how they feel NOW. Why save feeling good for later... .why save?

Enmeshment & Poor definition of 'Love'

You are an extension of me. If I NEED iPhone X, I cannot make sense of why you would not give it to me. In much the same way that if I caught my left hand in a door I wouldn't be able to understand it if I didn't use my right hand to release the door and thus release my left hand. It would be complete nonsense. SO... .if there is X money available (and likely includes available credit if they are credit aware), why would this not be available for pwBPD to spend on their NEEDS... .why would you not want to put out their emotional fire? "If you love me you would ______" , and by heck they mean that.


So from an emotional perspective you can understand how financial management is a minefield for a pwBPD and can also brew serious resentment when financial resources are not considered "fair". As far as solutions to this emotional pressure is concerned I believe collaboration and showing is the way forward. It requires a few bank accounts and various different control levels and rules. Principally you have control of yours, she has control of hers and you both have control AND ACCOUNTABILITY over the joint money.

Accounts -
- Non checking account
- Non savings account
- Joint checking account (day to day household expenditure)
- Joint savings account (Restricted access, in bank 2x signatures, no cards or web access for transfers)
- Joint 'fun' savings account (days out, maybe holidays, family meals, new kitchen etc, MUST BE SPENT IN THE YEAR)
- BPD checking account
- BPD savings account

Rules -
- No visibility or accountability over individual accounts
- Full accountability over joint accounts
- Joint collaboration over drawing from 'fun' and savings account
- Each person has a pre-determined equal amount of disposable income each month in their individual accounts (this may need to be done monthly if incomes are variable). Irrespective of income each partner has the same "fair" disposable income... .and thus same ability to delay gratification and save.
- Credit kept to ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for both parties to maintain fairness

Why & and how the design works -
- placed control, responsibility and accountability where it belongs
- Enmeshed relationships do not work with pwBPD as they are sacrificial by the very nature of their heightened sense of NEED.
- The non is able to 'show' the pwBPD the benefits of delayed gratification and likewise the pwBPD is able to bare the consequences of not learning the skill.
- No conversations are required, conflict minimisation, there is nothing to discuss after budget has been set for fair disposable income
- removes resentfulness about 'fairness'

Pitfalls
- collaboration on what is a reasonable monthly disposable income, this has to be done via a budget and analysis of current financial circumstances
- significant financial shocks of circumstance changes
- pwBPD getting their "fix" from abusing the joint checking account or more expensive food, kids clothing etc etc... .partly offset by full accountability and potential 'shame'.


Taking the initial argument to an extreme, God does not condone suicide, if your pwBPD consumed all of your earnings and resources leaving you starving, would God require you to essentially commit suicide by providing her with more resources... .no. Thus, rationally there has to be a line in the sand where God determines you should give/not give. He's left that up to us to determine where that line is. It's not based on her perception of fair as that is based on her perception of 'need' which we know to be spurious... .thus 'fair' needs to be determined by another metric other than emotional need.

[Notwendy]

The basic question is should a Christian husband "restrict" or "cut off" doing things (in my case access to money) based on prior BPDish behavior. 

Basically, my wife asks for money... .If all is well, I put money in an account. and she uses debit card.  If she is anything other than polite and thankful... .no money.  (long series of posts about this)


I have some concerns about this from a behavioral standpoint. She has BPD and there is going to be some BPD behaviors that are not under her control all the time. However, all living things have behaviors that can be reinforced- positively or negatively. If you are reinforcing some behaviors from your wife with money, then this is behavior modification.

Wife will learn that, if she wants something like a new dress- well be nice to hubby and she gets the money. If she is not nice, no money. But is this really the kind of relationship you want? Basically, you can get someone to behave with this manner, but it's an uneven relationship- you are the boss, or owner, or parent, and you control the reward. I don't know if this is husband/wife.

The actual reason for your taking control of the money is that she broke your trust agreements with it. Yet, I still think one has to ask- was this - or is this potentially - destructive to your survival as a family? What is the cost/benefit of you taking control of the funds. If the benefit is that you don't go under financially as a family, then the cost is worth it- but there is an emotional cost in terms of the dynamics of your relationship when you do this.

Is there a way to reinforce the behavior you really want- which is her reliability? I don't know what she is capable of. She's broken a number of agreements. It might be that you allow her some room to make mistakes- some money - but not so much that if she breaks the agreement that it will put the family in peril. This allows for learning and error. You make a joint account with some of your money. You make an agreement that the money is there for something she's invested in too- a vacation, or holiday fund. Either of you can take some of it for what you need- up to a limit. If she takes too much, then no vacation and you don't repeat this again. If she leaves it, the reward is the vacation.

Perhaps she is incapable of doing this, due to her BPD. In this case you control the money due to her being so unreliable the family would be in financial peril if she had access to the money. But this is different from putting money in the account according to how she is behaving towards you. This reason isn't about manipulating her behavior.

God did give the world unlimited blessings, but also the laws of nature. If you don't do your homework, you get an F. If you empty the bank account, then the money is gone. You can decide how much money you think you can trust your wife with without endangering the family, and then work from there, but I'd think carefully about using money to modify your wife's behavior.

[Fian]

To add to the discussion, this is what FF posted in another thread:

There are some posters on here that seem to believe (please clarify) that Dragon's wife is "owed" something.

And that something is so precious that under only the most limited circumstances it can't be changed... .or shouldn't be changed... .regardless of what Dragon's wife does or does not do.

Now... .everyone please pause.  If I have misstated a position... please clarify.


Here is a brief sketch of my position.

1.  ragon's wife has income independent of her husband.  She has made a choice to not take that income.  I believe she has made that choice because it would involve work on her part and she gets money from her ATM (marriage) without much effort whatsoever.

2.  In fact... .her ATM works even if she insults it... .demands money... .doesn't have an ATM card... .forgets her pin number.  It's the best ATM in the world... .no consequences... she wants money... the ATM produces.

3.  Even more entertainment.  She can go to people and claim the ATM actually takes money from her... .took her ATM card... .made her live in a loud house... .all of her circumstances are because of her ATM that is defective and cheating her... and also cheating her family.  Yet... the ATM keeps giving her money

What I am suggesting is that Dragon clarify how his wife uses the ATM card and pin number.  I'm also suggesting that he respect her choice not to use the card.

So... .Dragon's wife demands money.  ATM doesn't work.

Dragon's wife hands over a thoughtful written budget (likely for day or two, which is in context of the month) and the ATM works.

For clarity.  I am suggesting that if Dragon's wife chooses to NOT use the ATM per the "users manual"... .Dragon doesn't save her from her choice


Further clarity.  If that means there is no food in the house, Dragon should buy some himself and bring it home.  ragon should provide for his family.

Dragon should NOT further enable entitled financial behavior from his wife.  This boundary is 100% under Dragons control  The money passes through him to get to his wife.

Things like his son are not 100% under Dragons control.  Once respect is built on small boundaries, she may respect him on "joint" things.

I think this should be discussed in couples T with both present.  If Dragons wife choose not to go, then he should proceed.  Again... don't save her from her choices.

She will freak out... .  But she freaks out already. 

[Fian]

Several posted about irresponsible financial behavior on behalf of their spouse and the need to control finances to prevent bankruptcy.  I agree that it makes sense to do so.  You are not cutting them off, you are just trying to ensure that the family lives within its means.

[formflier]

There are several "points" going on in my thread.  Please keep them all going.

1. There is my choice in my marriage and the results of the "in process work".  My wife's continued behavior would have most likely let to BK/insolvency.  There was a time we let a bunch of bills go, because she distributed the money to her family and spent as she pleased.

My only legal recourse to undo this was divorce.  (yes... I checked out this option).

2.  There is my advice to Dragon.  His wife "would have felt" cutoff... that I'm sure, however when she "uses her pin code"... .money would have come out.  I'm positive she would have felt controlled.  I'm positive my advice would be to let her deal with her feelings... .

3.  There is a general discussion of should a Christian husband ever restrict his blessing, based on the behavior of the person he was blessing (wife in this case).  And the blessing being financial.

Does that seem to be a good summary of "what is in play"?

FF

[Fian]

One more item that I would add to the discussion.  Have others used prayer to deal with problems in the marriage and seen God act?

[formflier]

One more item that I would add to the discussion.  Have others used prayer to deal with problems in the marriage and seen God act?

Good one to add.  Love it.

I'll try to think of some examples.  On the spectrum of doing things for God or waiting on "God to do them"... .I'm pretty far over on the "do it for God" side.

God provided a brain, back, legs (you get the picture) and expects you to steward them well so that you can serve his purposes.  So...

Many of my prayers are for clarity and wisdom, vice "God please fix this for me... "

FF

[Enabler]

Mum had a poster in the kitchen when I was growing up... .in fact she had 2.

God helps though who help themself

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

[formflier]

Mum had a poster in the kitchen when I was growing up... .in fact she had 2.

God helps though who help themself

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

I love this... .yes.  I will use this... .

This is an example of why I love bpdfamily.

FF

[Fian]

Good one to add.  Love it.

I'll try to think of some examples.  On the spectrum of doing things for God or waiting on "God to do them"... .I'm pretty far over on the "do it for God" side.

God provided a brain, back, legs (you get the picture) and expects you to steward them well so that you can serve his purposes.  So...

Many of my prayers are for clarity and wisdom, vice "God please fix this for me... "

FF

The quote, "God helps those who help themselves" is not in the Bible even though it is said so often.  While everyone would agree that one should not be asking things from God that are readily in hand like asking God to bring you food, when there is a fridge full of food in your home, there are plenty of things in our life that are not in our control, yet we need anyway.  For example, I doubt anyone posting on the Conflicted board is happy with the state of their marriage.  We have all done effort trying to make our marriages the best that they can be, and we should continue to do so.  Yet, even with us doing our best efforts, our marriages are still broken.  That is where prayer comes in.  The almighty, all-knowing God of the universe responds to prayer.  He can make changes in our spouses that are beyond us.  Proverbs 21:1 says, "The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes."  If God can so change the heart of a distant ruler, can he not also do the same thing with your spouse?

Prayer does not mean that you are being inactive.  A part of prayer is listening for God's guidance, and then acting on it.  But there are also times where God is telling us to wait, or not to respond in kind to bad behavior.  That "inaction" can be the hardest thing to do, instead of naturally reacting back to negative behavior.  However, if we just follow boundaries, and setup rules where if you do this, I will do that, then you have in many ways lost control of your marriage.  You put the health of your marriage in your spouse's hands, and we already know they are not stable.  Prayer is you giving your marriage into God's hands, and letting God work on both of you to make it better.

[Enabler]

God also gave us the gift of free-will... .including pwBPD. Here’s some examples of potential God incidences my W totally misinterpreted:

- multiple messages telling her to SANCTIFY HERSELF so she took that mean to continue with her affair/inappropriate relationship and rid me from her life, because she considered me as THE BAD in her life that needed sanctification... .not the late nights, family neglect or alcohol abuse was considered in scope.

- listening to Christian music in car, needing strength for “her sanctification” a truck pulls in front of her with a logo of Enablers surname with a large oak tree (a removals van it would appear). Rather than take this as Enabler being a strong oak, source of strength she took this to mean she was strong and should get a divorce... .then why not have Mrs Enablers maiden name and the oak tree signalling god condoned the divorce?

Weird, but I believe these were messages she misinterpreted because she didn’t want to see gods messages. She used her free will to steer away from God’s will... .who am I to say what is and isn’t gods will?

Pray, yes... .God will send... .but she may not listen.

[Fian]

I think you underestimate's God ability to communicate.  To be honest, when He is moving a person's heart, they usually think it is their idea.  When it comes to the verse about the king I quoted, do you think that only applies to godly kings?

A lot of this comes down to what you believe about God.  Is he not strong enough?  Smart enough?  Doesn't care?  Based on what you believe, that will determine how you pray.

I do agree that one has to be careful on what one expects out of prayer.  Just because you pray doesn't mean your wife will drop her lover, and you will have a perfect marriage.  I started off admitting my marriage continues to have problems.  But to be honest, there isn't a psychological technique written that will do that either.  But when you invite God to work on your marriage through prayer, He does work on making the situation better.  That could be by repairing the marriage, or it could result in divorce.  It can result in infirmity or even death.  I have had two major surgeries since marriage, and both of those caused my wife to value me more.  Other times, the problem just seems to evaporate, our hearts changed with no true resolution to the "problem."  I know from my experience that prayer makes a difference.

[empath]

I am all about prayer, especially healing prayer, so I have prayed about my marriage for a long time. Personally, I believe that the truth is part of the path to healing. If we don't have a honest assessment of where we are, we can't make the changes needed to heal. People also always have a choice (free will) about whether they will cooperate with God's leading.

My h seems to keep getting into situations where he is surrounded by people who are not okay with other's abusive actions. His solution to these is to withdraw from the situations - and he wonders why things haven't gotten better between us. I have become healthier and my life with God has been deepened.

My h also prays for our marriage -- he prays for God to "fix" me. I guess God is answering that one too, just not in the way the h wants it to happen.

[Enabler]

My h also prays for our marriage -- he prays for God to "fix" me. I guess God is answering that one too, just not in the way the h wants it to happen.

I don’t know if this is a laughing matter or not but I chuckled at the irony there. My W constantly says she’s praying for me, which is great, and hopefully God has answered her prayers... .maybe just not in the way she had in mind.

[Woodchuck]

My h also prays for our marriage -- he prays for God to "fix" me. I guess God is answering that one too, just not in the way the h wants it to happen.

I pray for our marriage.  I guess in a sense I pray for my W to be ‘fixed’ as I pray for her to find peace and happiness.  I think that is a bit different than praying for someone to change/see the error in their ways etc.  I do believe that the prayers I have made for both of us have given me more of a sense of peace.  As with your situation, things are progressing but not the way that was expected. 

WC

[formflier]

Good discussion, keep it up!

Sadly... .my wife and I don't pray for our marriage anymore.  I still do from time to time but it's certainly not a special focus on mine.

Generally my prayer life is about "they will vice my will be done, give me the strength and wisdom to know the difference."  (that kind of thing)

Joint prayer with my wife is sometimes like pouring gas on a fire.  It's certainly less than half the time, yet it's enough that I decided it was more bad than good.  Mostly because I wouldn't be able to see it coming.

It's been about a year and a half... .perhaps a bit more, since I last asked my wife for forgiveness for anything.  Sadly... I doubt I ever will again (barring a massive transformation in our r/s)

I used to have the attitude that "if there is a doubt... there is no doubt and I should be vulnerable and ask for forgiveness."  Well... I did, she laughed an especially deep and full laugh, used the Lord's name in vain and made up this crazy story about me asking forgiveness from her for taking the family out to eat.

I "Biblically" confronted her about what she did and she kept repeating "I didn't laugh." and wouldn't say anything one way or another about the other two elements. 

Another part of my belief is that "I'm not my wife's Holy Spirit"  Once I've clearly confronted sin... .it's not my job to convict her of that sin, I leave that to the Holy Spirit.

Keep up the good thread.

FF

[Woodchuck]

FF-
Your situation sounds much like mine.  I spent years apologizing for things only to be told that it was just words and didn’t mean anything etc.  I will still offer a simple apology if I recognize that I have said or done something wrong but it is a one time deal.  I will not grovel at her feet begging for forgiveness because she didn’t like the way I said something. 
As far as praying, if I do that with her, it is silent and she doesn’t even know that I am praying.  I will sit on the bed next to her while she is ‘asleep’ and put my hand on her and pray silently.  If I let her know what I was doing, she would attack me for being self righteous etc even though I am praying that she will find peace and happiness and that her hurt will begin to heal. 

I have arrived at a point where I feel that I can confront her with what I believe she is doing that is not biblical but then, as you mentioned, I just leave it at that. She is responsible for her decisions and even though it is difficult, it is not my responsibility to step in and help/save her especially when she doesn’t want help etc. 

WC

[formflier]

Can you give an example of how you "confront"?

Based on the intensity of where you wife is at... .I have a few other ideas about "Biblical confrontation".  I'll wait on your example before moving forward.

FF

[Woodchuck]

Can you give an example of how you "confront"?

Based on the intensity of where you wife is at... .I have a few other ideas about "Biblical confrontation".  I'll wait on your example before moving forward.

FF

This is an example from last night:

If you have such a huge issue with The youth leader, you need to take it to his supervisor.   That is straight out of the bible.  The way that you are handling things is not biblical in any respect.  You are obviously free to make your own choices but I cannot and will not support things that I believe are wrong.  I won’t try to control you and make you do what I believe is right but I also will not be bullied into ‘supporting and respecting’ you blindly and  without question.  I will continue to pray that you will find peace and joy.  I understand that you feel slandered and I am sorry you feel that way.  I have been very open about all my shortcomings and faults with anyone that I have sought counsel from.  I dont talk to people just to try to get them on ‘my side’.  I dont want a your side and my side.  As I have talked to people, I have identified areas that I can improve on and am focused on those.   

[formflier]

If you have such a huge issue with The youth leader, you need to take it to his supervisor.   That is straight out of the bible.  The way that you are handling things is not biblical in any respect.  You are obviously free to make your own choices but I cannot and will not support things that I believe are wrong.  I won’t try to control you and make you do what I believe is right but I also will not be bullied into ‘supporting and respecting’ you blindly and  without question.  I will continue to pray that you will find peace and joy.  I understand that you feel slandered and I am sorry you feel that way.  I have been very open about all my shortcomings and faults with anyone that I have sought counsel from.  I dont talk to people just to try to get them on ‘my side’.  I dont want a your side and my side.  As I have talked to people, I have identified areas that I can improve on and am focused on those.   

To be clear... .these are your words to her... your wife.  Right?

FF

[Woodchuck]

To be clear... .these are your words to her... your wife.  Right?

FF

That is correct

[formflier]

Right... .that's what I thought.

there was a time when I would have had a very "thorough" conversation or "statement" just like that.

You tied it up very nicely (from your point of view).

What kind of mindset would say this... .

"Oh babe... .sounds frustrating with youth leader.  At the moment I'm speechless.  What do you think you will do?"



FF

[Woodchuck]

Right... .that's what I thought.

there was a time when I would have had a very "thorough" conversation or "statement" just like that.

You tied it up very nicely (from your point of view).

What kind of mindset would say this... .

"Oh babe... .sounds frustrating with youth leader.  At the moment I'm speechless.  What do you think you will do?"



FF

That would be a validating mindset.  I have used similar words in the past, even yesterday, prior to the part that I shared.  I can look up the exact wording but I have expressed that I understand that she found the youth pastors actions to be disrespectful and usurping her parental authority etc and I have asked what she is going to do. 
Her response is that that she is going to be an 'involved parent' and be present at every youth function to make sure things are done 'right'.

At that point, I cannot see how I can validate that.  I do not agree with the choice she is making at all.  I am not standing in her way and trying to stop her but I am not going to be supportive or encouraging of her choices.  Her behavior is extremely destructive and demeaning to everyone involved.  I used to have the responsibility of dropping the kids off at their functions and helping them with some of their projects etc.  I was quite involved, not to the point that I was hovering and making sure everyone was doing everything right but I was involved at what I believed was a healthy level.  She is now involved to the point where the kids are not allowed out of her sight.  She sits there like a hawk watching everything.  Could I still participate, yes I could, but I view that as validating her behavior and I believe her behavior is wrong and unwarranted.  If I could look at it as grey, kind of like with the homeschooling, I could show support but this is to a completely different extreme.

WC

[formflier]

  I can look up the exact wording but I have expressed that I understand that she found the youth pastors actions to be disrespectful and usurping her parental authority etc and I have asked what she is going to do. 
 

Way too many details... .and by mentioning specifics... I think you are possibly validating the invalid.

Less is more... .  Whatever words you think up to say to her... .pause and only use 1/3 of what you first decided to use.

1.  That will build more time in.
2.  A more succinct message is almost always better.

Less is more  No details... .zip zero nada.

FF

[Fian]

Some great things were posted in this thread.  Personally, I think it is great when my wife prays to God about me.  Because He will do what He thinks is best, not what my wife thinks is best.  Also, when praying, I think it does open you up to being more open to hearing God speak to you.  So when my wife prays to God, I think she is more likely to hear from God about what He wants her to do differently.  I know I have seen the reverse in my life, where I pray to God about my wife, and God tells me what He wants me to change instead.

I don't normally pray with my wife about our marriage.  It is normally personal prayer where I bring up my marriage.  There is power when 2 pray together, but it can also easily be destructive where one is trying to complain about the spouse by talking to God.  So I agree that one needs to be careful, and I can easily see how the conclusion can be that it is better to pray alone.