Trying to change the positive reinforcements

[snowglobe]

So it’s been a while since I last wrote here. Lots of love bombing, idealization, physical intimacy, travelling and gifts. I got to see our children for the entire week after we came back from vacation. When he went back to work I took them with me, as they are out of school. It’s wasnt fun for the kids, as he takes the car and I’m unable to go anywhere far, as we live on the outskirts of the city. Our youngest son slept in the same bed with us, as he missed us. UBPDh was slowly withdrawing. Almost like he lost his comfort blanket. Speaking of myself. The lightning and the thunder broken out last night, as we were coming back home to bring the kids and spend the weekend. D15 told me about musical festival, so I got excited and texted a mutual friend if he can get us cheap tickets for the entire family. He snapped in the car. “Go get a job, I want you to get the most demeaning job for a few months, see how it feels like to make a dollar, then spend it, or not. If you continue the same way, I’m gonna walk in front of the bus?. If you continue milking the cow, till it no longer produces milk, you will get its guts out”. Few things as a side note, I didn’t jedy, I didn’t raise my voice or validate the invalid, I said I heard you loud and clear. Not only we had children in the car, we also had d15 friend. I needed to deescalade. I don’t spend money without his permission. When he goes into idealization stage, he treats me and himself to the finest. Do I enjoy it? Sure. Do I ever compromise the budget? Never.
Just before we left, he spend an obscene amount on new gun toys and sigaretts that he likes, that aren’t sold where we live. I could hav stops him, well, what’s festival tickets comparing to xyz? That doesn’t work. So I remained quiet and composed.
My friends resale expensive designer items, if I help them, I get a small commission. In his eyes should be win/win. But no, that would actually entail me seeing them, which is a waste of time according to uBPDh. I’m not allowed to have fun or see people, unless he gives me permission. He is sulking and begging to silent treat me.
How do I come out of it?

[Cat Familiar]

You were experiencing the upside during your vacation, then when you returned and were reunited with the kids, he began to show you the downside to his behavior. Though he'd spent money wildly, he was incensed at the thought of you trying to buy cheap tickets to the music festival for the family and embarrassed you in front of the children and your daughter's friend.

You didn't JADE and stayed composed, but you realize that he has different rules for you than himself and he keeps you from doing fun things or being with people, unless he gives you permission to do so.

What steps can you take to change this dynamic so that you can be respected in this relationship?

[snowglobe]

You were experiencing the upside during your vacation, then when you returned and were reunited with the kids, he began to show you the downside to his behavior. Though he'd spent money wildly, he was incensed at the thought of you trying to buy cheap tickets to the music festival for the family and embarrassed you in front of the children and your daughter's friend.

You didn't JADE and stayed composed, but you realize that he has different rules for you than himself and he keeps you from doing fun things or being with people, unless he gives you permission to do so.

What steps can you take to change this dynamic so that you can be respected in this relationship?

Thank you for turning the mirror on to me. I plan to speak in brief friendly sentences but by all means I won’t try to engage him, ask what is wrong or massage his feet as I used to. He needs to learn how to self regulate. Came home to him being even more sulken. Since I’m not crying or visibly upset, I know he will turn the heat up. Thinking of something I could do without spending the money, so I don’t get accused of being a spoilt kept woman. Will do some studying and spend time with the kids.

[Cat Familiar]

Good that you’re changing your response to his behavior.    And you’re probably right that he will turn up the heat, trying to get you to react. Keep holding your boundaries, so you don’t intermittently reinforce that behavior you don’t want.

[snowglobe]

Good that you’re changing your response to his behavior.    And you’re probably right that he will turn up the heat, trying to get you to react. Keep holding your boundaries, so you don’t intermittently reinforce that behavior you don’t want.

My friend who hasn’t seen me in 3 weeks wants to stop over and say hi. I alr day alienated more people that I can count by trying to hide BPD endured behaviours. I was brutally honest this time, this is me, this is my husband’s behaviour and this is my life. If you want, enter at your own risk. She still wants to stick around. My uBPDh seems confused and angry simultaneously. No, I’m not leaving the house or spending his money, so he can’t accuse me of it. I’m now spending “his time”, meaning, the time I should be spending making myself useful to him, is going to someone else. He looks like he is looking for a way to punish me. I’m drawing on all the emotional intelligence I have to show him, that only if he is nice, does he get any attention

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
People who are abusive expect us to hide their bad behaviors from the world. I did that with my first husband. Nobody knew what went on between us behind closed doors.

What about "your time"? You've been kept captive for so long, you've forgotten that you have every right to live life the way you want, not the way he deems important.

Yes, keep holding your boundaries. He might be building up for an extinction burst and you certainly don't want to reward that.

Cat

[formflier]

So... .wait... what? 

For clarity... .your husband threatened suicide as a consequence of you discussing tickets... .in front of your kids... and in front of your kid's friend.

Did I read this correctly?

I remember him saying bellicose stuff... but this?  Is this new?

FF

[snowglobe]

So... .wait... what? 

For clarity... .your husband threatened suicide as a consequence of you discussing tickets... .in front of your kids... and in front of your kid's friend.

Did I read this correctly?

I remember him saying bellicose stuff... but this?  Is this new?

FF

Yes @Formflier,
I’m trying to rationalize it in my head, he said it in especially nonchalant way, I don’t know how to explain. As if this threat is somehow a normal consequence of my spending (I assure you, it’s all safe, sane and consensual, at no point in time did my “purchases” compromise our financial well-being. So when he said in the car, in a very low and quiet voice, he actually seemed like he is calm “if you continue with the same spending?. (Not any different from 2 months ago) I will walk in front of he bus, analogy of milking cow till it’s dead, I remained composed and quiet. I didn’t validate the invalid. Which made him even angrier. He is withholding sex and affection from me, making snarling remarks and his signature “I want to f$& a young blood” shpeel. Nope, not even going there. There are two very simple explanation for his behaviour; a) he is back at work, it’s exceptionally stressful, b) his industry took a dive, significantly, him always being black and white, makes him feel that on paper when “lost” x amount. Me trying to explain that until you sold your shares, doesn’t mean you have lost is same is jadying.
In conclusion, yes, this self harm things are new, they only surfaced before my birthday crisis if you remember. Speaking of my birthday, my eyes are back 20/20, I’m still very dry and need eye drops daily, but at least my vision isn’t permanently affected. Thank you for your support

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe,
People who are abusive expect us to hide their bad behaviors from the world. I did that with my first husband. Nobody knew what went on between us behind closed doors.

What about "your time"? You've been kept captive for so long, you've forgotten that you have every right to live life the way you want, not the way he deems important.

Yes, keep holding your boundaries. He might be building up for an extinction burst and you certainly don't want to reward that.

Cat

Hello Cat, do you remember my birthday crisis? It was the last time I thought I could have “me” time. It seems that he doesn’t want to share my attention with anyone. That friend I had over, cane bearing gifts. She had some shoes she didn’t fit into, so she gave them to me. When my uBPDh found out about that after she had left, thankfully, he went berserk. Not only he doesn’t want me to spend time with people he doesn’t approve of, receiving gifts from others, according to him, is dimasculating him?. He says “so you think I’m a cheap ass who doesn’t buy you shoes? Look at your closet!”. In reality is is almost irrational in his spendings on me during idealization stage, so I could not think that of him in theory. Second, these are hand me downs, not a new purchases, it’s a practical thing women do with their friends.

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
I'm so glad your eye is better. That is a miracle.   

It's so typical that pwBPD try to divide and separate their spouses from anyone in the outside world who might somehow threaten their worldview. And your husband seems to have such a high measure of narcissism. That your friend's gift of shoes threatened his self image--whew!

To regain your autonomy will be an uphill battle. You'll need to decide how much you want it--or if you want to continue on as your husband's helper. And if you do want autonomy, then you've got to be all in. No intermittent reinforcement. Buckle up.   

Cat

[formflier]

And if you do want autonomy, then you've got to be all in. No intermittent reinforcement. Buckle up.   

Snowglobe

What does this mean to you.

What Cat Familiar has said here is critical.  So critical that if you get this wrong, you will make the situation worse.

FF

[snowglobe]

Both @cat and @formflier,
Thank you for your responses.
I want to address both of your replies, so here I go.
12 weeks ago I began online DBT skills training in addition to online therapy sessions. I have not been focusing on my uBPDh’s analysis, instead, I did a lot of peace with DBT tools, mindfulness, acceptance and emotional regulation. I feel happier as a result. I have also observed my reactions and responses to my uBPDh. We are both emotionally unstable and reactive. I realize that I have a problem and seek help, he refused to acknowledge. Cat, you are very observant regarding my uBPDh’s response regarding the gifts. He actually scored higher for npd then BPD, SURPRISE. Hence, my fears of his punishments and financial cut offs. Knowing that I do “practice ahead” in DBT terms. I often imagine my worse case scenario and try to practice my response. My anxiety is somewhat lower.
Regarding how badly do I want independence, self respect and freedom. Thinking in dear man terms, one of the most significant things that I would have to give up to get what I want, would likely be my children’s financial future. Weighing it in wise mind terms, knowing my son’s disability is likely lifelong, I am absolutely not willing to compromise that. Therefore, I’m going to learn and more importantly practice all the skills I have learnt thus far to cope with setuation at that moment.

[formflier]

Thinking in dear man terms, one of the most significant things that I would have to give up to get what I want, would likely be my children’s financial future. 

Please don't think this way.  This gives his threats power.

Frankly... there are laws that will protect you as well... .if he really decides that he will "never" give you money.

So... .if you decided to "stick with what you have"... .you are deciding to keep your kids financial future in the hands of a man that (doesn't ... fill in the blank with the things he has done)

Does that seem like a recipe for success?

FF

[formflier]

Please discuss in detail the suicide threat with your therapist.

This is what I heard, this is what I did, this was the result.

So that next time, you will have a bit of a "better" response.  Your T can also help you decide how and if to be proactive about these type of threats.

FF

[snowglobe]

Please discuss in detail the suicide threat with your therapist.

This is what I heard, this is what I did, this was the result.

So that next time, you will have a bit of a "better" response.  Your T can also help you decide how and if to be proactive about these type of threats.

FF

I have discussed it with a T previously, frankly, she thinks it’s pure blackmail and ways of stopping me on my tracks. She doesn’t believe there is any substance behind these threats based on his actual behaviour. Although believes seldomly go hand in hand with the actual carried out behaviour. @ff, regarding protection, sadly shaking my head, not in the kind of industry he currently is in. It will be a few years until it becomes a semblance of a regulated niche. Until then... .

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Snowglobe,
What's happening in your world lately? Any more threats or attempts to punish you? Keep us posted.

Cat

[snowglobe]

Hi Snowglobe,
What's happening in your world lately? Any more threats or attempts to punish you? Keep us posted.

Cat

Hello Cat,
His world is spinning out of control due to flactuation on the market, market is spinning, and he is spinning with it. He is curt, abrupt and bitter when when it comes to interaction. Last night he was cussing a lot, which I don’t like. Even though I know it’s not about me, every time those words leave his mouth, I can’t help but feel that it’s directed at me. I know he doesn’t do it when he is alone, or thinks he is alone. This is one person’s show. When we went to bed, he kept on telling me: don’t touch me, go to your side of the bed, move to your side”. It’s genuinely upsetting to sleep next to someone who doesn’t want even indirect physical contact. In order for him to get aroused, it takes one of two things: 1. Him feeling a threat from another person, when he sees another man as a threat, he is getting immediately aroused to have sexual intimacy, 2)I have to put out a freak show. The normal part of human connection through intimacy is unreachable for him. He never wants to be closer, or unified physically. It’s more of participating in pornographic movie, minus the cameras, sadly. I long and crave this “next level” emotional connection, where as him, it’s a purely physical act.
Once the market turns, which I’m sure it will eventually, so will his mood. He will be getting upset and annoyed that everyone around him is down. He has no recollection of the behaviour, words or events he was displaying prior to that.
We have a retreat coming up, with Marsha Linehan, early September. I purposefully booked separate tickets, in case he wants to cancel. I’m going regardless. Although, I have a faint idea that he would never let me go anywhere alone, especially in case I meet someone, as he says. He is scoring higher on npd then BPD, although violent behaviours are suggesting that he is on more severe end of the spectrum.

[formflier]

Are the kids and the friend still there?

Why stick around when he is cussing. 

As you said, he gives the show... .because he has an audience. 

What would your relationship be like if he was nice and got an audience... .and was mean and got alone? 

I'm glad you are doing to the conference.

When do you talk to your T next?  Have you talked to your T about the SI?

FF

[snowglobe]

Are the kids and the friend still there?

Why stick around when he is cussing. 

As you said, he gives the show... .because he has an audience. 

What would your relationship be like if he was nice and got an audience... .and was mean and got alone? 

I'm glad you are doing to the conference.

When do you talk to your T next?  Have you talked to your T about the SI?

FF

We drove back home with the children and d15 friend last Friday, that’s when he went through his meltdown, taking about walking in front of the bus if I don’t stop as much as thinking about fashion and purchases. Children went back to training and extracurricular activities while being looked after by my parents, and we drove back on Sunday, 2 days later.
I have no started to practice it, regarding leaving the scene when he is nasty. Last night I went to take the shower and never came back, went to the bedroom to read. He came back to our bedroom eventually and wanted to get intimate. Wow, this guy is completely backwards.
It’s not as much of a conference, as a silent DBT retreat. I will only interact with the specialist and practice radical acceptance, mindfulness and other DBT techniques.
I speak to the therapist on a weekly basis, still via Skype. I will address it further with her next time we speak. Her initial suggestion was not to let him blackmail me with si. My response has to be Set: I’m deeply worried you can hurt yourself, after expressing that earlier. You are going through some turbulent times in your industry, it’s not uncommon to feel overwhelmed under such circumstances. But the truth is, if you will be telling me these things I will need to contact our family physician and authorities to keep you alive.
Given his high predisposition for BPD, he won’t want to feel vulnerable and make this side knows. Which will discourage the bluff, hopefully

[formflier]

My response has to be Set: I’m deeply worried you can hurt yourself, after expressing that earlier. You are going through some turbulent times in your industry, it’s not uncommon to feel overwhelmed under such circumstances. But the truth is, if you will be telling me these things I will need to contact our family physician and authorities to keep you alive.
 

Is this what the therapist recommend? 

I would encourage you to discuss moving to a "no warning" call "stance".  SI is now on the table.  It may be wise to address it directly when he is calm now.  Then... .next time it ever happens, call right then.  T can help guide you on if calling 911 and/or family physician is correct.

Second:  What has been said to the kids about this?  This is not the kind of thing to be left unaddressed.  Remember, your hubby and you both carry patterns from your childhood with you.  What patterns do you want your kids to leave childhood with?

I would think best way forward is for your hubby to apologize directly to the children involved and describe the help he is seeking going forward.  (I get it "fat chance" is likely what you are thinking)

Somehow I would think give your hubby the option and then you address it with them if he wont (with guidance of T)


FF

[snowglobe]

Is this what the therapist recommend? 

I would encourage you to discuss moving to a "no warning" call "stance".  SI is now on the table.  It may be wise to address it directly when he is calm now.  Then... .next time it ever happens, call right then.  T can help guide you on if calling 911 and/or family physician is correct.

Second:  What has been said to the kids about this?  This is not the kind of thing to be left unaddressed.  Remember, your hubby and you both carry patterns from your childhood with you.  What patterns do you want your kids to leave childhood with?

I would think best way forward is for your hubby to apologize directly to the children involved and describe the help he is seeking going forward.  (I get it "fat chance" is likely what you are thinking)

Somehow I would think give your hubby the option and then you address it with them if he wont (with guidance of T)


FF

Forflier,
This thought keeps on playing in my head: I’m not sure if they heard what he said. It was very late at night, we were sitting in the front, while the kids far at the back. If they didn’t hear it, and I start talking about it, would I do more harm?
D15 frequently notices dad being maladrammatic and/or drama queen. Would she made out much of this?
Please speak to me about si. Admittedly, I know little of it. I’ve had two coming from him since April. What does it signal to me? I know he is out of control. But is he capable of it? No one knows for sure... .is it cry for help? Ultimate attention seeking?
I have never got an apology from my uBPDh in 17 years. The chances of that happening for the kids- are none. If I continue addressing it, his npd turns the tables and makes it all my fault. I’m sincerely worried not to make it worse.
How typical si and such threats for BPD? Are they ever carried out? I have not seen him in self distructructive mode, it is mostly anger and resentment directed outwards.

[formflier]

Are they ever carried out? 

Yes they are.

The thing is, we'll never know when.  When we are sure... it's too late. 

There is a chance he is serious about it and does it.

There is also a chance his "real intention" is to "try to do it", but not really meaning to (a bad scare tactic)... .and it goes to far.  Again... .you'll never know.  That's the thing, it's too late... no do overs.

Full disclosure.  There are many facets of BPDish stuff I'm quite familiar with. Honestly, I'm not familiar with SI and BPD combined.  I have dealt with SI a lot in the military, where the issue was turned over to professionals (which you and I are not).

I take note that of a handful of guys I put in "psych hold"... .zero of them died.  Zero.

My advice to you is to discuss this, in detail with your T.  That way you can deal with nuance in a way that we just can't in an online forum. 

I would also recommend you deal with the kid thing (tell them or not) with T.  Same deal, there is just so much nuance.  A professional can help you sort it.

I also want to encourage you.  I sense that YOU are making progress and taking deliberate steps to "deal with this" differently.

That's really good!  Keep it up

FF

[snowglobe]

Yes they are.

The thing is, we'll never know when.  When we are sure... it's too late. 

There is a chance he is serious about it and does it.

There is also a chance his "real intention" is to "try to do it", but not really meaning to (a bad scare tactic)... .and it goes to far.  Again... .you'll never know.  That's the thing, it's too late... no do overs.

Full disclosure.  There are many facets of BPDish stuff I'm quite familiar with. Honestly, I'm not familiar with SI and BPD combined.  I have dealt with SI a lot in the military, where the issue was turned over to professionals (which you and I are not).

I take note that of a handful of guys I put in "psych hold"... .zero of them died.  Zero.

My advice to you is to discuss this, in detail with your T.  That way you can deal with nuance in a way that we just can't in an online forum. 

I would also recommend you deal with the kid thing (tell them or not) with T.  Same deal, there is just so much nuance.  A professional can help you sort it.

I also want to encourage you.  I sense that YOU are making progress and taking deliberate steps to "deal with this" differently.

That's really good!  Keep it up

FF

Thank you FF,
I am great full to have a safe place to share my life struggles. I will not do anything until I consult with a T. I’m making a concious attempt not to make matters worse.

[formflier]

 
Hey Snowglobe

Can you give us an update on your situation?

FF

[snowglobe]

Hey Snowglobe

Can you give us an update on your situation?

FF

Dear @Ff,
Thank you for checking in with me. We are getting ready to depart tomorrow for the DBT retreat and I’m getting cold feet. UBPDh wants to quit smoking there, I’m not feeling optimistic. It’s a challenge enough for him to try and practice debt mindfulness skills, adding smokers withdrawal will likely send him running to the hills. I’m being vulnerable with you, I’m very scared. Scared that every time I will look around I will see his angry twisted face and him mouthing something nasty. I’m scared he will abruptly leave sending me into panic mode frenzy. I’m scared that his realizations will include that I’m the root of all of his problems. I’m scared that lack of physical intimacy will trigger him. I’m feeling selfish for wanting to focus there on me. I have so many unresolved traumas, that aren’t even mine perhaps. Something my mother passed on to me from previous generation. Lost doesn’t begin to describe what I feel. My kids will start school without me, my mother will be holding down the fort.
We had a family emergency, my step grandmother, whom I’ve never met, passed away in another part of the world. My step father flew in to pay his final respects. Now that it’s just my mom I’m begging to worry about them. My s11 has a great team of therapist who also help to manage his schedule.
I know that I’m self sabotaging. My friend said to me: “go in and surrender yourself to the experience. I’m sure they have seen “crazy” (she calls BPD crazy) thousand times over. They will know how to deal with him. Just think of the last time you were locked in a crisis during your birthday. It took months to get back to baseline, and you have completely checked out out of relationships. Don’t wait for the crisis, start preventive measures, which is this retreat”.
Although I agree with her, I also can’t help but feel that I’m setting both of us up for unrealistic expectations. After all, if only BPD could be cured with retreats, I’m sure all of you would have their spouses and significant others is one.
I’m afraid he will be scared, lonely and angry and come in my room to vent. I’m scared that he won’t and will have an epic tantrum. I also know I’m going through with it. Please pray for me

[formflier]

Here is my prayer for you.

I hope that you go and experience the retreat, regardless of the choices of other people. 

Have your own experience.  Learn your own lessons. 

Let other people (like you have any control anyway... right?) have their own experiences... .let them dysregulate... .let them (fill in the blank)

Realize this.  It's your feet that are cold.  Get some cozy socks for yourself... .and go to your retreat.

Perfectly... .absolutely perfectly natural for you to have cold feet.  It's wonderful that you realize this... a very important step to you getting to a better place.

FF

[pearlsw]

Hi Snowglobe,

I hear that you have a lot of fear and uncertainty. I remember what it was like to feel this way at times with an unpredictable partner.

The SI issue came up for me earlier in the year as well. I was scared/shocked/and somehow calm about all of it. Like my body just goes through a list of various reactions and tries them all out.

I spoke with professionals at the time who told me, helped liberate me a bit from my fears, as well as offend me to be honest, that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop someone intent on suicide. So, if they are going to, they will the pros say. If it is meant as a threat you have to work on not letting that kind of threat work on you - paralyze you - because it can.

It sounds like you are getting so overwhelmed, and that can happen when too many crises happen in rapid succession, I've been there, and you lose a bit of your balance in life. We're here holding you up, lending you our strength to keep moving forward. I am excited to hear what you will be learning in this workshop and hope you share more with us about it!

Perhaps developing some personal mantras to comfort and soothe yourself in your private moments of struggle could help? What words would bring you the most peace to hear? I might say something like "I am not alone. I am okay. I will be fine. This will pass." etc., etc. What might you say?

sending you prayers and wishing you peace, pearl.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Snowglobe,
That's a lot of "what ifs" that you've listed.     Pearl has given you some great ideas.

Yes, it will be scary, but at the same time, you'll both learn skills that can help your relationship. You realize it won't be a quick fix, but having both of you learn these things together will certainly be of help. It's a very positive step that he's willing to go.

Like your friend mentioned, the professionals there have dealt with people like him before, so you'll have support at this seminar for whatever comes up.

I hope you have a great time and this will be a good time for you to confront your own worries.   

Cat

[snowglobe]

@Cat, @Ff, @Pearl,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. I was disappointed to learn that Marsha herself won’t be attending the retreat, what a bummer. Instead another zen master, and Marsha’s student will lead the way. I’m bracing myself, and hoping that just like everything in life is caused, this retreat in its turn will shine through. I’m more inclined to make it work then not, so motivation is there. I’m also surprised by the fact that he agreed to unplug, especially sober. It’s a huge departure, as he normally works on evenings, weekends and holidays. Only when he is using, does he permit himself from not working for couple of days while he is on it. I hope to share all details with you next week once we are out