Now I am really conflicted

[Boll2017]

Now I am really conflicted.  After seeing I am distant she wanted to talk. 

I won’t get into a lot of details.   Will say the previous evening she talked about a friend of hers inviting her to drink and smoke pot - my wife is a 62 yr old woman.  She told me this is what happens when she starts looking for friends outside our marriage.  She said she was wild before we got married at age 40.  How I “reformed her.”   Saying it is easy for her to go back to that state. The implication is if I leave, these are the consequences.  I am responsible. Of course I took the bait and told her that she doesn’t need that friend.  I reminded her of her other healthcare friends.  She said later that she didn’t like how rational I sounded. 

But the next morning she thanked me for setting her straight.  In the meantime I slept terrible and had a nightmare.  It must have been frustration.

I said fine but I told her I can’t live the rest of my life worrying about other people and how they have misbehaved or slighted her.  I told her I am worn out.  I want to be content and calm in retirement. 

A few days before this talk I seriously discussed separation with her.  Result was her giving in on me having a relationship with my family - after over 20 years of tantrums about it. Although a few days later she said she gave me a “tremendous gift” by giving into my wish to talk to my family.

In the last couple of days she has been calm.  No acting out.  Less complaining about aches and pains.  Less conversation about other people’s problems. No drinking.  Talking about wanting to travel with me.

Now that she sees separation as real. she is Like a chameleon.  Totally different.  Agreeing to all of my demands.  Never happened before.

I would like to get other folks experience when their partners suddenly transform. Did they change longer term when they see you reached the breaking point?

I will let you know that she sees a psychiatrist but shares very little- telling me she doesn’t want to talk about our relationship - that is only between us she says.  Outsiders don’t play a role she says. Only talks to the Dr about her panic attacks and her anxiety about losing her mother to dementia. She only wants medication from the doctor.  When the psychiatrist offers counseling she refuses.  She has said many times over the years she will not do counseling. 

Appreciate any wisdom or perspective any one can provide.  I’m sure folks have plenty of experience with this

[Cat Familiar]

You have now experienced the “pull” part of the push/pull cycle.

It’s important to have strong boundaries in a BPD relationship. Otherwise you can find yourself giving into unreasonable demands again and again.

Here’s a link about the right way to go about Setting Boundaries

[Notwendy]

It's interesting that she says she has given you a gift- "allowing" you to speak to your family?

Does anyone have the right to take that away from you in the first place? Where in any rule book- religious or legal- does it state that talking to one's family is a wrong, or needs to be a privilege granted by one's spouse? IMHO it's a basic right. Even prisoners who have committed serious crimes are allowed to have visitation with family. ( at least in the US). We have recognized that is it inhumane to not do so- to the person, to their family.

Perhaps it would help for you to read some of the posts on the other family board from mothers who are heartbroken by losing communication with their sons whose BPD wives have decided against them somehow. Regardless of what direction your relationship takes, I hope you take this opportunity to reconnect with your family and make repairs with the people who have loved you and would be happy to reconnect with you.

[Boll2017]

Cat,

You inspired me to review “Stop Walking on Eggshells” which I read about a year ago.  For sure working on boundaries is the only way to make this marriage work.  I must own that task if I dont choose to separate.  It’s been two days now and she has been calm.  She is giving me more space. 

However, I am fearful this won’t last and yes, me, asserting boundaries lies ahead.  It is a long term effort.

In Eggshells, I quote the following:

“When it comes to chosen relationships, we found that the BP’s willingness to admit he or she had a problem and seek help was by far the determining factor as to whether the couple stayed together or not.
Of the hundreds of people we spoke with, when the BPs were truly committed to recovery, non-BPs were almost always willing to stand by them and help them through it. But when BPs refused to take any responsibility for the couple’s problems, no matter how hard non-BPs tried to rescue the relationship, the relationship usually ended.”

Excerpt From
Stop Walking on Eggshells
Paul Mason & Randi Kreger
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/stop-walking-on-eggshells/id403859991?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

I think this is where my weariness lies.  Saying she is giving me a “gift” that I can have a relationship with my family sounds more like nursing a grudge.  She still says it is the way I started contact with them that she resents.  I didn’t stick up for her. Her demand - I was suppose to tell them they had to approach her to patch things up before they could talk to me.  The truth is they didnt do anything that serious.  But I get it - she truly believes she was slighted.

My brother emailed and invited her out for a wedding but that wasn’t enough for her.  She needs to be a victim.  She won’t seek help for her BPD symptoms.

So I think boundaries work to contain the behavior but I am not sure boundaries create trust and faith in the relationship unless there is acknowledgment of a problem and recognition of the hurt the behavior brings.

Appreciate the dialog and the experience you and other folks bring to this discussion.

[Boll2017]

 NotWendy

Thanks for the validation.  It has been a struggle since my first call to my brother.  My wife,s anger and drinking.

My brother and my sister in law has been very supportive.  Although I don’t want to saturate them with my woes.

[Red5]

I didn’t stick up for her. Her demand - I was suppose to tell them they had to approach her to patch things up before they could talk to me.  The truth is they didnt do anything that serious.  But I get it - she truly believes she was slighted.

My brother emailed and invited her out for a wedding but that wasn’t enough for her.  She needs to be a victim.  She won’t seek help for her BPD symptoms.

... .I could’ve written that,

Red5

[Notwendy]

Re: Victim- please read about the Karpman Triangle. It's a model that has been helpful to me.

To be a victim, there needs to be a rescuer and a persecutor. Whether it is real or not, she has set up your family in persecutor role. Perhaps they said something she took offence at, or became concerned about her behavior, or something even minor, but they are the persecutor. She expects you to be her rescuer and stand by her *against* them. Add black and white thinking to this and it becomes a her side or not her side thing.

I observed this with my parents- BPD mom, rescuer Dad. If she was angry at someone- they were not on her side. Dad then was in the position to choose- her or them. Often it was someone more removed than a family member- it seemed the two of them were angry together at someone or something.

The "triangle" seemed to be a stable bond for them. If the two of them were aligned - looking critically at a third entity- they weren't looking at each other or themselves. They were aligned. She was feeling "victimized", he was soothing her. ( rescuer)But the "triangle" is still a dysfunctional form of relationship.

Where it got hurtful was with family members. Persecutors were anyone who she thought was "on" to her. Her behavior was our family secret and keeping it was to be on "her side". As kids, we were expected to be compliant with her wishes. As an adult, I decided not to be- she went into victim mode- Dad aligned with her. It was very hurtful. I learned this happened with his own family as well.

If you read some of the narratives on the other family board- the families are understandably heartbroken that they have lost contact with their much loved family member. . I hope you are able to maintain your relationships with yours. You will likely find yourself going to family events on your own. It's important that they invited her, but she will likely decline. (My mother gets furious if she isn't invited to events on my father's side, even though he's been deceased several years and she openly dislikes them. )

They won't be able to apologize enough to her- it probably won't ever be enough. You have to be able to keep your own boundary on your relationship. Also, don't bring them into the triangle by speaking about your marital issues. I wouldn't lie- if they ask, say it's difficult, but if you vent to them frequently, they then become part of the drama. A counselor or therapist would be the better choice.

[formflier]

Part of setting boundaries is setting boundaries "on" yourself. 

You expect her to "stay in her lane" and you will choose to "restrain yourself in your lane."

Solid work on keeping a relationship with your family.    Don't budge on that.

I would also encourage you to stop debating and/or even talking about it. 

Let that hang there for a bit. 

Certainly there may be logistics stuff that comes up from time to time but I can't imagine anything good coming out of debating or "explaining" the importance of family... .or whether or not she gave you a gift.

The boundary I would encourage you to constrain yourself with is to let her have her reality and you to keep your reality.  If she wants to believe she has the power to "give you" or "take from you" your family... .let that be her business.

Let your family be your business.

What would that look like if you lived out that boundary?

FF

[AriesTears]

 

It is tough... cat and books are great... .but my experience was loneliness... .not being heard...

First thing is that you find out your “values” and assuming “hurting people” isn’t one... .


Your conflict is about proabably because “what to do”, “I read stuff, still... .”


You give her/him unconditional love... .all the time...

But you can shield... . it is indeed possible... .try meditation... .and manifest your life to yourself... .


Despite... .crap... .she/him gives

If kids involved then... .be careful... . 

Otherwise your conflict boils down to your expectation of “loving a BPD” person without being blaimed... .it is not possible... .they will always split you, always make you feel little... .

They cant regulate emotions... .

[Boll2017]

Aries

Yes.   You are hitting it.  It’s about loving someone with this disorder while protecting yourself.  It must go beyond protecting to nurturing yourself where the other person can’t.  It takes mindfulness.  We must have stamina - understanding why we truly love the person in spite of the realities of their conduct.  This is tough stuff. 

[Boll2017]

FormFiler

Agree this is a good strategy.   I have been living outside this boundary and it has been damaging to my self esteem. 

 I realize that bondaries are healthy for my self esteem and protects my values.

My wife has resisted with emotional blackmail and splitting etc.   

I have to understand that she will show she doesn’t like it and I must sooth myself when she does.  This is my challenge    This must be my future with her.

[Boll2017]

NotWendy

I have a similar family of origin.    The major difference was my mother putting me on a pedestal and asking me to intervene and talk to my Father when they fought.  My memory is the fights started with her bullying and baiting him. This pattern started when I was 10 years old and it didn’t quit until I went off to university in another state and then stayed away during military service.  This was the 1970s before the BPD revelations we have today. 

Most of the time it was like you tell it for your family.  My father was engulfed in her side of the family.  I know next to nothing  about his family.  I know a lot about hers.  When his mother moved closer, my mother was constantly Feeling slighted.  I recall that this was the time when her anger at my father was greater yet he echoed my mother from what I saw - like he did with anyone else who she felt slighted her. 

My therapist says this was my blueprint for marriage. I fell right into it.  I can take a lot of punishment and keep functioning.  But I have a lot of anxiety when I am around her.  Perhaps it gets better with boundaries.  I know I can’t keep going with the status quo.

 I am resolved to get to know my family again.  I would also like to learn more about my Father,s side. 
 
 

[formflier]

I have to understand that she will show she doesn’t like it and I must sooth myself when she does.  

Perhaps you can "flip" the meanings or at least the reactions.

Before you "understood" your pwBPD would show they didn't like something and it would cause us (generally speaking) to react and do whatever we could to get some kind of approval/relief from our pwBPD. 

So... .we and they were "trained" that when they are unhappy... .they show us (usually in dysfunctional ways) and we respond by trying to "earn" their approval back... .by acting in ways they approve of.

Over time... .they realize that they control us and (oddly enough) loose respect for us and they show us they disapprove more... which leads us to put even more effort into trying to "earn" approval and now our return on investment is lower.  Maybe we just get a "peek" at what the approval used to be.

At some point... .we become "self aware" and realize that our actions are driving much of the problem.  So we change them. 

Now the "shoe is on the other foot".  The pwBPDs foot. 

They act in dysfunctional ways and it doesn't work... so eventually they start trying new things.  This is where improvement may happen.

So... .back to "flipping it".

When you act in a healthy way and you pwBPD disapproves.  Take it as "validation" that you are doing things right... .vice something unhealthy or troubling that you need to soothe yourself from/of.

Thoughts?

FF





[/quote]

[Boll2017]

FF

I see your point.  It is like a child who learns respect based on the boundaries.   They don’t see we buy into their reaction so it is no longer productive.  They don’t get the reinforcement that comes when they perceive us needing their validation.  It is interesting how capable they can be to control their emotions when they see undesirable consequences.  I’m seeing it now -my wife is no longer badgering me for attention after our separation talk last week. 

[formflier]

  It is interesting how capable they can be to control their emotions when they see undesirable consequences.  I’m seeing it now -my wife is no longer badgering me for attention after our separation talk last week.  

It may seem like she is in control, and she very well may be.  There is also a good chance there are times her emotions grabbed control.

I'm not saying give her a pass for those times... I am saying that to consider the way a pwBPD acts, especially when "off the rails", as a "choice" they have made... .is not a helpful way to think of it.

FF

[Boll2017]

FF

Seems to me it’s about being realistic that there is an illness at work here vice calculated manipulation. No value judgement - it is an assumption when undiagnosed based on what we learn here and in Eggshells etc.   

Making peace with that and having a healthy way forward for ourselves with boundaries etc is essential for the relationship.

[formflier]

Yes... .but... .

Why does this really matter.

Consider this:

If it is a calculated decision... something she has "thought through", the rational arguments, explanations and discussion would likely have an influence on your pwBPD.

If it is a result of emotional "upset" (of some sort)... .then dealing with emotions (vice rational thought) is likely to have the most impact (positively or negatively).

Very much like a baseball team showing up with all their baseball gear for the superbowl isn't going to turn out well.  They would be playing the wrong game, wrong gear... wrong rules.

Now... take that analogy and complicate it because perhaps at first glance it appears to be a baseball game, yet the baseball rules aren't working.

I'm a military guy.  So... while fights can be all over the place, military guys want to find the "center of gravity" of a fight... .focus your power and energy there.

For a pwBPD... emotional stability is their center of gravity, even though it might not appear that way at first.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So I think boundaries work to contain the behavior but I am not sure boundaries create trust and faith in the relationship unless there is acknowledgment of a problem and recognition of the hurt the behavior brings.

We establish boundaries, not to create trust and faith, nor to acknowledge problems or recognize hurt from others' behavior.

We establish boundaries to protect ourselves, pure and simple.

One of the side benefits of having boundaries is that it instills respect in others. People with BPD typically feel a lot of shame and self-loathing. If they can push us around and make us do things that aren't in our own self-interest, then it's easy for them to project some of those feelings of shame and loathing upon us.

If we stand strong and protect our values, then they cannot do that and they will treat us with more respect.

When you've been living without having strong boundaries, it can, as you've experienced, weaken your self esteem. It takes a concerted effort to establish boundaries when we haven't had them. When you do this, make sure to select a boundary that you will be able to defend 100%. Anytime you roll over, it will teach her that you don't mean business and she will likely challenge your boundaries even more vigorously. So choose something that is meaningful to you, that you can protect, and expand outward from there.

[Boll2017]

Sure enough I just got the opportunity to implement what both of you suggest.   I am working from home.  Come out of my home office for lunch and she wants to talk about how she wants to go off antidepressants since she has nightmares and doesn’t feeel right.  I validated the stress she articulated and her idea to contact her psychiatrist.  So far so good

But then it went south with another speech about how it was my fault that I want contact with my relatives and this need for contact makes her sick.   She said was fine until I flew back for my nieces wedding last August. After that she says she needed medication.  Not true of course.  She doesn’t remember throwing things at me and hitting me just before I left.

Anyway I reacted as FF suggested.  Essentially saying we have different perceptions and it is up to her as to what she believes. She then escalated with more splitting and throwing guilt as to it is either her or my relatives.  At that point I said I won’t discuss this any further and retreated to my home office.  After a few minutes she came in and started again.  I said if she can’t leave me alone I will leave the condo.  A few minutes later she came in again and I packed up my computer and headed for the door.

She did what she has done in the past when I tried to leave - she stood in the doorway trying to block it.  I told her in a raised voice she has no right to block my exit.  She wouldn’t budge   I then looked at her and shook my finger and repeated.  She stepped aside and I walked out.   

Now I am sitting in the Joint Base Andrews BX contemplating a room in billeting.   Thanks to you both for the tips.  I am a military guy as well.  I don’t like whining but here I am.

[Notwendy]

I think you did well staying calm and holding your boundaries.

Please read about extinction bursts and intermittent reinforcement.

Things are likely to escalate but if you back down on your "family" boundary-it reinforces her behavior.

What you want is to stay firm and calm until she learns her behaviors don't work.

It may take her some time trying out her behaviors to learn this. You have taught her in the past that they work, so why wouldn't she try them.

Hang in there!

[Boll2017]

Thanks.  She had tried call several times.   I’ll reengage with her when I am ready.   

[Boll2017]

Got a room for the night.   Didn’t want to deal with any more insults.  I told her I want alone time and want away for the night. Of course over 20 calls and several texts ensued which I sent to voicemail. 

[Boll2017]

Now she wants couples counseling.  She tells me yesterday that I no longer treat her like a queen and I am a selfish American.  She is European

I will tell her that we must have a starting point of mutual respect for counseling to work.   I am not optimistic

[Boll2017]

She also said over text that I am running away from her.  I left to escape the insults and the repeat family discussion.  Assume this is another one of those disconnects where she will not respect  the need to flee.  That is admitting something and the she can’t tolerate the shame. 

I called my brother last night and he was validating.  Nice