Triangulation with one's children

[AskingWhy]

As many of you know, my uBPD H is covertly inces ted with his adult children.

I married their father when they were all under 5.  All of them are clearly in th BPD pr NPD spectrum.

Whenever all or one of them visits, I completely disappear to H.  The object relations/splitting is very clear in these instances.  While the children were young and on visitation from their uNPD M, H would walk with his children and leave me tagging along like the fifth wheel.  The son on his shoulders, and the little girls on each arm.  I was only needed to take the girls into the public restrooms and to buy food and toys.  He would angrily reprimand me in front of the children:  "Didn't I say Jonny dislikes mustard on his hot dog?  Didn't I?  Weren't you listening? It looks like I have to get him another hot dog so he won't starve!  You're useless!"

As the children grew into their teens, they knew emotional blackmail would get them what they wanted be it cars, vacations, cell phones or other items.  They would threaten him never to visit him from their home with their mother clear across the country.  I was stomach turning to watch a grown man cower in front of his children and open his wallet to buy cars, designer clothes and expensive electronics.\

The icing on the cake was when they all demanded their father divorce me.

They are all near 30 years old now, and H is still unreasonable about his actions with them.  He wants his S, an alcoholic and drug addict who has been homeless many times, to care for our pets and house sit while we are on vacation.  I can see this young man having drug filled drunken parties while the cats and dogs scatter into the street and are killed.  I refused to let this happen.

Now H is mad and me and giving the silent treatment (pouting and not answering his phone.)  His children are extensions of himself and are "all good" while I am split bad.  I am not about the jeopardise the safety of the pets to an immature drug addict.  H is hollering at me and threatening how he will, for now on, go on vacation by himself. 

Has anyone else been triangulated with their children or step children while you are split black?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AW-

I’m sorry you find yourself in this situation... it’s a difficult and painful one to be in.  Ive been reading your posts for awhile and it seems the issue goes a bit deeper than triangulation with his kids.  It almost seems as if you’re at a crossroads of sorts in your marriage.

Please know, I’m coming from a place of real understanding and care for you.  I was in a LTR with a very uncaring man - A 19-year marriage to a NARC with BPD sprinkled in for good measure.  Our former T told me the diagnosis (recently).  My marriage ended the night he threw me across the room and into a door.  I landed on the floor in the hallway.  That was the one and only night he had ever raised a hand to me.  The prior years of emotional abuse were subtle (sometimes subtle), exhausting and constant.  I twisted myself inside out trying to keep that man happy.  But thankfully, I never relied on him for a living or a life.

I was however (now that I FINALLY understand it) sickeningly codependent.  And I understand why...

I had three stepkids who were 5, 9 and 14 when I entered their world.  There were two mothers.  So my codependency extended to a whole host of users.  I could not have children of my own, so I loved these kids dearly.  The younger two welcomed me with open hearts; while the 14-year old possessed the worst traits of each of his NARC parents and made sure I knew the disdain he held for me.  I’m a great pretender, and no one EVER knew how much I disliked that young man (who I would have done ANYTHING for) ... until January 1, 2011.  It was a good feeling to breathe... and I was nice about it.  Incidentally, the youngest is now 32.  My divorce was final in late 2012.

The triangulation attempts were made by the oldest kid and the mothers mostly.  And sometimes by the middle kid.  And tho’ I didn’t have a “name” for what they were doing, I stopped it when it mattered.  Respectfully and firmly.  When it mattered. 

But here’s the thing, my friend.  THE thing.  The past is gone.  Finished.  In my world and yours.  Nothing that happened can be changed, fixed or painted over with a different color or brush.  It is set in stone. 

The healthiest thing for YOU is to release that past.  And whether that’s with therapy or through a symbolic ceremony with a few close friends, I believe you owe that to yourself.  You can write down the hurtful things you recall, burn the paper and cast the ashes into the sea... but release yourself and that pain.  Tell yourself...”Enough”.  And forgive yourself for remaining silent those years ago.  And forgive your uBPDh for trying to “earn” the love and devotion of those little kids, who his uNPDw took away from him while he served overseas.  When she cheated.  Try to understand HIS pain. 

If you haven’t already,  sit with your H and address that pain WITH him.  But only if you want to heal and save your marriage.  If you want to be happy with your H.  You are NOT happy now.  And you DESERVE to live a warm and happy life.  I believe you both do.

Today is today.  The house and pet sitting is about boundaries, at least to my way of thinking.  And it’s about being at ease while enjoying time away and relaxation with your husband on vacation.  It’s not about triangulation.  Does your H acknowledge that his son has a substance abuse issue?  Does your H truly TRUST his son with your marriage home and your beloved pets?  If you use the communication tools, and use the “I feel” approach, (no accusations), I believe you can make this work.

Be smart in the timing of these conversations.  A difficult or touchy talk like this doesn’t take place over the phone when H is at work.  It takes place when no one is under stress, no one else is present and YOU present as if you WANT to be with your H.

Again, AW, please know I do care about your wellbeing.  I can feel your resentment toward your H has been steadily building.  And I get it.  I truly do.  If I feel it here, what does your H feel when he sees your eyes?

With disordered people, and our understanding of their behaviors and reactions, we KNOW that when they feel “cornered”, accused and “controlled” , the outcome is not pretty.   They have the equivalent of a flashback to what occurred in childhood.  I know this from experience.  I too, was a victim.  I understand my OWN reactions.

On the other hand, the UP note... we CAN obtain good results and growth in the relationship if we WANT that.  We can remind our partners what love feels like if we want that.  We have to be the “leader” in the relationship.  And I am telling you, with what I’ve learned here, and through my therapy, I have seen a dramatic shift in my relationship with my uBPDbf. 

AW - your primary relationship is with your husband.  Do you want that relationship?  If your answer is yes, then fight FOR that.  And discover how you can lead your marriage toward more healthy ground. And have a talk with your H about the two of you.  Leave the kids OUT of it.  If he knows he is YOUR priority, his focus on those kids may move out of front and center.  You just MAY begin to see exactly what you’ve wanted all these 20 years.

Is that worth a shot?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[AskingWhy]

Thank you, Gems, for the kind reply and support.

My H knows his S has substance and addiction problems, but he foolishly convinces himself things are fine.  He once loaned his car to his S for an out of town trip.  The S ended up selling the high end stereo system out of it (speakers and all, and using the money for drugs), then damaged a bumper.

H was making excuses for the S, saying it was an accident, and he really doesn't mean it, and so on.  H's big excuse is that the S never got a girl pregnant and was hit up for child support.  H parrots that every time I criticise something his S has done (dropping out of college, getting fired from work/quitting work, jail for drugs, alcohol abuse, relapsing several times after expensive rehab, homelessness.)  H has parental blinders on.  Pure and simple.

H, on the other hand, cannot get past the past.  He projects the rage he feels toward his uNPD F and uNPD XW.  H married me in order to subconsciously remarry his X.  I am the same mixed race as her.  He did not tell me this until we married.  Coincidence?  The very same cultural and ethnic mix.   He must have seen me and heard from his coworkers about this.  He courted me and love bombed me and I was married while my head was still spinning.  I feel so stupid for being so mislead by it all.

I understand H's pain (especially about his XW's cheating, divorce and taking the children) but my compassion stops the second he starts the divorce threats and name calling.  It stops immediately.  Then I welcome him to have me served.  I know pwBPD fear abandonment, and so far, he has made divorce threats for the last fifteen years.  Then again if he devalued me and has me served, I am also ready for that.  I stand to get a good amount for the sale of joint assets, and I have claims to his social security when I am of age and a portion of his retirement income. I contacted an attorney on this and I no longer fear divorce if it comes to pass.

Again, H is using me as his punching bag for the rage towards his XW and F, both NPD.  I will not tolerate that abuse.  I have been far too kind and compassionate in the marriage to him and his children.  I have a been a role model and support for his children, whose mother'sd married life is filled with adultery.  She is now on her third marriage to a much younger man whom she love bombed and hastily married.  

Gems, I appreciate the long response and support.  Sometimes I no more empathy left.

[AskingWhy]

It's infuriating for me to get reprimanded (including threats of divorce) for small things like chores not done, while his adult children are lauded for simply being sober.

One time his S was in jail for public drunkenness.  H went to pay his bail, then took the young man out to dinner with cocktails. You can't make this up!

When the S was too drunk, H drove him home and put him up to sleep in his old bedroom.  When S had sobered up enough the next morning, he ask H to drive him to a friend's house.  Then he disappeared.  We did not see him for a month, until he showed up asking for money.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AW- (please forgive the length of this post!)

First, please let me state that in my opinion mixed race people are without a shadow of a doubt THE most beautiful on the planet.  Without a doubt.  Second, I believe you judge yourself too harshly thinking a man would marry you simply because you “look” a certain way.  Plus, some people can tend to have “types”, a look that they find most appealing.  I used to LOVE men with intense jet black eyes and dark hair.  There was no WAY I’d EVER glance at a light-eyed, blond-haired man.  (I thought they weren’t “smart enough”).  But then...

No... there is way more to you than your lovely exterior, don’t you think?  And your H stayed married with you.  Despite his repeated divorce threats and his ability to actually leave at any time, he stayed.  These threats were / are his insecure and weak attempts at “testing” the level of your love and commitment to him, poor guy.   In my situation I liken my uBPDbf’s leaving threats to an adolescent “running away”.  It’s an impulse used when he gets worked up and doesn’t know what to do with himself.  But now I know how to bring him back to a more stable and serene state.   So AW - you’ve obviously brought more into this marriage than how you “appear” in his eyes when you quietly stand before him.  Please see that.  And you’ve stayed. 

And from the sounds of it, neither of you have strayed outside your marriage into the arms of anyone else.  I’m not an expert (although my exH was a horrid cheater I DO know now); but if your H is all about “punishing” you for the sins of his exW, wouldn’t he be stepping outside your marriage to drive home that point?   To really exact punishment?  But he’s not.  And he hasn’t.   Which to me means there’s something “meaningful” in there.  Unless he’s been impotent for the last 20 years.  And I don’t think so...  no, AW, you deserve credit for more than just the outer beauty GOD gave you.  Close your eyes on that for a moment...

Now his son.  A lot of men, disordered or not, see themselves in their sons, especially their sons.  Your H has one son.  And sadly, he’s NOT a shining example of what a father dreams of for his only son.  Not at all. 

Now think of a man with BPD traits... who had minimal control over what other men were trolling around the boy’s mother when he was serving overseas AND when she left with the kids.  And this son is troubled, an addict, school dropout, failed in costly rehab, stint in jail, fathered a child (where’s the baby?); has lived on the streets, cannot hold a job...endless failures so far.  Painful list.  Every failure of the child feels like a failure to the parent.  To every parent.  No, AW, your H doesn’t have blinders on regarding his son.  But if he admits out loud to the failures of his son, it just makes all of this stuff WAY TOO TRUE.  And if either you or your H ever answered any of those late-night calls when the son was arrested, that was acknowledgment of a problem.  Paying for rehab - acknowledgement of a problem.  Promises made and promises broken.  By the son.  To his father.  Ask any parent who has a child with similar issues.  Your H blames himself.  Silently, when no one’s looking... he blames himself.  But it’s too hard to say it aloud, so he’s “fine”.

So IF and when you wish to discuss his son, it’s got to be with compassion and without accusation.  That approach WILL change the dynamic between you and your H.  His son has an illness.  I believe, in your H’s eyes (and heart) when you point out the “badness”, make accusations against the son, your H feels a personal attack.   Remember one of our mottos here - to pwBPD, pointing to a “bad” behavior is interpreted as the person is ALL BAD.  Going further - BAD son = BAD FATHER.  So we tread lightly in delivering our message.  Criticism of the son Can take a more gentle form, and it will be received differently by your H. 

Finally, where you stand and why you stay.  I don’t know if you’re in the U.S. or not, but if so, did your attorney advise that receipt of a portion of your H’s retirement is dependent upon who files for divorce?  I know social security is NOT dependent on that.  What would happen if YOU were to actually file?  Would that step spark a desire in your H to take a seat at a table and speak WITH you?  Talk about the relationship with you?  I’m not saying to manipulate through a divorce filing, I’m just wondering...  I guess my question is “Why?”  Or “Why not?”

We both know that nothing changes until something changes.  And you’re the one person in this marriage who has insight.  You’re the one to be the catalyst to change the dynamic.  If you want.  Waiting is hard.  And it beats you down.

As long as you’re here there’s hope for goodness in your life.  So why not?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Notwendy]

I'm going to echo what gemsforeyes is saying. Your resentment is real and you've mentioned that you have a right to your anger. I agree with you. You have every right to be angry and resentful.

The problem with this is that it mainly affects you, not your H. He does what he does and may not be bothered by your feelings. The feelings bother you.

Here is where the co-dependent part comes in. Co-dependency is complicated. It isn't about being weak or dependent. Many co-dependent people are strong independent people. It's about how we deal with our own feelings. We can be really angry at someone. If that person stopped being a jerk, then we'd feel better. Our feelings depend on the other person changing. If only your H stopped triangulating with his children, you wouldn't feel so resentful.

But whose feeling is the resentment? It's yours! and looking at your H to do something to change your feelings is being co-dependent on him- because in this situation, you have placed the control, the ownership of your feelings in his power.

I know it isn't easy in a marriage but to begin to unravel this and to be less co-dependent is to take ownership of your feelings and decide how you can take care of you in the situation you are in.

So, you are angry about the triangulation. Can you change him? No, he's been doing this for a long time and this is what he does.

So he's mad at you right now for not doing what he wants? So what? let him be mad, it's his problem.

So he asks his drug addicted kid to house sit. It's hard to stop this- he may do it anyway, so how can you keep the items you value safe?

Take pets to pet day care while you are away.

Put your valuables like jewelry in a safe deposit box at the bank.

You also have choices. If you are constantly angry at someone, you might not want to be around them. It may even mean you choose to not  be in a relationship with them. But if you do, how can you take care of your feelings?

Not being co-dependent means also stepping out of the way of some consequences.Let the outcome be the lesson. So if your concern happens, and S has a party in your house and it ends up like "Risky Business" ( the movie). It's H's house too. He will see the damage. You've stayed out of this. I know this is a radical idea, but when you intervene, you become the bad guy. If the S trashes the house, then it's S's doing. On the other hand, S might not trash the house.

This part is hard. We want to protect, but we can only do so much. Having boundaries is about the things we can control- protecting ourselves and those who can't do that, like pets, children, the elderly. We can't control adults.

It will also help to see triangulation as a common pattern- with anyone. It's the model for a dysfunctional relationship. Your H isn't doing this to you. He does it because this is what he does.

As to why he chose you. Probably because he is attracted to you. Some people are attracted to certain physical characteristics. I know a man who has only dated blondes. He likes blondes. Who we are attracted to is very complicated- influenced by a number of things. Maybe he was looking for his ex in you, maybe not. But as gemsforeyes said- that was a long time ago, this is now. How can you feel better now?

[Cat Familiar]

It’s valid to be concerned about the welfare of your pets and the safety of your valuables.

I don’t like going on vacation with my husband for those reasons and more—when we are away, I have little opportunities to get away from him, unless I get up early to go fetch espessos by myself. He also likes to enjoy himself in different ways than I do. He’d rather sit on the beach all day and read, while I like to swim, hike, ride horses, do the zipline, etc.

And every vacation there’s usually some issue or meltdown or he gets an ear infection and we have to spend time in a doctor’s office.

So typically I stay home and look after the animals while he goes away for his Buddhist empowerments or to visit his sisters or to go somewhere to see operas and visit museums.

Even when we’ve gone to galleries and museums, he zips through them, while I like to spend time really drinking in the pieces that speak to me.

Much easier for me to stay home and enjoy all the activities I do here as well as hanging out with my animal companions.

[AskingWhy]

Thank you, Gems, Wendy and Cat.  You have all given me thoughtful and long replies of support and things to consider.

To be honest, I really don't want to go on vacation with my H.  It would be two weeks of visiting one of his Ds where all attention would have been on his D and the grandchildren--the extensions of himself.  I would have, again, disappeared to my own H.  I would have, again, felt like a fifth wheel while my H's attention was solely focus on his D and her children.  Just as when the D was a child, I would be the work horse sent to buy food and toys, buy groceries (again, with my own money) while H plays grandpa to his grand children.  Why spend all of that money and fly a thousand miles only to be ignored and better off in a hotel room?

Wendy, I am trying to come to terms with my own codependency.  You hit the nail on the head.  

Gems, I am sorry you had to deal with a host of enablers and triangulated relations.  I know well the pain this can be.  Thank you again for the considerate reply.

Just as Cat said, I am better off alone with my own house and pets.  I don't like making my own home vulnerable to irresponsible relatives, nor to I like the idea of allowing them to trash my home while I am on vacation.  How could I relax knowing my home and possessions are at risk?  Not all valuables, such as heirloom furniture, can be safely stored away.  Ditto for vomit and spilled beer on an antique rug.  

And now H is pouting (something he learned from his uNPD F) and sleeping on the couch and hinting at divorce again.

I am getting sick of the games.  

[Gemsforeyes]

Point well taken.  I thought this was a vacation that you and your H were planning to take, not a visit to his D’s house for 2 weeks.  I would agree... now is likely not a good time for you to take that trip if you have a gentle way to step away from that.

Perhaps a time to stay home, take some space, go to a T and work on YOU and your path toward happiness.  Maybe even explain somewhat honestly to your H that you’ve been feeling stressed and need to address that alone at home.  Not blame him.  Own it.  What do you think?

Time for some quiet reflection and clarity?

Gems

[AskingWhy]

Point well taken.  I thought this was a vacation that you and your H were planning to take, not a visit to his D’s house for 2 weeks.  I would agree... now is likely not a good time for you to take that trip if you have a gentle way to step away from that.

Gems, the visit to H's D was offered by H as a "vacation."  That way H could always point and say, "You unappreciative b****!  I took you on a vacation and all you did was look unhappy and bring everyone else down!  I hate you!"  Of course, that would be only when H noticed me during a short break from adoring his D and her children or while ordering me to go and buy groceries for the young woman's family.

Things like this happened shortly after our marriage when he had his children on visitation.  They were all under five years old and a handful.  A 30-minute trip to the grocery store away from his children was construed, by H, as his giving me "quality" time!  LOL!  He could have left his children in the care of his mother or a sitter and taken me out to dinner, or an evening out, but H deemed 30 minutes of his time (while actually engaged in the process of shopping for food) was all he thought I was worth.

[Gemsforeyes]

Okay, I get that.  And I understand that in your eyes this will most definitely NOT be a vacation!  Your H wants to see his D and the grandkids... there’s no way around that.  And you don’t feel a part of that.

So based on what I wrote previously, and without stirring up hostilities, CAN you gently step OUT of this “vacation”?  Can you take the high road, stay home, enjoy the peace, relax and work on you?

This is a choice... or IS it?

Please tell me.

Hugs,
Gems

[AskingWhy]

So based on what I wrote previously, and without stirring up hostilities, CAN you gently step OUT of this “vacation”?  Can you take the high road, stay home, enjoy the peace, relax and work on you?
Hugs,
Gems

Gems, thank you.  I have already done this!  ;)

Disordered people don't "get it."  They have cognitive distortions.  I saw right through this "vacation."  It was an excuse to see his D for two weeks.   It's like a child offering to grab a loaf of bread across the aisles in a store so he can walk by the candy display with the hopes of getting a parent to buy some for him. It was quite transparent. 

I don't have to fly across the country only to be ignored.   It's a great feeling not having to dread being ignored for two weeks.  

[Gemsforeyes]

Brilliant! 

Wish him a lovely journey, send along a few gifts for the little ones (goodwill goes a LONG way in the minds of disordered people) and see if you can move to the place (even if not totally true yet) of telling him it’s about YOU.

Do you want to address anger?  I’m asking you this because it’s a personal issue I faced.  It crippled me for awhile there... kind of blinding actually.  Sort of a whole body “sport”.  And it was pretty recent.  What do you think?  Could help...

[AskingWhy]

Gems, H just dysregulated and left the house.  Jekyll and Hyde for sure. 

[Cat Familiar]

How are you doing, AW? At least he's dysregulating away from home and is not smashing things.

[AskingWhy]

How are you doing, AW? At least he's dysregulating away from home and is not smashing things.

As you saw in my other thread, H is dysregulating at home now.