A chameleon in the house

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Yesterday, uBPD H and I had a small gathering to celebrate my B's promotion at work.  My B had just acquired an important client and was very pleased.  H and I decided to host a small dinner at our house to celebrate.

As we know, BPDs are like chameleons and can change their beliefs and behavior given a social setting. At that point in time, they truly believe they are the person they are in that moment as they have no identity of their own, and have no sense of a time continuum.  Like the emotional infants that they are, they only exist for the here and now.

Anyhow, H invited his adult D and her BF to the dinner, and a nice meal was brought in.

About an hour into the meal, it became clear to me that the dinner was not so much a chance to celebrate my B's professional accomplishments, but a chance for H to be with his D.    H is enmeshed with his adult children (all almost 30) as I have mentioned in other posts.  pwBPDs have no boundaries and, as such, have problems with what is appropriate behavior with others.

H directly almost all of the conversation toward his D.  As dinner progressed, H and his D were, in front of everyone, tickling one another and laughing, poking, pinching one another, making inside jokes no one else at the table could understand.  The D's BF, also 30, sat in his chair with an expression of not knowing what to make of it.  He clearly felt awkward.  H and his D refused to engage with any one else at the dinner table. When H did turn to talk to me, it was to make a sophomoric remark about the blouse I was wearing, my eye glasses, what I had chosen to leave on my plate, etc.   I have never felt so left out by my H before.  Maybe H had done this dozens of times before, but I was not aware of it, nor the magnitude of it, until that day.

In short, H became a different person in the presence of his D.   He was not the father, but a pal of his D, a man in his teens or 20s, making his W the butt of jokes at her expense.  

To be honest, I am getting tired of the Jekyll and Hyde act.   From the dysregulations, punching holes in walls, breaking dishes and screaming divorce threats, to little catty, adolescent jibes like I endured over dinner, I am finding myself less and less empathetic to H's BPD.  

[AskingWhy]

Yesterday, uBPD H and I had a small gathering to celebrate my B's promotion at work.  My B had just acquired an important client and was very pleased.  H and I decided to host a small dinner at our house to celebrate.

As we know, BPDs are like chameleons and can change their beliefs and behavior given a social setting. At that point in time, they truly believe they are the person they are in that moment as they have no identity of their own, and have no sense of a time continuum.  Like the emotional infants that they are, they only exist for the here and now.

Anyhow, H invited his adult D and her BF to the dinner, and a nice meal was brought in.

About an hour into the meal, it became clear to me that the dinner was not so much a chance to celebrate my B's professional accomplishments, but a chance for H to be with his D.    H is enmeshed with his adult children (all almost 30) as I have mentioned in other posts.  pwBPDs have no boundaries and, as such, have problems with what is appropriate behavior with others.

H directly almost all of the conversation toward his D.  As dinner progressed, H and his D were, in front of everyone, tickling one another and laughing, poking, pinching one another, making inside jokes no one else at the table could understand.  The D's BF, also 30, sat in his chair with an expression of not knowing what to make of it.  He clearly felt awkward.  H and his D refused to engage with any one else at the dinner table. When H did turn to talk to me, it was to make a sophomoric remark about the blouse I was wearing, my eye glasses, what I had chosen to leave on my plate, etc.   I have never felt so left out by my H before.  Maybe H had done this dozens of times before, but I was not aware of it, nor the magnitude of it, until that day.

In short, H became a different person in the presence of his D.   He was not the father, but a pal of his D, a man in his teens or 20s, making his W the butt of jokes at her expense.  

To be honest, I am getting tired of the Jekyll and Hyde act.   From the dysregulations, punching holes in walls, breaking dishes and screaming divorce threats, to little catty, adolescent jibes like I endured over dinner, I am finding myself less and less empathetic to H's BPD.  

[Vincenta]

So sorry to hear that, AW   
Sounds like a humiliating experience to you.

How often your H and his D meet each other?

What exactly were his remarks (blouse, glasses etc)?

What happened when you arrived home (or hotel)? Did you have a chance to express any of your feelings to him?

[Vincenta]

PS I think many BPDs in a quite strange way regard their kids as very extensions of themselves... .I can see sometimes this type of behaviour my SO. Especially with his D22. 

[Sandb2015]

I just realized my NC SO pwBPD was doing this strange type of sheltering thing with her son, 14 when I moved in and we were getting along so well and he’d right me cards and ask it be private.  I was going to be a plus in his life, never a minus. In the last year or so, she really isolated him from me and started to censor what I say and how I should respond, I backed away thinking it is what she wants for him and now I know what I do and see she is ruining the kid, 17 now.

[Notwendy]

tickling one another and laughing, poking, pinching one another,

Between adult father and daughter that seems creepy to me.  And at a dinner party with other adults.

From what I have observed, the chameleon thing is a part of the disorder. Someone who has a poor sense of self would mirror the people they are with.

One possible boundary could be when and with who, the two of you are social together. If you want to socialize as a couple with your H, then the D is not invited. If he wants to be with his D, then let them do this on their own. If it's a family gathering then you know from the get go, that the two of them carry on this way. Some family contact is inevitable but you can make it clear when you want it to be the two of you in context of your social circle.

If he insists his D be there, considering doing your socializing on your own and he and his D can do their own thing. This looks like a long standing family pattern between them and not likely to change.

[Cat Familiar]

After I divorced my first husband with BPD, I dated a nice guy with a very emotionally troubled daughter for a while. I saw a similar dynamic between him and her and often when I was with them, I felt like a "fifth wheel".

It was a similar dynamic to what you describe about your husband's background with the kids. He would have chosen full custody, but his daughter was so determined to make her mother love her, that she chose to live out of state with her. (I suspect there are lots of personality disorders in that family.)

Because his time with her was limited, he went full-on Disneyland Dad with her and any wish from her was his command. It greatly disturbed me when he put no restraint upon her eating an excessive amount of sweets at every meal and I noticed her packing on the pounds. When I tried to intervene by suggesting healthy meals, I became the "wicked stepmother" and the dynamic soon became clear. It was them against me.

Realizing this, I distanced myself and ultimately ended the relationship. A few years later he remorsefully told me that everything I predicted had come to pass and he wished that he had listened to what I was telling him at the time: she weighed 350 pounds by age 16, had attempted suicide multiple times, etc.

It was an extremely unhealthy dynamic, much like what you observe with your husband and his children. I suspect that it would still be the same if I were in contact with the two of them now that she is an adult.

He so desperately wanted to be her friend, instead of her father. And thusly, he behaved in inappropriate ways trying to buy her love. It was like a wound that never healed.

I suspect that is the same with your husband. Notwendy has made an excellent suggestion that you no longer socialize with his daughter and he can spend all his time and focus on her. It's unfortunate what an awkward position this puts her boyfriend in, but perhaps that's good for him to realize what his potential future father-in-law might be like.

[AskingWhy]

After I divorced my first husband with BPD, I dated a nice guy with a very emotionally troubled daughter for a while. I saw a similar dynamic between him and her and often when I was with them, I felt like a "fifth wheel".

It was a similar dynamic to what you describe about your husband's background with the kids. He would have chosen full custody, but his daughter was so determined to make her mother love her, that she chose to live out of state with her. (I suspect there are lots of personality disorders in that family.)

Because his time with her was limited, he went full-on Disneyland Dad with her and any wish from her was his command. It greatly disturbed me when he put no restraint upon her eating an excessive amount of sweets at every meal and I noticed her packing on the pounds. When I tried to intervene by suggesting healthy meals, I became the "wicked stepmother" and the dynamic soon became clear. It was them against me.

Realizing this, I distanced myself and ultimately ended the relationship. A few years later he remorsefully told me that everything I predicted had come to pass and he wished that he had listened to what I was telling him at the time: she weighed 350 pounds by age 16, had attempted suicide multiple times, etc.

It was an extremely unhealthy dynamic, much like what you observe with your husband and his children. I suspect that it would still be the same if I were in contact with the two of them now that she is an adult.

He so desperately wanted to be her friend, instead of her father. And thusly, he behaved in inappropriate ways trying to buy her love. It was like a wound that never healed.

I suspect that is the same with your husband. Notwendy has made an excellent suggestion that you no longer socialize with his daughter and he can spend all his time and focus on her. It's unfortunate what an awkward position this puts her boyfriend in, but perhaps that's good for him to realize what his potential future father-in-law might be like.

Notwendy, I also think the tickle play was creepy--even more so when played out in full view of the young woman's boyfriend.  

Vincenta, I did mention it to H, and he became very hostile (short of rage) and said the play was all in fun and I was making an issue of nothing.  I do think, though, I hit on a chord at how inappropriate it was, and he said he would not do it again.  The comments about my clothing and glasses were mild, but not complimentary:  "Isn't that blouse a little too colorful?" "Gee, you really don't like the peppers in that sauce, do you?" etc.

Again, H is enmeshed with all of his children, especially his Ds.  He, too, was a Disney Dad who turn me into the evil and wicked one.  (His uNPD X W cheated on his while he was overseas in the military, then divorced him to marry her lover, taking all of the children.  H began drinking heavily and was borderline suicidal.)  In their teens, his children perceived the power he had given them, and demanded he divorce me; in one instance, one D threaten to hit me while H turned his back in cowardice, not saying a work to protect me.  It was only my good turn of phrase (a sharp personal insult) that caused the young woman to stop dead in her tracks; she never threatened me again.  Abandoned as I was, it was my only defence.

Cat, looking back, I should have left H a year into the marriage when I first saw signs if H favoring his children over me.  In truth, I was only the $exual outlet for him as he derived his love and validation from his children. Like you, I think they are all in some PD spectrum, including NPD in one D (emotionally abuses her own H), BPD in the other (promiscuity and suicide attempts), and the son is addicted to drugs and lives on the street.

Like the proverbial boiled frog, here I am 20 years later in the marriage.  It was only a few years ago that I realised H was most likely BPD when I saw the DSM.

Although the idea of "father/daughter" dates does not sound healthy (it reinforces the concept of the father and D as a twosome to the exclusion of his wife), at least it leaves me out of the picture to be a romantic rival for my own husband's positive attention.

And Cat, it was good to have the BF see the interaction.  The R/S with the D is getting serious, and they are moving into a house together.  The BF might have second thought about marrying her.  

[Notwendy]

Although the idea of "father/daughter" dates does not sound healthy (it reinforces the concept of the father and D as a twosome to the exclusion of his wife), at least it leaves me out of the picture to be a romantic rival for my own husband's positive attention.


I think it would help to reframe that. Fathers and daughters spending time together is not the same as a romantic date. It isn't unhealthy. It's the relationship between your H and his D that doesn't seem healthy. I agree that if the two of them spent their time together without you, it would keep you out of the triangle as the third competitor. That's an aggravation you don't need.

[AskingWhy]

Although the idea of "father/daughter" dates does not sound healthy (it reinforces the concept of the father and D as a twosome to the exclusion of his wife), at least it leaves me out of the picture to be a romantic rival for my own husband's positive attention.

I think it would help to reframe that. Fathers and daughters spending time together is not the same as a romantic date. It isn't unhealthy. It's the relationship between your H and his D that doesn't seem healthy. I agree that if the two of them spent their time together without you, it would keep you out of the triangle as the third competitor. That's an aggravation you don't need.

Notwendy, I can tell by your reply that your H does not children from a previous marriage.  Sadly, many second wives have their SDs (or even SSs) perceive them as rivals for their father's attention.  In the world of remarried women, there is the term "mini wi ves" (or husbands) in which Ds perceive their role is primary companion to their Fs.  That is why two-thirds of marriages with children (from one or both spouses) end in divorce.  There is once couple from our circle who is now divorcing due to the woman being enmeshed with her son from her first marriage.  One of my H's Ds asked me to "compete" for her father's attention, stating that a F should love his Ds more than their wives.  I am sure you can see how twisted this was.  (I believe all of his child ren are in the Cluster B spectrum.)

I agree keeping me out of a "triangle" might be helpful, but if there is a triangulating dynamic from the start, simply not being physically present may not be the entire answer.  

[Notwendy]

I don't think it is creepy for adult children to spend some time with a parent one on one, but I do think it is creepy to have a relationship with poor boundaries and what looks like emotional incest-which appears to be what is going on with your H. That can actually happen in a family where both parents are the biological parents as well, and happens with BPD parents. It happened between my mother and a sibling.

I agree it is classic for children from a previous marriage to resent the new step parent and it can break up a marriage in various ways. They are children who are affected by divorce and need stable adults to help them work through their feelings. I've heard about blended families where the parent prefers their children over the spouses children and that creates issues, but I think this is a result of the parents' dysfunction, as some blended families do work out. I am not surprised that many second marriages with children end in divorce, as blending families is a challenge. The first marriage may not have worked out because the parents lacked the ability to resolve issues in the first place - and bringing their dysfunction into the second marriage doesn't change that. 

I agree what your H is doing isn't emotionally healthy but he isn't emotionally healthy and his D may not know any different since she was raised with him. She may have her own issues from her parents' and their divorce.

It's really up to you if you want to be present or not when they carry on like that. I don't think you can stop them. Not being present would be for your own comfort- do you want to see them carry on like that, or go do something else you prefer to do. Not being there might send the message that the D wins, but being there also is a triangle where the two of them can collude.

[Cat Familiar]

It's really up to you if you want to be present or not when they carry on like that. I don't think you can stop them. Not being present would be for your own comfort- do you want to see them carry on like that, or go do something else you prefer to do. Not being there might send the message that the D wins, but being there also is a triangle where the two of them can collude.

And if he's in a better mood after he gets an "emotional recharge" from his daughter, why not let that happen with just the two of them on a regular basis? And as Notwendy mentioned, you could so something you'd really enjoy instead of having to spend time with them. That could improve your state of mind too so that when you are around him again, you both will have had some good "me" time and the dysregulations might be lessened.

[AskingWhy]

Notwendy and Cat, thank you again for your replies.

I agree there are advantages to having my H have his time with his D.  They do indeed have poor boundaries.   I am at a crossroads, like others on this board.  I am starting to spend more "me" time in pursuit of my own interests and pastimes, and very much in a mindset of a single or divorced woman.  I am not dating, of course, but my mind is not longer resting on seeing my H and me as a couple.  

For years, I yearned to be a couple with my H: dreaming of traveling with him, having him as my "one and only."  But he was too obsessed with his children and being their best friend.  He took them on exotic one-week trips, and often spent thousands of dollars at a time on fine gifts while my gifts, even for special occasions, paled in comparison.  

This continued long after the children entered adulthood, so I made up my mind to live only for myself.  I was tired of being the last on his list.   My H, before coming home from work, stops at the homes of his friends where he won't come home until 7 in the evening.  He invariably drinks beer with these friends and, in true BPD fashion, forgets he has a wife waiting at home for him.  Sometimes he would call and say he is "on his way home," and two hours pass.  The dinner I prepared would be cold, then he'd tell me the wife of his friend made dinner for them.  I stopped making dinner during the times of these visits.  H would come home and rage that I had no dinner prepared, and he'd bellow, "That is a what a micro wave oven is for!"  

That said, I am indeed enjoying "me" time and being alone with my own interests and hobbies.   Now my husband is sensing my backing away and becoming "nicer" to me: reducing the number of dysregulations (rages, name calling, overturned furniture, holes in the wall), wanting to spend more time with me. To be honest, I am no longer interested in spending time with him.  I am far happier on my own.  He is at the train station, but the train has long left the platform.

[Notwendy]

You may find yourself in some balance with the push/pull-  but not as a manipulative things but something sincere. I felt much like you- my H was hardly home, doing his own thing with work and hobbies and I was very sad, wishing he'd want to spend time with me and the kids. The begging, asking, didn't work. I didn't purposely pull away, I also took the mindset- married but emotionally single- and focused on the kids at the time ( as they were young) and later on figuring out "who" I was- I had spent so much time doing what other people want.

My H did notice the pull, and then became Mr. Romantic and wanted things to be like they were . I fell once again, but soon the patterns between us were there. I just couldn't go back to that and with MC, co-dependency work, (on my part )we are at a different place.

It isn't what I imagined- as you said,  I hoped we'd enjoy more things together, have mutual friends and interests, but we don't.  We still do some things together, but a lot of what we enjoy is on our own. Now that I am not pushing for more time  or intimacy, there is less conflict and that's better.

I also had to deal with my resentments and disappointments, and anger-- and grief.