Request to talk about ‘future plans’ from W...thoughts? - Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

MOD NOTE:  The first part of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329277.0;allShe is too busy working to talk about future plans now.  I understand trying to validate attempts at normal.  I believe that I have done this for years in hopes that things would eventually get better but it has always ended up feeling like a trap.  

The 'normal' only lasts long enough for her to get what she wants.  

I have been thinking about this post quite a bit and I think some of the 'miscommunication' or 'misunderstanding' on my part has been from posting on this board as well as the Family Law/Divorce board.  I guess I really feel kind of stuck between those two categories.  I do not feel that I am concerned with 'being' right, but more with 'getting something right', if that makes sense.  What I mean by that is, I am concerned about getting positive feedback if I somehow happen to do something that is even just pointed in the right direction.  I say that because I have been told that I maybe got something right once in the last 18 years.  I guess it is like the hotter/colder game that is played at times.  I feel like I am blindfolded and the the only feedback that I get is 'colder, colder, you couldn't get any colder'.  That does not help someone get going in the 'right' direction if there is no feedback on when you are getting hotter/warmer.  I have no problem with being told I am wrong, but atleast give me feedback on what I can do right.  For example, I buy my W flowers and she responds that she hates flowers and never wants them again.  I can easily respond ok, 'what can I do instead that would make you feel loved etc' but the response that I will get is "I can't explain that to you" or "if you loved me you would know" etc.  I don't care that I was 'wrong' or 'not right' with giving her flowers, what I care about is what I can do that will be taken as 'right' and she refuses to provide that information.  I am of the opinion that this behavior is intentional because it gives her 'justification' to not meet any needs/wants that I communicate (i.e. a little love note etc) because I am not meeting her needs/wants.  Nothing else makes sense.  I am not telling her that she should appreciate me thinking of her and bringing her flowers.  I am accepting that she does not appreciate it and asking what I can do instead.   I do not believe that I am willing to accept attempts from her until there has been resolution from the past.  The things that she has said and doubled/tripled down on, I can and have forgiven her for but that does not mean that I need to continue to trust her.  I cannot trust someone that says she would be relieved if I was dead or that she doesn't claim to love me and then when I express that those words are extremely hurtful and her response is that she is not sorry and that I deserve that and much more.  Knowing that she has that mentality and does not have the basic human decency to recognize how she has hurt someone and try to make things right, how can I trust her when she makes an 'attempt'?  Another example of me trying and it not being good enough... .I have been in the habit of locking bedroom door when I go to sleep because I want to know if she enters the room.  It is not a key lock, just the standard bedroom door lock that can be easily unlocked with a paperclip.  She sent me a text message a couple of weeks ago that she was disappointed that I had locked the door, she felt alone and wanted to be close.  So, what did I do, I started leaving the door open since she communicated a specific need I could try to meet.  She never showed up again even though I let her know that I was leaving the door open.  What is her response?  I had my chance and I should have not had the door locked when she felt alone and since I did, I failed and lost out on my chance to meet her need.  It doesn't matter that I had no way of knowing that in advance.  So, why try?  It is utterly pointless because no matter what I do or don't do, she will find fault with it.  There is no real way to have peace under these circumstances.  I am convinced that even if I could read her mind and know exactly what she wanted/needed and did what I could to meet those wants/needs, she would do whatever she could to find fault with how I did it or try to convince me that I was being selfish in doing what I did etc.  I don't think that things have as much to do with resentment on my part as the complete lack of faith that anything will be right or good enough but rather anything and everything will be invalidated in every way possible.

WC

[Woodchuck]

MOD NOTE:  The first part of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329277.0;allShe is too busy working to talk about future plans now.  I understand trying to validate attempts at normal.  I believe that I have done this for years in hopes that things would eventually get better but it has always ended up feeling like a trap.  

The 'normal' only lasts long enough for her to get what she wants.  

I have been thinking about this post quite a bit and I think some of the 'miscommunication' or 'misunderstanding' on my part has been from posting on this board as well as the Family Law/Divorce board.  I guess I really feel kind of stuck between those two categories.  I do not feel that I am concerned with 'being' right, but more with 'getting something right', if that makes sense.  What I mean by that is, I am concerned about getting positive feedback if I somehow happen to do something that is even just pointed in the right direction.  I say that because I have been told that I maybe got something right once in the last 18 years.  I guess it is like the hotter/colder game that is played at times.  I feel like I am blindfolded and the the only feedback that I get is 'colder, colder, you couldn't get any colder'.  That does not help someone get going in the 'right' direction if there is no feedback on when you are getting hotter/warmer.  I have no problem with being told I am wrong, but atleast give me feedback on what I can do right.  For example, I buy my W flowers and she responds that she hates flowers and never wants them again.  I can easily respond ok, 'what can I do instead that would make you feel loved etc' but the response that I will get is "I can't explain that to you" or "if you loved me you would know" etc.  I don't care that I was 'wrong' or 'not right' with giving her flowers, what I care about is what I can do that will be taken as 'right' and she refuses to provide that information.  I am of the opinion that this behavior is intentional because it gives her 'justification' to not meet any needs/wants that I communicate (i.e. a little love note etc) because I am not meeting her needs/wants.  Nothing else makes sense.  I am not telling her that she should appreciate me thinking of her and bringing her flowers.  I am accepting that she does not appreciate it and asking what I can do instead.   I do not believe that I am willing to accept attempts from her until there has been resolution from the past.  The things that she has said and doubled/tripled down on, I can and have forgiven her for but that does not mean that I need to continue to trust her.  I cannot trust someone that says she would be relieved if I was dead or that she doesn't claim to love me and then when I express that those words are extremely hurtful and her response is that she is not sorry and that I deserve that and much more.  Knowing that she has that mentality and does not have the basic human decency to recognize how she has hurt someone and try to make things right, how can I trust her when she makes an 'attempt'?  Another example of me trying and it not being good enough... .I have been in the habit of locking bedroom door when I go to sleep because I want to know if she enters the room.  It is not a key lock, just the standard bedroom door lock that can be easily unlocked with a paperclip.  She sent me a text message a couple of weeks ago that she was disappointed that I had locked the door, she felt alone and wanted to be close.  So, what did I do, I started leaving the door open since she communicated a specific need I could try to meet.  She never showed up again even though I let her know that I was leaving the door open.  What is her response?  I had my chance and I should have not had the door locked when she felt alone and since I did, I failed and lost out on my chance to meet her need.  It doesn't matter that I had no way of knowing that in advance.  So, why try?  It is utterly pointless because no matter what I do or don't do, she will find fault with it.  There is no real way to have peace under these circumstances.  I am convinced that even if I could read her mind and know exactly what she wanted/needed and did what I could to meet those wants/needs, she would do whatever she could to find fault with how I did it or try to convince me that I was being selfish in doing what I did etc.  I don't think that things have as much to do with resentment on my part as the complete lack of faith that anything will be right or good enough but rather anything and everything will be invalidated in every way possible.

WC

[Skip]

Woodchuck,

This is where you are... .

Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.

The "four horsemen" breakdown sequence plays out amongst the backdrop of partner compatibility. Basically compatible partners may demonstrate a whole lot of conflict, but they don't often become contemptuous and angry with their partners, because there are by definition few things that they will disagree upon. In contrast, partners who start out with incompatible goals, values or dreams are far more likely to get into seemingly irresolvable conflicts. Also, once the process of contempt, defensiveness and avoidance begins, small incompatibilities can become magnified as spouses pursue other interests as an alternative to conflict.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I suspect the basic incompatibility is over decision making / control. To her, you have had it for a long time by way of your career and style. This is what she is feeling - oppressed. The affair is the lightening rod of the most unbearable oppression - when she was trapped in a marriage, kids, no job, no options, away from family, humiliated - while you indulged yourself. Every time she feels oppressed, it triggers her back to the affair. Your reaction is then to use control to contain things. It's gas on a smoldering fire. The telephone is an example... .

So its a vicious cycle and it ends when you two either resolve the incompatibility (1) or walk away (2) or live in a state of contempt (3).

She is opting for 3. You are thinking 2.

1, sadly, seems out of the question. While you both seem to want to fix things, you are not going to risk it or dig back to the root cause and try to change it.  She is going to continue to make your life miserable as she feels its the only tool she has to fight back.

For the most part, you are rejecting this braoder assessment and prefer to go with she is a selfish, ungrateful, manipulative b that just wants to make you suffer.

Certainly you know better - you are closer to it.

Where do you go with that?  Where do you want to go?

a. We could try to help you resolve the incompatibility and the communication breakdown (if this is even an issue).

b. We could all jump on the outrage bandwagon with you... .and look at each event as unrelated to the broader, underlying issue and suggest tactics on how to battle back for the day or outwit her.

c. We could coach you on how to go deeper into cold war... .how to erect emotional walls so that she can't get at you and you co-exsist for financial reasons. Furnish your own living quarters, separate finances, create a new life.

d. We could work with you on the divorce board.

e. We could just be here for you and say, "it sucks".  Let you vent your frustrations until you are more committed to a direction/action.

All are valid. What sounds like the right direction for you now?

[Woodchuck]

I would tend to agree with the assessment if there were not clear warning signs even before we were married.  They were not evident until later on but looking back they are crystal clear.  The fact that her own mother told my parents to not try to get in her way, that she was going to do whatever she wanted no matter what, is a huge red flag.  This has been her mentality since before day one, I just didn't see it.  Can she help it?  Probably not, especially due to the fact that I have accepted and enabled that behavior for 2 decades.  I understand that it may appear that I am attempting to control things, however that is not my intent.  To me, it is having reached a limit.  She has told me for years she doesn't want or need me to do anything for her and I continue to give and give and give.  I have had it with the entitled attitude of continuing to use everything I provide while telling me she doesn't need me.  It has nothing to do with trying to control her, it has to do with me having had enough of hearing that she doesn't need me and giving her what she says she wants.  I have let those words slide off my back for years and tried to do the 'right thing' and I am at my limit.  IF she really doesn't want me to do anything for her then she can start taking care of herself and paying for her phone, car insurance etc.  It is not as if this is just something that she said once or twice out of anger.  This has been said for years.  

I would love nothing more than to resolve the incompatibility, however, in my opinion, that takes communication on both sides and as long as she insists on playing the hot/cold game and only giving me cues on how or where I am cold, that is not going to work.  As long as she refuses to be specific with what she wants and needs, there is no way to resolve the incompatibility.  I have tried for years to figure out what I can do to meet her wants/needs and have largely fallen flat on my face.  If she cannot/will not communicate her specific wants/needs, then I cannot continue to try to hunt in the dark.  As far as a direction, I am at the 'it sucks' stage in large part because I have no idea how I can handle a divorce with the current situation I am in.

 I kind of feel like I am not able to effectively communicate where I am at or what my thoughts are here.  I want there to be unity.  I want the incompatibility to be resolved and believe that I have done virtually everything I can to make things work.  Our pastor, who has had multiple counseling sessions with has told me to stop letting her emasculate me.  Several others who know both of us have told me the same thing... .….

[Skip]

Our pastor, who has had multiple counseling sessions with has told me to stop letting her emasculate me.  Several others who know both of us have told me the same thing... .….

Absolutely. There are bad symptoms here that you can address. We can coach you on how to get past this type of thing.

Do you think you can pick... .a, b, c, d, e ... .so that we have a direction here to work with?

[Woodchuck]

I believe that e. is where I am at.

[Skip]

I am concerned about getting positive feedback if I somehow happen to do something that is even just pointed in the right direction.  I say that because I have been told that I maybe got something right once in the last 18 years. 

This is a painful place to be. What was the last thing you did that was right?

[Woodchuck]

I am honestly not sure what I have done that she views as 'right'.  She told me last week that she can only think of one time in our relationship where I mostly got something right but would not detail what that was. 

[Skip]

Have you taken the depression test here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79772.0

How high did you score?

[Woodchuck]

I had not taken that test in the past.  I scored a 45.  My T has diagnosed me with severe depression/anxiety so it is pretty much in line with that.

[Skip]

Did he talk to you about thinking pattern distortions associated with severe depression? I know when I had my depression, I struggled with some of these.

Do any of these apply to you?

1. All-or-nothing thinking - You see things in black-or-white categories. If a situation falls short of perfect, you see it as a total failure. When a young woman on a diet ate a spoonful of ice cream, she told herself, "I've blown my diet completely." This thought upset her so much that she gobbled down an entire quart of ice cream.

2. Overgeneralization - You see a single negative event, such as a romantic rejection or a career reversal, as a never-ending pattern of defeat by using words such as "always" or "never" when you think about it. A depressed salesman became terribly upset when he noticed bird dung on the window of his car. He told himself, "Just my luck! Birds are always crapping on my car!"

3. Mental Filter - You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors a beaker of water. Example: You receive many positive comments about your presentation to a group of associates at work, but one of them says something mildly critical. You obsess about his reaction for days and ignore all the positive feedback.

4. Discounting the positive - You reject positive experiences by insisting that they "don't count." If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn't good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded.

5. Jumping to conclusions - You interpret things negatively when there are no facts to support your conclusion.

Mind Reading : Without checking it out, you arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you.

Fortune-telling : You predict that things will turn out badly. Before a test you may tell yourself, "I'm really going to blow it. What if I flunk?" If you're depressed you may tell yourself, "I'll never get better."

6. Magnification - You exaggerate the importance of your problems and shortcomings, or you minimize the importance of your desirable qualities. This is also called the "binocular trick."

7. Emotional Reasoning - You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: "I feel terrified about going on airplanes. It must be very dangerous to fly." Or, "I feel guilty. I must be a rotten person." Or, "I feel angry. This proves that I'm being treated unfairly." Or, "I feel so inferior. This means I'm a second rate person." Or, "I feel hopeless. I must really be hopeless."

8. "Should" statements - You tell yourself that things should be the way you hoped or expected them to be. After playing a difficult piece on the piano, a gifted pianist told herself, "I shouldn't have made so many mistakes." This made her feel so disgusted that she quit practicing for several days. "Musts," "oughts" and "have tos" are similar offenders.

"Should statements" that are directed against yourself lead to guilt and frustration. Should statements that are directed against other people or the world in general, lead to anger and frustration: "He shouldn't be so stubborn and argumentative!"

Many people try to motivate themselves with shoulds and shouldn'ts, as if they were delinquents who had to be punished before they could be expected to do anything. "I shouldn't eat that doughnut." This usually doesn't work because all these shoulds and musts make you feel rebellious and you get the urge to do just the opposite. Dr. Albert Ellis has called this " must erbation." I call it the "shouldy" approach to life.

9. Labeling - Labeling is an extreme form of all-or-nothing thinking. Instead of saying "I made a mistake," you attach a negative label to yourself: "I'm a loser." You might also label yourself "a fool" or "a failure" or "a jerk." Labeling is quite irrational because you are not the same as what you do. Human beings exist, but "fools," "losers" and "jerks" do not. These labels are just useless abstractions that lead to anger, anxiety, frustration and low self-esteem.

You may also label others. When someone does something that rubs you the wrong way, you may tell yourself: "He's an S.O.B." Then you feel that the problem is with that person's "character" or "essence" instead of with their thinking or behavior. You see them as totally bad. This makes you feel hostile and hopeless about improving things and leaves very little room for constructive communication.

10. Personalization and Blame - Personalization comes when you hold yourself personally responsible for an event that isn't entirely under your control. When a woman received a note that her child was having difficulty in school, she told herself, "This shows what a bad mother I am," instead of trying to pinpoint the cause of the problem so that she could be helpful to her child. When another woman's husband beat her, she told herself, "If only I was better in bed, he wouldn't beat me." Personalization leads to guilt, shame and feelings of inadequacy.

Some people do the opposite. They blame other people or their circumstances for their problems, and they overlook ways they might be contributing to the problem: "The reason my marriage is so lousy is because my spouse is totally unreasonable." Blame usually doesn't work very well because other people will resent being scapegoated and they will just toss the blame right back in your lap. It's like the game of hot potato--no one wants to get stuck with it.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

[Learning2Thrive]

Hey Woodchuck, it’s been a few days. How are you doing? Sometimes this stuff gets pretty heavy.  I just wanted you to know you’re being thought of and I hope you’ll pop back in when you are ready.  

Sending you positive energy and good thoughts,

L2T

[Woodchuck]

First I apologize for not getting back to everyone in a timely manner.  I have been swamped between work, retirement plans, securing a new job and a long list of other things.  I only have a few months left before I will be done with this chapter of my life and moving on to a different career.  Regarding the list of pattern distortions, I believe that 7-10 apply to me the most. 

Regarding the future and her wanting to talk about 'the future', I have asked her on many occasions since her initial comment if she wants to talk.  She declines every time.  I have come to the conclusion that she is quite happy to sit in this misery and will not take any action to change anything unless 'forced'.  I have talked extensively on here about her comments about not wanting or needing me to do anything for her.  As I believe I shared a few weeks ago, I told her that due to her not wanting me to do anything for her and her working almost full time, I would be dropping her from my cell phone plan and insurance on 1 October.  Today is that day.  I have really struggled with what the 'right' thing is to do but I have come to the conclusion that I need to follow through with what I stated I would do.  When I initially told her what my plan was, she immediately began looking into getting her own cell phone plan and insurance and told me that she was going to do whatever she could to be completely independent.  That lasted for 2-3 days and then went back to 'normal'.  As far as I know, she has completely dropped looking into becoming 'independent'.  If I do not follow through, then things will continue as they have for years and quite frankly, I am at the end of my limit.  I have struggled with what the best coarse of action is because I want to provide for her, like most (I am assuming) husbands want to provide for their wives, however, I cannot or at least will not continue to provide for someone that sees fit tell me that they don't want or need me to do anything for them.  I anticipate that following through with my plan with move the needle in one direction or the other.  I am at peace with whichever way the needle moves as long as it moves. 

She handed me one of the Gottman books, The 7 Principles of Marriage, and told me that I needed to read that book and follow it if I wanted our marriage to survive.  I took the book and started reading it.  2 days later, it disappeared out of my room.  I asked her if she had taken it and she said she had and did not expound any further.  It felt like it was nothing more than a test to see if I would be receptive to reading it or not.  On top of that, it is my view that these books as well as all the others that I am reading are called 'self help' books for a reason.  They are not for you to 'fix' someone else but to fix yourself.  She sees it completely the opposite.

WC

[Skip]

You are definitely deep in 7 and 10. Those are distorted thoughts. Are you up to un-distort them?

She handed me one of the Gottman books, The 7 Principles of Marriage, and told me that I needed to read that book and follow it if I wanted our marriage to survive. 

Do you know how she came across the book? Is she possibly reading it (reason she took it back)?

It's a powerful book. If she is reading it (and you secretly read it too), you might find some basis for making small, but important, re-connections.

[Woodchuck]

Skip-
I believe the reason she came across the book is because of the Gottman seminar that I talked to her about.  Knowing her, she went into her research mode and looked into everything Gottman related.  She could be reading it, I am not sure.  I do agree that it could work for reconnections if used properly but as long as she has the mentality that I need to read it to fix me and that is 100% the problem, I do not see anything changing for the better. 

As far as undistorting thought patterns.  I believe I have been doing that slowly but surely over the last several months and plan on continuing to chip away at improving.

WC

[formflier]

but as long as she has the mentality that I need to read it to fix me and that is 100% the problem, I do not see anything changing for the better. 

 

If you are the one reading it, help me understand how her mentality matters?  Just like if she is reading it, does it really matter what your mentality is?


Let's say she doesn't change... not one bit.  But you read it, find something that helps you, and you do it.  Isn't that better? 

FF

[Woodchuck]

FF-
Her mentality matters to the extent that with the mentality that she has, that I am THE problem and I need to read the book and fix myself, OUR relationship is not going to get better.  I have about a dozen different books that I have read or am reading that are self help books and I am using them to work on ME.  I could be reading them and looking at ways that she could/should change but as I told my T today, they are self help books, not fix your spouse books.  I am sure that I can get plenty of good from the book, however it is not going 'fix' me as she states needs to happen.  A better way for me to have made the statement that you quoted would have been"... .I do not see our relationship healing and us becoming closer".

WC

[Notwendy]

I understand that with your wife, you feel a bit like Charlie Brown with Lucy promising to hold the ball this time so you can kick it. She does seem to reach out then withdraw it. I don't know why.

Still, I agree with Skip, there is no harm in reading the book, in fact, it may give you some insight. No matter what direction your marriage goes, information gained is information. So don't rely on her to provide it for you- get your own copy! Looks like his books are under $10 on Amazon - not a bad investment to show your willingness to read it.

This isn't the reason to get your own copy but it would be an interesting twist if your reading it was not under her control.

One thing I have observed about your situation is that, your wife acts, and you react. She makes a statement about you and it becomes reality. You don't have to leave the relationship to simply act on your own volition and you don't have to accept her reality as yours or put what you read under her control.  You agreed to read the book, she took her copy back----- go get your own copy. Maybe you can order a copy of "Passionate Marriage " and leave it out in your room  

[Skip]

I am sure that I can get plenty of good from the book, however it is not going 'fix' me as she states needs to happen.  A better way for me to have made the statement that you quoted would have been"... .I do not see our relationship healing and us becoming closer".

I do understand that you have no interest in attempting to resolve the marriage unless she complies with your expectations, which she is not going to do. You blame her for the problems. She blames you. It's a standoff.  She doesn't want to resolve. She doesn't want to leave. You don't want to resolve. You don't want to leave.

If you wanted to resolve and use resources like Gottman (best in the field), the process is generally that the wife (or the most unstable partner) airs their grievances first and when they see you are taking it seriously, they start to open up to hear us. You are not going to stand for that (in fact you would like to see the opposite), so it's a non-starter.

Additionally, while Gottman techniques can improve communication, they will soon dig into what the incompatibility or conflicting values are between the two of you, and its important to be open to significant change to resolve. Again, the wife (or the most unstable partner) will need to see some serious good will before they kick in themselves. I suspect the conflict here is in power and control - she feels you have had too much over the years and she wants to level the playing field.

So, just for curiosity, would you level the playing field under the right circumstances?  Give her full equal say in how the family operates, lives, etc. ?

I only ask in the sense that the gap between what you are willing to do, and what it would take to try to salvage your marriage, is huge.

You are 100% correct. People shouldn't buy self-help books and just give them to others with orders to fox themselves. It's much better for the couple to both use the book to work on the relationship. Attending a Gottman seminar would have been a venue where the professionals layout how the couple needs to work together and how and they would be available for ongoing support when the couple gets stuck.

[formflier]

What if you got the book.  Read a couple chapters and asked her to go grab a burger.  Not a big date, but some time away.

You guys are enjoying a burger and shake and you pull out your copy and say "Hey... .in chapter 2, I though this was really interesting and would like to give it a try.  What do you think?"

she'll say no... .stay calm.

"oh... .which part would you like to work on?"

relax... .she say no.

"OK... .thanks for the book recommendation, I'm open to talking more."

"Hey... I think I'm going to get another order of fries... want to split them?"

then keep on living life.

What I like about this plan is she is now reacting to her... .and it's "soft".

The part Notwendy said about she speaks and it becomes reality, in detail... .would be a first thing to change to relax some.

Finally... .think about what Skip is proposing.  Think about the bazillion leadership classes you have taken.  Do we wait for the E1s to do (xyz) before we lead?  

Right... .extend that thinking to your relationship.  Be the leader... .

FF

[Woodchuck]

Skip-
I feel very frustrated as I don't feel like I am able to communicate where I am at with things.  I do not solely blame her for the problems.  I have spent many years apologizing for my role in creating problems, faults, failures etc.  I can count on one hand how many times she has apologized to me in the last 18 years and have a few fingers left over (No, that is not an exaggeration).  I have heard many many more 'I am not sorry, you deserve how I treat you or what I say to you and much more'.   If I didn't want a resolution, I would not be on here trying to figure things out, talking to a professional T for months, reading countless books and continuing to try.  I have heard her grievances over and over and over and over and have apologized over and over and over and asked what I can do or what she needs and her response is to tell me that I need to figure it out or discuss what to do with my T or something along those lines.  I have apologized and tried to make amends in any way I can think of and none of it has made a hill of beans worth of difference... .all the while, putting my own hurts aside (since I deserve them according to her) and trying to focus on her hurt.  It seems to me that she just wants to stay hurt and stay being the victim. 
I am not sure how I have any power or control except of finances.  Is that a big one, sure but raising the children is much bigger IMO.  Deciding on where and how they are going to be educated, who they are going to hang around and play with etc carries a lot more weight and impact.  What she wants with the kids is what happens regardless of what I think (aside from me getting my son a phone a few weeks ago).  All the major decisions about their lives are hers to make according her because she spends the most time with them.  I really don't understand what control you think that she needs or wants.  She does virtually whatever the heck she pleases.  If I give input on something and it is not in line with hers, guess what happens.  IMO, the playing field is tipped hugely in her favor.

FF-
My pastor called me last Friday and suggested I ask my W to go out to dinner with me that night.  I thought, you know, maybe this is a sign.  He told about a place that had a special that night.  So, regardless of what I thought would happen, I asked her if she would like me to take her out for dinner.  It is nothing fancy, just a family restaurant.  She was to tired.  This is par for the course.  She is either too tired or too busy or too something.  She has virtually no interest in spending time together.

NW-
The Charlie Brown analogy is quite accurate.  Today was another example of that.  In the past, I would send her a text and if I didn't hear back within 30-60 mins, I would send another text, restating the question etc.  She told me last week as one of her 'stipulations' for unblocking me on her phone was to not send more than one and wait for her to respond.  So, what did I do today?  I sent one, just one and 8 hours later, when I got home, I was accused of 'pestering' her at work.  I did exactly what she asked and again, not good enough.  It makes me very angry.  I am not opposed to reading the book at all.  I think, from the bit that I read, it is a good book and once I get caught up on all the others I have started, I will probably buy a copy.  I wasn't saying that I couldn't read it, I know I could get my own copy, I was really just trying to describe how things played out.  I did purchase a copy of the passionate marriage book.  It has been sitting on my night stand for the last month.  I have read several chapters.  It is good book.

WC

[Skip]

I am not sure how I have any power or control except of finances.  Is that a big one, sure but raising the children is much bigger IMO.  Deciding on where and how they are going to be educated, who they are going to hang around and play with etc carries a lot more weight and impact... //... IMO, the playing field is tipped hugely in her favor.

These are not currencies... .in a healthy relationship, both partners share in the financial and child rearing decisions. Financial control, is generally considered to be abuse. If you make all the financial calls and your career forces decisions on the family, she could want change now that you are retiring.

Things are way out of balance, both ways. The big cards in this game are controlled finances, infidelity, parental control (or even alienation), and dual emotional abuse.

There is no simple solution for this because so much water is over the bridge, but this is probably the epicenter of the storm.

She has virtually no interest in spending time together.

You both have telegraphed this to each other... .

I'm not picking sides or even calling the strikes and balls... .what I am saying is that there are underlying issues and resentments and the relationship is seriously damaged... .and solution is not likely to go back to the status quo.

There is an underlying problem.

[formflier]

FF-
My pastor called me last Friday and suggested I ask my W to go out to dinner with me that night.  I thought, you know, maybe this is a sign.  He told about a place that had a special that night.  So, regardless of what I thought would happen, I asked her if she would like me to take her out for dinner.  It is nothing fancy, just a family restaurant.  She was to tired.  This is par for the course.  She is either too tired or too busy or too something.  She has virtually no interest in spending time together.
 

Please tell me you went... .and brought her something back.  Fingers crossed... .

Big picture:   WC does the right thing.  He "leans in" he asks... .then he respects her decision and lives life anyway.

FF

[formflier]

I know we've been having a "big picture" discussion for a while... but I can't stand it.  I've got to bring up a "tactical" issue.

WC

If you have given her tons of apologies and it hasn't worked, I'm assuming you are done apologizing... right?


FF