How to handle wife wanting to move...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

There's a lot of back story here that I probably can't capture. The bottom line is that my wife has decided that she cannot be in our current town. She has been saying this more or less since we moved here. Actually before we moved here, even though it was her idea to move, and she was the driving force in the decision/process. Anyway, her feelings about this have gotten stronger, and she now has a T reinforcing it. I often get emails that express this. Below is an example from last night that is a more thoughtful expression of this than I usually get.

It is very important to me to be able to ask you for something I need and to know and see that you are trying to do those things. At my very core, it hurts so so much  to feel that you are not willing to even try to love me in the ways I need to be loved.  And not willing to take action that honors a life where I am happy and able to thrive. The thing that matters most to me in the entire world is being in a different place.  I need you to commit to that and show me that you are serious and sincere in thought, word and action. I am not able to be here any longer. That is the bottom line.  Every single other thing is  secondary. I cannot be here. The thing that matters the most is feeling like you genuinely want us to be somewhere else, to make a life somewhere else.

I would love to have a life with you. I would love to share a home with you. I would love for you to be home and to be working on and building a life together. I need you to take a very active part in that.  It cannot all be me.

I have tried to be honest with her about how I feel about moving, and what I am and am not willing to do. Roughly, (1) I am not willing to move somewhere without having a job, (2) I am not willing to take a significant pay cut or demotion in order to move, (3) I am happy to move if there is a good opportunity (and I have applied to about a dozen jobs this cycle), (4) I am happy to sell the house and support her living somewhere else, (5) I am happy to work on getting the house ready to sell, (6) I am happy to pay someone to do work at the house. I also talk with her about jobs I've applied for, talk to her about those cities, look at real estate with her, etc. I have done a lot of work on the house, and I work on things every time I am there for any length of time.

None of this seems to be enough or to be what she wants. I am not sure what she wants me to be doing. I don't know what the thoughts, words, and actions are that she is looking for. I feel like what she wants is an ironclad commitment that *we* will not be here next academic year. I can't commit to that. I can commit to searching for a job. I can commit to working on the house. I can commit to selling the house and supporting her wherever she wants to go if I don't get another job. None of that is enough, and those conversations don't go anywhere. It also seems to be impossible to talk about any of my concerns, like, do I need to ask in the job interview if I can sleep in the office?

This is the issue that comes up over and over again and is in the background of pretty much every aspect of our life.  I feel like what she wants is for me to be super excited about moving somewhere else. I'm not. Again, I feel like I've been honest with her about where I stand, and I've been doing what I can do. I don't know what else to do or say about it.  

[stolencrumbs]

There's a lot of back story here that I probably can't capture. The bottom line is that my wife has decided that she cannot be in our current town. She has been saying this more or less since we moved here. Actually before we moved here, even though it was her idea to move, and she was the driving force in the decision/process. Anyway, her feelings about this have gotten stronger, and she now has a T reinforcing it. I often get emails that express this. Below is an example from last night that is a more thoughtful expression of this than I usually get.

It is very important to me to be able to ask you for something I need and to know and see that you are trying to do those things. At my very core, it hurts so so much  to feel that you are not willing to even try to love me in the ways I need to be loved.  And not willing to take action that honors a life where I am happy and able to thrive. The thing that matters most to me in the entire world is being in a different place.  I need you to commit to that and show me that you are serious and sincere in thought, word and action. I am not able to be here any longer. That is the bottom line.  Every single other thing is  secondary. I cannot be here. The thing that matters the most is feeling like you genuinely want us to be somewhere else, to make a life somewhere else.

I would love to have a life with you. I would love to share a home with you. I would love for you to be home and to be working on and building a life together. I need you to take a very active part in that.  It cannot all be me.

I have tried to be honest with her about how I feel about moving, and what I am and am not willing to do. Roughly, (1) I am not willing to move somewhere without having a job, (2) I am not willing to take a significant pay cut or demotion in order to move, (3) I am happy to move if there is a good opportunity (and I have applied to about a dozen jobs this cycle), (4) I am happy to sell the house and support her living somewhere else, (5) I am happy to work on getting the house ready to sell, (6) I am happy to pay someone to do work at the house. I also talk with her about jobs I've applied for, talk to her about those cities, look at real estate with her, etc. I have done a lot of work on the house, and I work on things every time I am there for any length of time.

None of this seems to be enough or to be what she wants. I am not sure what she wants me to be doing. I don't know what the thoughts, words, and actions are that she is looking for. I feel like what she wants is an ironclad commitment that *we* will not be here next academic year. I can't commit to that. I can commit to searching for a job. I can commit to working on the house. I can commit to selling the house and supporting her wherever she wants to go if I don't get another job. None of that is enough, and those conversations don't go anywhere. It also seems to be impossible to talk about any of my concerns, like, do I need to ask in the job interview if I can sleep in the office?

This is the issue that comes up over and over again and is in the background of pretty much every aspect of our life.  I feel like what she wants is for me to be super excited about moving somewhere else. I'm not. Again, I feel like I've been honest with her about where I stand, and I've been doing what I can do. I don't know what else to do or say about it.  

[boatingwoman]

When replying, perhaps you can tell her you are taking action that honors a life where you are happy and able to thrive and therefore, you will no longer live in your car and at your work.  Then you can say that once you have a few months where you are living in the home, you will revisit this topic of hers at a later date.

[Cat Familiar]

How did it get to this point in your relationship where she is making demands to live elsewhere, not working, preventing you from living in your own home, and not recognizing that you are giving her several options to get her “need” met?

She does not seem to have any awareness nor consideration for how her demand affects your life.

[GaGrl]

Another member of this forum recently posted that his wife had driven 18 moves in 17 years of marriage. Your wife sounds uncomfortably like his.

A move won't resolve her unhappiness. It isn't the answer she's looking for. She could shortly look for the next new city and expect you to make it happen.

Your living situation right now is untenable. Resolve that, then consider the requirements for a future move.

If she isn't working, your ability to earn and support the household is the driving factor. Expecting you to move without a job waiting for you is magical thinking on her part.

[stolencrumbs]

How did it get to this point in your relationship where she is making demands to live elsewhere

I don't know. Fifteen years of giving in to those demands, probably.

not working

She decided very early on that there was nothing she could do here. Obviously that's not true, but she decided that and is sticking to it. I actually work two jobs (sometimes three). I work a minimum of 60 hours a week. I took on another part time job when it became clear she was not going to work.

preventing you from living in your own home

At first she wanted "space." At some point, it sure started to feel like a bargaining chip, or some punishment to try to get me to do what she wanted. I really don't know how she justifies it to herself at this point. We have an entire finished basement with a separate entrance that is literally never used. I do not really understand why, in her mind, I cannot stay there. 

She does not seem to have any awareness nor consideration for how her demand affects your life.

No, she doesn't. This is a big source of frustration for me. Any time I even begin to mention how any of it affects me, she flips out and accuses me of "beating her up" and "throwing things in her face."

[stolencrumbs]

Another member of this forum recently posted that his wife had driven 18 moves in 17 years of marriage. Your wife sounds uncomfortably like his.

A move won't resolve her unhappiness. It isn't the answer she's looking for. She could shortly look for the next new city and expect you to make it happen.

Your living situation right now is untenable. Resolve that, then consider the requirements for a future move.

If she isn't working, your ability to earn and support the household is the driving factor. Expecting you to move without a job waiting for you is magical thinking on her part.

Yeah, I don't think moving would make her happy. It might help on the margins, but I don't think it fundamentally changes anything. As with many things, I feel like I do them in hopes that she will see that these things don't actually make her happy. Her capacity to find a new thing that is the thing that will finally make her happy is very high, though. And that, obviously, isn't a particularly good reason for me to do something, especially something as big as moving and changing jobs.

[babyducks]

Ooofffff.

Hi stolencrumbs,

boy there is a lot to this.  a lot to react too.    and I am sure a lot of history.    still there is no way I have ever found to change history so let's take a big deep breath and see if there is a way to break this down into more manageable pieces.   Okay?

for a pwBPD feelings equal facts.  you know this.    for her this place she is living feels like the worst place on earth.   If you respond to her feelings with facts,... .the job... lateral moves... .house... .real estate market,  all she is going to hear is that her feelings don't matter.    I am not joking.   in emotionally charged topics pwBPD overload so badly they can't process.    this is clearly an emotionally charged topic.

if it were me, I would begin a response to this email with a parrot back to show I understood.   Cat is wonderful with doing sensitive mimic backs.  I'm not.    so with a tip of the hat to Cat, mine would look like this.

Okay, I understand that the thing that matters most to you in the entire world is being in a different place.   I understand that you are not able to be here any longer.   (that's kind of a SET from Support, Empathy and Truth. )

I see the comments about " need you to commit to that and show me that you are serious and sincere in thought, word and action."   as hooks or bait.  to get you to be responsible for her life.    I would ignore them,  they are over blown and over the top.  don't bite down on that.

as other members have posted,  you are clearly out of balance with who has the power and who has the responsibilty.   and as you have mentioned it's been this way for a while.   I am wondering if the time has come to shift the balance.   what do you think?

pwBPD have impaired executive function especially in times of stress.   In other words your wife can't think her way through this.    I would shorted the six options you provided to us into one or two sentences.    that's way too much information for her to process.     maybe something like,

'wife,... as much as I understand your urgent need to move, there are some finacial realities and job considerations I can not change.   I need a job equal to the one I have here, and for the house to sell,  I can not afford two mortgages.'

simple simple simple  short short short

I understand that one of her issues is she feels trapped in your current location.    this is a tricky one,... .but I would give serious consideration to telling her to okay go.     If her feeling is she is trapped, how do you feel about saying... .you are free to leave at any time ?

ducks

 

[babyducks]

This is a big source of frustration for me. Any time I even begin to mention how any of it affects me, she flips out and accuses me of "beating her up" and "throwing things in her face."

of course it's a big source of frustration for you.   if you mention how this affects you she will feel the shame, and blame and need to double down on how this is all your fault.   don't engage in that.    instead flip this around to a more proactive statements about how you are going to take action to take care of yourself.   

simple truth stolencrumbs,   if you don't respect yourself, and treat yourself well and kindly, she never will.

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks 'ducks. It is helpful to be reminded that it is about emotion, and she is not, at this point, going to hear any of the reasoning. I know that. But I also forget that. I'm also really grateful for the advice to make more proactive statements. I need to internalize that.

I have tried in the past to respond more or less as you suggest, emphasizing that I understand that she can't be here. And I do get that. I do not challenge that. I also tend to ignore the demand to commit to something. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this comes back to me and I'm accused of ignoring her and not being willing to "take a leap of faith" and commit to a life somewhere else with her. It's tough because that's actually true. I am ignoring that aspect of her comments, and I am not willing to take a "leap of faith" right now.

I have thought about the "Okay, go" strategy. I've actually said as much. I've said it while frustrated and angry, which wasn't helpful, but I've also brought it up in moments of relative calm, and it was discussed briefly in a session we had with her T. I'm open to better ways to do this. I've tried to present it positively. Plenty of people these days live separately for a variety of reasons. I have two colleagues who live here while their wives live elsewhere. It's possible, and seems to solve what she is telling me the immediate problem is. It's not contingent on me getting a job somewhere else. I am not trying to hold on to the house. I think it will sell pretty easily, and I don't need much at all (obviously) to live here. I can live here with what I make from a part time job. I am happy for the rest to go towards a life somewhere else. I cannot get my head around why this is not a better option than the life we currently have, or why the divorce she threatens is somehow preferable.

[boatingwoman]

“We have an entire finished basement with a separate entrance that is literally never used. I do not really understand why, in her mind, I cannot stay there.”

How in your mind did it get that you can’t stay there?

[stolencrumbs]

“We have an entire finished basement with a separate entrance that is literally never used. I do not really understand why, in her mind, I cannot stay there.”

How in your mind did it get that you can’t stay there?

It was easier to not be there. She would scream at me to leave, start destroying things if I didn't, self-harm, and threaten suicide. The easier route was probably not the best route, but that's what happened.

[babyducks]

I'm also really grateful for the advice to make more proactive statements. I need to internalize that.

Lots of "I" statements.    I will do this.   I won't do that.   I can do this.   I can't do that.    I am tired so I am going to... .     I've worked too many hours this week so I need to... .
 

I also tend to ignore the demand to commit to something. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this comes back to me and I'm accused of ignoring her and not being willing to "take a leap of faith" and commit to a life somewhere else with her. It's tough because that's actually true.

if I had to guess I would say this is what is driving her nuts.  pwBPD test relationships.    create situations and events that are tests to prove caring and love and concern.    If you do it,  you love her,   if you don't do it, clearly you don't love her but by not answering you are prolonging the fear.    make sense?

Plenty of people these days live separately for a variety of reasons. I have two colleagues who live here while their wives live elsewhere. It's possible, and seems to solve what she is telling me the immediate problem is.

your colleagues who live separately probably don't suffer from a serious mental illness.  they are probably able and willing to function as fully separate individuals.    you seem to have some difficulty taking on board that your wife does not process life like a functioning fully healthy adult.

. I cannot get my head around why this is not a better option than the life we currently have, or why the divorce she threatens is somehow preferable.

perhaps because she is managing her fears of abandonment, her need for attention, her rejection sensitivity, and her feelings of entitlement by keeping this hyper charged push/pull cycle going.    this is like a push pull cycle on steroids.    I won't see you.   I will email you.   I won't let you in the house.    I will demand you get the house in condition to sell.  I will kill myself and burn the house down.   PUSH.    "The thing that matters the most is feeling like you genuinely want us to be somewhere else, to make a life somewhere else. "    PULL.

you are thinking in logical, practical terms.   you are functioning in a world about options and realities.    She is not.   you do not share a common world view.     


to boatingwoman's point.    I get that it was at one point 'easier' to not stay in the basement.   I get that you are looking to avoid the destruction, the self harm, the threats.    unfortunately and I do mean that sincerely, that's not an option for you.     it's just not possible to avoid that.   

have you ever thought about what's the difference between an emotional leader and a caretaker?    it's here somewhere on this site.    an emotional leader has to shoulder the responsibility of drawing boundaries in a caring and thoughtful way even if those boundaries cause our pwBPD to experience pain.    a caretaker tries to protect the pwBPD from pain, distress and is never successful.


my best wishes go out to you.   you are in a difficult spot.     I hope you have all the success in the world of making your life better.

[babyducks]

I am ignoring that aspect of her comments, and I am not willing to take a "leap of faith" right now.
 

one other thought.

No is a perfectly acceptable answer.   No I am not willing to take a leap of faith right now.    It's also an I statement.   

[Notwendy]

I understand how you can't be in the basement- because then, you'd be on the premise. If she's sending you all these e mails when you are gone, she'd be doing it in person if you were there. Would be hard to get anything done.

My take on this is that, I think pwBPD have an external locus for their internal unhappiness. They believe that if that external thing happens, they will be happy. However - when it does happen, the unhappiness remains- because it wasn't the external thing in the first place. However in the time, they truly believe that is is.

I would bet that if you moved, it would not fix the issues. The difficulty for you is that- she believes it will and so long as you won't, then she's a victim. However, I also think victim position is comfortable in a way as it doesn't imply ownership of her issue. She's responsible for her own happiness. This way, she isn't accountable for it.

She saves face this way. People may wonder why she isn't doing things and she has an answer- I'm unhappy because my H won't move. Despite all you are doing to show her you are willing - if you have a job- by applying, or suggesting she live elsewhere- it isn't working. It may be that she needs this double bind to save face and not look at herself ( because it's so painful to do so and because of projection/denial) or she has fixated on you moving for her as the only way.

I think your boundary on only moving if you have employment is a good one. It's reality. It's not that you aren't considering her wishes, it's that you are the sole provider. I'm actually kind of surprised that a T bought into this- as it's a big thing to ask someone to move without a secure source of income.

There's a book called "wherever you go, there you are". I can understand wanting to move somewhere else if there are things there that you feel are important, but wanting to move to solve unhappiness doesn't work if the sense of unhappiness is an aspect of ones personality.

[stolencrumbs]

if I had to guess I would say this is what is driving her nuts.  pwBPD test relationships.    create situations and events that are tests to prove caring and love and concern.    If you do it,  you love her,   if you don't do it, clearly you don't love her but by not answering you are prolonging the fear.    make sense?

Yes, makes perfect sense. I've felt this for a long time. We first saw a T together about six years ago, and I remember talking in a session about feeling like everything was a test that I was constantly failing. This was well before I knew anything about or suspected BPD. She often says she can't stand being in "limbo," and this is a way of making sense of what she means by that.

perhaps because she is managing her fears of abandonment, her need for attention, her rejection sensitivity, and her feelings of entitlement by keeping this hyper charged push/pull cycle going.    this is like a push pull cycle on steroids.    I won't see you.   I will email you.   I won't let you in the house.    I will demand you get the house in condition to sell.  I will kill myself and burn the house down.   PUSH.    "The thing that matters the most is feeling like you genuinely want us to be somewhere else, to make a life somewhere else. "    PULL.

It has somehow not occurred to me to see it this way, maybe because the "pull" is pretty subtle compared to the "push." I would read about the push/pull in these relationships, but never really saw that much in my own. Thanks for pointing this out.

you do not share a common world view.

I guess I do have a hard time getting my head around this. I have a stubbornly persistent faith in the power of reason. While I can step outside of it and see that my wife is not operating as fully healthy adult, in my actual day-to-day life, I operate like she does.

Lots to think about here. Thank you.

[stolencrumbs]

She saves face this way. People may wonder why she isn't doing things and she has an answer- I'm unhappy because my H won't move. Despite all you are doing to show her you are willing - if you have a job- by applying, or suggesting she live elsewhere- it isn't working. It may be that she needs this double bind to save face and not look at herself ( because it's so painful to do so and because of projection/denial) or she has fixated on you moving for her as the only way.

This makes a lot of sense, and is also not something I've really thought about. It also explains why she seems to sabotage things. A year ago, the thing she claimed to need the most was for the kitchen to be remodeled. Then there was always something else that she decided needed to be done that delayed finishing the kitchen. The trim in the rest of the house needed to be painted, I needed to make new cabinet doors for the den, the paint color wasn't right, the cabinets weren't perfectly level, etc. There was always something else that had to be done before we could do things to actually finish the kitchen. And so we sit with a still unfinished kitchen. Maybe she needs that as a reason for feeling as she does and behaving the way she does.

Would that mean that on some level she realizes that the things she says she needs aren't actually going to "fix" things? Or does it happen subconsciously? I don't know.

This is all helpful, and gives me something to think about and maybe a different way of looking at things.

[Red5]

Then there was always something else that she decided needed to be done that delayed finishing the kitchen. The trim in the rest of the house needed to be painted, I needed to make new cabinet doors for the den, the paint color wasn't right, the cabinets weren't perfectly level, etc. There was always something else that had to be done before we could do things to actually finish the kitchen.

Me2... .

Trim work, never finished... .crooked tile work, not the right color... .start another project, start fight, never finish project... .we remodeled the master bedroom, bath... .moved walls, sawed into the slab to run claw foot tub drain... .plumbing... .electrical... .laid wood floors... .

I tell you we couldn’t even change a damn lightbulb without a fight ensuing... .

... .control control control... .

She drove me crazy,

Red5

[Notwendy]

I observed this pattern of behavior with my BPD mother. There was both- the absolute thing she had to have that would solve her unhappiness or the marital issues, or the "reason" why she couldn't do something- and if we tried to fix the reason, she'd make it difficult for us to do it.

I recall once she had to have this certain family vacation. It was going to make her marriage better. I don't know what choice my father had but  but she had to have it and so it happened.

It was a nice vacation. I don't think it solved my parents' problems.

After my father passed away, my mother said she wanted to move " and nobody would help her". Several times, either I or a sibling went to see her to help her and each time, she would change her mind, or not let us help her for some reason. She tells everyone she is moving, but doesn't take any steps to do so or let anyone help her, but needs to save face and tells people her kids won't help her.

The bottom line is like Red says: control. If she moves to any kind of assisted living or retirement, she won't have control. Yet people are concerned about her living on her own, so she tells them she wants to move. We have tried to help her in other ways but she tends to micromanage it. Like Red says, changing a light bulb for her would be a struggle.

Does she realize the things she says are not going to fix things? I don't think so. I think due to projection of her bad feelings on to someone or something else, she truly perceives that the source of her unhappiness is external to her and if only it was fixed or done, she'd be happy. Then when she isn't- there's another reason. I think she believes it.

The response to this, I think, is to hold on to your reality and your boundaries. Saying no won't make your wife happy, but saying yes is likely to only bring a temporary relief. Strong boundaries means not buying into the idea that you have control of her feelings. You don't. All you can do is control your side of things. Say yes to what you can genuinely say yes to, or are willing to do, but don't say yes when you really are not willing to do it. It's about your own values. If I treat someone kindly- it's because I think it is a good thing to do. I can't control how they react. Do the best you can but hold on to your sense of values and boundaries. You can validate her feelings "honey I understand how you feel,but I need to have a job in the place we are thinking about before I can consider moving there. I will continue to apply, but that is the best I can do at the moment"

[boatingwoman]

Maybe she can go on and move.  You don’t live in the house. You barely have a relationship. What is stopping her from moving if that will make her happy?

[formflier]

There are a lot of things in this thread... .and in the relationship.

At first glance it would appear that big thing in this thread is how to respond (consistently respond) to demands to be elsewhere.

Well... I would "go up a bit higher" and consider the question of "are you ready to shift the balance of power in the relationship?"

If the answer is yes, then further thought would need to be given to whether or not you make big shifts or smaller nuanced shifts.


Now... .I'm going to say that you have already shifted the balance of power a great deal.  Perhaps said another way, you've taken away a very destructive tool from her.

What do you think I'm talking about? 

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Now... .I'm going to say that you have already shifted the balance of power a great deal.  Perhaps said another way, you've taken away a very destructive tool from her.

What do you think I'm talking about? 

Taking away the suicide/burn the house down threats? That's something I have to keep reinforcing in my own mind, because it hasn't really been tested yet. I'm guessing it will be, and I've got to stay prepared to do what I said I would do.

Well... I would "go up a bit higher" and consider the question of "are you ready to shift the balance of power in the relationship?"

If the answer is yes, then further thought would need to be given to whether or not you make big shifts or smaller nuanced shifts.

Yeah, I think I am ready to do that, though I don't like thinking of it in terms of balancing the power in the relationship. I prefer to think of it in terms of me regaining some power over my own life. Maybe there's not a huge difference between those two, I don't know.

[formflier]

Taking away the suicide/burn the house down threats? 

 because it hasn't really been tested yet.


  I prefer to think of it in terms of me regaining some power over my own life. Maybe there's not a huge difference between those two, I don't know.

         

       

OK... huge smile from FF. 

You actually have tested it.  You described your boundary... .and she respected it.  Now... it's up to her to "test it back".  I wonder why she hasn't ?(seriously... .answer that question)

Regaining power over your own life is a very "boundaried" way of looking at this.  Nice work!

FF

[boatingwoman]

My brother killed him self last Fall.

Any time someone vocalizes a suicide threat, you MUST call 911.

[Red5]

Any time someone vocalizes a suicide threat, you MUST call 911.

I've been close to two in the last decade or so myself… Master Sergeant M&Mc… told us he was "mad at God"… and then he made the 'ideation'… we ignored it, and told him "yeah right Top, whatever"… and to "just stop it Mike, what the heck over"… that night he put a shotgun in his mouth… but it didn't kill him…

… and a few years back… Staff Sergeant RK said about the same… something about F_the world… then he added alcohol and pain pills… that night he used his sidearm, and he was successful.

Take it serious…

Red5