Cannot be trusted with my own kids?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I hope this is the best board to start this on.  I am extremely angry after a conversation that I had this morning.  I have planned to take our kids to see my grandparents next week.  I let my W know of my plans as soon as I made them and told her she was welcome to join us.  She told me that she had to work and would not be able to.  No big deal, I was going to go with or without her.  My brother had been wanting to make a trip to see our grandparents as well so I let him know of my plans and offered to let him go with us.  I doubted he would be able to go due to everything he has going on and therefore did not even mention it to my W.  Somehow (she won't tell me how) she found out that I had asked him if he wanted to go.  She was furious that I did that without consulting her.  She stated that she did not trust the kids around my brother due to his 'poor life choices'.  He is no different than anyone else.  He has had a few struggles in life but is not a drug addict or anything crazy.  She stated that if he was going, then I was not allowed to take the kids.  I told her there was no legal basis for that and that I would be taking the kids.  Magically, she no longer had to work and was able to adjust her schedule.  So not only does she not trust my brother (IMO baseless), she doesn't trust me to protect our kids and keep them from being in harms way or potentially compromising situations. 
This morning things went a step further as our daughter did not want to go to a youth project that they have every Saturday.  My W has insisted on going to 'supervise' and make sure that everything is done 'right' since our daughter started going.  My W told me that since our daughter didn't want to go that I could take our son.  I had already made plans for the morning and told her that she would need to take him as I already had plans.  From there, she tried to convince our daughter to go, making it appear that for some reason she did not want me alone with our daughter.  I told her later that I felt like she was treating me as predator and that I did not understand why she all of a sudden was not comfortable with our daughter being home alone with me.  She told me that she trusted no one, especially males, they are capable of anything.  I take this as insinuating that I am capable of molesting our daughter.  Is it true that anyone is capable of anything?  Sure, but to be told by your W that she believes you are capable of molesting your own daughter in absolutely gut wrenching!  I asked her what she based this off of and she told me that it was all based off of my affair 12 years ago.  She went on to say that I was lucky that the woman that I had the relationship with was not underage.  I have never had any interest in children (I cannot believe that I have to actually write that!) and find anyone that is absolutely disgusting!  Anyone that has any kind of pedophile tendencies has serious mental problems!  I have no idea how to process or deal with this curve ball.  I now feel extremely self conscious about being around my daughter and for no good reason!  Who knows what kind of garbage she (my W) is going to come up with next!

WC

[Woodchuck]

I hope this is the best board to start this on.  I am extremely angry after a conversation that I had this morning.  I have planned to take our kids to see my grandparents next week.  I let my W know of my plans as soon as I made them and told her she was welcome to join us.  She told me that she had to work and would not be able to.  No big deal, I was going to go with or without her.  My brother had been wanting to make a trip to see our grandparents as well so I let him know of my plans and offered to let him go with us.  I doubted he would be able to go due to everything he has going on and therefore did not even mention it to my W.  Somehow (she won't tell me how) she found out that I had asked him if he wanted to go.  She was furious that I did that without consulting her.  She stated that she did not trust the kids around my brother due to his 'poor life choices'.  He is no different than anyone else.  He has had a few struggles in life but is not a drug addict or anything crazy.  She stated that if he was going, then I was not allowed to take the kids.  I told her there was no legal basis for that and that I would be taking the kids.  Magically, she no longer had to work and was able to adjust her schedule.  So not only does she not trust my brother (IMO baseless), she doesn't trust me to protect our kids and keep them from being in harms way or potentially compromising situations. 
This morning things went a step further as our daughter did not want to go to a youth project that they have every Saturday.  My W has insisted on going to 'supervise' and make sure that everything is done 'right' since our daughter started going.  My W told me that since our daughter didn't want to go that I could take our son.  I had already made plans for the morning and told her that she would need to take him as I already had plans.  From there, she tried to convince our daughter to go, making it appear that for some reason she did not want me alone with our daughter.  I told her later that I felt like she was treating me as predator and that I did not understand why she all of a sudden was not comfortable with our daughter being home alone with me.  She told me that she trusted no one, especially males, they are capable of anything.  I take this as insinuating that I am capable of molesting our daughter.  Is it true that anyone is capable of anything?  Sure, but to be told by your W that she believes you are capable of molesting your own daughter in absolutely gut wrenching!  I asked her what she based this off of and she told me that it was all based off of my affair 12 years ago.  She went on to say that I was lucky that the woman that I had the relationship with was not underage.  I have never had any interest in children (I cannot believe that I have to actually write that!) and find anyone that is absolutely disgusting!  Anyone that has any kind of pedophile tendencies has serious mental problems!  I have no idea how to process or deal with this curve ball.  I now feel extremely self conscious about being around my daughter and for no good reason!  Who knows what kind of garbage she (my W) is going to come up with next!

WC

[ForeverDad]

My ex wasn't always displaying Borderline behaviors.  She was sweet in the early years of marriage.  But she saw various incidents in life as 'traumas' rather than rough spots to address and move on.  Over time there were more and more 'triggers'.  We stopped our years of volunteer religious work because she couldn't get along with other volunteers she worked with.  I mistakenly thought having a child (after married for over a decade) would help her focus her attention of the positives of a child discovering the world.  (I learned the hard way that having children, as wonderful as they are, does not fix dysfunctional perceptions or relationships.)  Instead she seemed apart from me after his birth.  Partly I think it was that I was now a father and it reminded her of her bad stepfather.  Partly too she acted as though she could love only one of us and I lost.  It became sexx rather than love.  It became her and 'her' child against the world.  Friends and family were driven away.  My relatives, even my elderly parents, were blacklisted.  She claimed everyone (but her) were "probably" abusers.

Once everyone else was isolated from us she started looking sideways at me, the last man standing.  I recall one time our son, probably 3 years old by that time, was fussing and didn't want a bath.  She got that suspicious "look" like I had to be doing something bad and insisted she would give him his bath.  He broke away from her, ran to me and pulled me along for me to give him his bath.  Imagine that, he preferred me over her.  That meant nothing to her, by then she had on her BPD blinders and filters fully in place.

Once we separated, the allegations began at any agency or office that would listen.  CPS investigated several of them, they were that serious, but always closed them.  I did manage to get them to issue one written report but all it said was that the allegation was "unsubstantiated" with no blame assigned.  It has to be really, really over the top for the professionals to choose to restrict the one accusing.  In years past I would characterize it as "they have to allow more allegations in case the 50th allegation contained some scrap of truth."

What I'm describing is that your spouse is likely working herself up to make allegations, yes even of the worst kind of abuse.  I lived through it, survived and eventually even got custody and majority parenting time.  From my initial temp orders with me as alternate weekend dad, it took about 5 years to become full Legal Guardian and another few years to get majority time.  Court seems to prefer moving in small steps hoping to find something that works without drastic changes.

All but one of her uncounted allegations were about child abuse.  Only one was about her.  When court issued it's decision on Change of Circumstances to allow me to proceed seeking custody, it included a brief note that ex had accused me of strangling her before we separated.  There was also another paragraph where it stated one of her statements was "not credible".  That was immense, that's passive court-speak for "Liar!"  (That was the infamous claim she made to support her sabotaging my mid-winter vacation so she could observe Kwanzaa, previously always ignored, which she described as a Jewish holiday.)

Whatever she does or claims, you can survive it.  Just don't fall for her slick manipulation, subtle traps and casting you as a bad person.  It happens often enough in divorces that your local investigators ought to detect the blaming and lying.  Over time her credibility will weaken.  Sadly, not immediately.  The professionals may have to investigate the more serious allegations but in time they ought to figure her out, that she's trying to obstruct your reasonably normal parenting and sabotage you from getting as much parenting time and authority.

Always have angelic behavior around her and the kids.  Never lose your temper around them.  Never say or do anything that could later be cast as abusive or threatening.  Even if she is screaming, don't scream in return.  It is crucial that you don't Gift her any basis to claim you're a bad guy.

[livednlearned]

What is your daughter's relationship with her mom like?

[takingandsending]

Hey, WC.

Best thing you can do in those situations (and most difficult) is to remember it is all projection. It's all hot air, built up from the pressure of intense emotions of self hate or self doubt rolling around inside your wife. It is actually not personal, even though it is aimed in a way to appear extremely, couldn't-possibly-be-more-personal. It is all about your wife. All of the manic need for control, all of the attacks and blame - this is all about her, little about you or your children.

Re-read your post about Saturday. She insists on supervising D's youth project. D doesn't want to go - it's not fun bonding time with controlling mom. Mom is rejected. Mom needs to exert control v. deal with rejection. She tells you to take S. You say no. More loss of control. More emotions she cannot cope with. So she tries to salvage situation and convince D to go and vent frustration at her own feelings at you by blaming you for something you have never done - molesting your kids or at least being capable of it. None of what is going on has anything to do with D, S or WC. It is all your wife.

I am sorry this is happening to your family. The only thing you can do in the midst of a dysregulation that big is to have boundaries when the attacks become that vicious. Stop asking questions, stop engaging, stop encouraging her abusive torrent. Validate that you are aware of her concern, state your boundary: you disagree and will not discuss further as you are feeling angry/upset/attacked, take kids and yourself out of her presence, tell her you will be back in half an hour, proceed with your life, period. Do this over and over and over. It will become flat, impersonal, stale, but you will have more peace of mind and clarity about what is actually going on.

I would consider retracting your offer regarding her joining you and your brother and your kids visiting your grandparents. Be honest. Tell her you are not comfortable with her joining, given the way she feels about your brother. Let her know you will have the kids call her and talk to her at specific times while you're gone, and then do that so that she doesn't have the abandonment freak out. She is going to fight your boundaries, but just stay strong in doing what is right for you.

[ForeverDad]

I would consider retracting your offer regarding her joining you and your brother and your kids visiting your grandparents. Be honest. Tell her you are not comfortable with her joining, given the way she feels about your brother. Let her know you will have the kids call her and talk to her at specific times while you're gone, and then do that so that she doesn't have the abandonment freak out. She is going to fight your boundaries, but just stay strong in doing what is right for you.

I agree.  By offering to include her you were appeasing her in response to her maligning your reasonably normal brother.  Yet that didn't stop the discord.  You're at the point where appeasing isn't working anymore.

The only way for her to accept any of your new-found boundaries is to make them strong boundaries.  Irrestible force meets the immovable object.  Yes, it really can work.  Yes, there will be fireworks.  Yes, it may be to some extent an Extinction Burst or two or more.  (EBs are overreactions to new boundaries to coerce you into retreating back to her old comfort zone of control.)

In the future you can also ponder over which battles to fight.  Choose your battles on the more important issues.  In this case, she is (1) casting your relatives as blanket bad, typical tactic, and (2) casting you as unable to care for and protect your children.

[Woodchuck]

livednlearned-
Her relationship with both of the children is quite strained in my opinion.  She tries to not be cold and do things with them but cannot seem to help herself.  For example, she will take them out shopping or to the library or something like that but if they ask where they are going, she will tell them it is none of their business or something along those lines.  Not a great way to start a fun outing.  If she tries to work on a project, say a meal, with either of them, there is always a lot of tension and yelling etc which negates any good in the experience.

takingandsending/foreverdad
I do understand that it is all projection and that helps but that projection is only one small step away from legal accusations and since I know someone that was falsely put in prison for similar accusations, it is quite terrifying.  Fortunately, my D is old enough to speak for herself.
As far as disinviting her on the trip, I don't know if that is really a good idea or even possible in reality.  Sure I could tell her that she was not invited but that would just result in her making sure she went with us.  She does not cope at all with anyone telling her what to do.  This goes back to before we were married.  Her parents told my parents that it was pointless to try to talk to her about waiting a bit longer to get married because no one could tell her what to do.  The only way around that would be to sneak out without her knowing and I don't have any peace about going about things that way.  In all honesty, I am not uncomfortable at all with her going.  If she goes, she can do her thing.  I am just going to go about the trip as I would if she was not there. 

WC

[formflier]

Focus heavily on the "appeasing" comment by FD.  I think if you reflect on the "attitude" that led you to make that comment, you  may find it prevalent throughout your relationship.

Do you understand what your intention was in making those comments?  What were you hoping would happen?

FF

[takingandsending]

In all honesty, I am not uncomfortable at all with her going.  If she goes, she can do her thing.  I am just going to go about the trip as I would if she was not there. 

WC

Hi WC. I support your choice. For me, I told myself a lot of things I was okay with that I later realized was FOG, heavy on the F. I was afraid of the repercussions of most of what I did and said. I still am, even though I don't live with my xw anymore.

I have a hard time seeing how you can go about your trip as if she was not there. Hope you can do it, though. Do you have any plans for the types of boundaries that you need to enjoy yourself and allow the kids to enjoy themselves? Is it something your brother can help you with?

I remember taking a summer trip with my xw and my sons to a strings camp in Canada, when I knew that I was planning to tell her our marriage was over by the end of the summer. It was a 10 hour drive to the camp, and my wife had multiple, significant dysregulations during the trip. I had planned for how I would handle my boundaries, insisted on civil speech and took the kids with me when she could not manage that. I always returned when I stated I would. I did not step in to help her when she was having bodily pains, dissociation and other fun events that were hallmarks of our family vacations. And I did more or less what I wanted to do with the kids during free time from camp. But, it was a lot of work, very strained and would have been infinitely better had she not been there. I sort of went about my business as if she were not there, to the extent that was possible. Which meant that I sort of didn't go about my business as if she were not there. Old habits are really hard to break.

[Woodchuck]

Update:
I have been absent due to so much going on here.  This is a brief update on how the trip progressed. 

My W stated that she wanted to drive the first leg of the trip.  I did not want to fight about that and let her drive.  I turned on music that I knew she enjoyed but she turned it down (pretty much off) after only a few minutes.  I chose to not respond and the trip progressed in silence for about 90 minutes.  At that point, I told her that I was going to drive.  She pulled over and let me take over.  As I started driving, I turned music on that I like.  The kids like it as well.  She did not and tried to turn it off and I turned it back on and told her that I was going to listen to what I wanted to listen to and that she was the only one in the car that did not like it and if she didn't want to listen to it, she could plug her ears.  She proceeded to find headphones and told me that she hated me using music as a weapon and then put headphones on for the rest of the trip.  Once we were there, she acted like an angel which was great but a slap in the face at the same time.  Being more than willing to take care of dishes that did not go in the dishwasher, offering to clean up and help with cutting firewood.  None of that happens at home.  She refuses to respect the few items that we have that I have told her do not go in the dishwasher but has no problem respecting that somewhere else.  The trip back was pretty uneventful.  Things are back to how they always are where she refuses to talk or do anything to progress in any direction.

WC

[formflier]

Hey Woodchuck,

One of the frustrating things about "dealing with" a pwBPD is the hypocrisy or at least what seems to us to be hypocrisy. 

When presented with that we have a choice to "fight it" or to let hypocrisy expose itself.  (I get it that it can be more than a  dichotomous issue... .but lets stay there for sake of discussion and clarity).

I would challenge you to think about times you have "fought it" and then reflect on outcomes versus times you have "handed it back" and let your pwBPD wrestle with their own "reasoning".  (one of my favorite phrases... let them connect the dots)

What would it have looked like if instead of "showing her" what was what about the music (especially in front of the kids) that you let her "show herself"?

Which approach does it appear you picked?  Did you "show her" or "let her sort it out herself"?

What was the underlying battle about?

FF