S6 will not visit his mother this summer

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Quick background for those not familiar with my story:  uBPDstbxw and I have been separated since January 2018.  She moved to another state, 7 hours away, to be with family (who she has now alienated).  S6 lives primarily with me.

uBPDstbxw is unemployed and on parole for battery of a former roommate.  She canceled 2 out of the last 3 planned visits with S6, and overslept the last day of the most recent visit (leaving him to just watch TV alone) and he ended up missing his best friend's birthday party.  During the spring, I made the decision, with my L's approval, to keep S6 for his entire summer break.

She sold most of her possessions, including her car, and begged others for money to survive.  She eventually got on food stamps a month or so ago.  She had to leave her apartment because she could no longer pay rent, and is now staying with a family she met online.  Her L dropped her because she wasn't doing what she was being asked to do and she is now pro se.

As things appeared to be improving somewhat, I eventually agreed to drive him down there for the first week of July.  She of course lobbied for the entire month.

Then this past Monday morning, I got a phone call from her asking if S6 was with me.  She woke up disoriented, not sure of where she was, and not remembering much of what had happened to her for several weeks.  She was afraid that S6 was with her and was worried about caring for him in this state.

Of course, this was very concerning, and I later told her that I was having second thoughts about the upcoming visitation.  After consulting my L and my pastor, I ultimately decided to cancel the visitation completely.

Of course, she's livid with me and S6 is sad.  (I'm sad too -- this was a very difficult decision!)  uBPDstbxw told S6 while video chatting with him that I hate her and I did this to punish her...

I'm trying to keep as LC as I can.  I've been getting a stream of angry texts the last couple days, but haven't responded.  I just screenshot them all and send off to my L to add to the mountain of evidence of her unhinged behavior.

I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing for S6, but it's very hard!

[prof]

Quick background for those not familiar with my story:  uBPDstbxw and I have been separated since January 2018.  She moved to another state, 7 hours away, to be with family (who she has now alienated).  S6 lives primarily with me.

uBPDstbxw is unemployed and on parole for battery of a former roommate.  She canceled 2 out of the last 3 planned visits with S6, and overslept the last day of the most recent visit (leaving him to just watch TV alone) and he ended up missing his best friend's birthday party.  During the spring, I made the decision, with my L's approval, to keep S6 for his entire summer break.

She sold most of her possessions, including her car, and begged others for money to survive.  She eventually got on food stamps a month or so ago.  She had to leave her apartment because she could no longer pay rent, and is now staying with a family she met online.  Her L dropped her because she wasn't doing what she was being asked to do and she is now pro se.

As things appeared to be improving somewhat, I eventually agreed to drive him down there for the first week of July.  She of course lobbied for the entire month.

Then this past Monday morning, I got a phone call from her asking if S6 was with me.  She woke up disoriented, not sure of where she was, and not remembering much of what had happened to her for several weeks.  She was afraid that S6 was with her and was worried about caring for him in this state.

Of course, this was very concerning, and I later told her that I was having second thoughts about the upcoming visitation.  After consulting my L and my pastor, I ultimately decided to cancel the visitation completely.

Of course, she's livid with me and S6 is sad.  (I'm sad too -- this was a very difficult decision!)  uBPDstbxw told S6 while video chatting with him that I hate her and I did this to punish her...

I'm trying to keep as LC as I can.  I've been getting a stream of angry texts the last couple days, but haven't responded.  I just screenshot them all and send off to my L to add to the mountain of evidence of her unhinged behavior.

I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing for S6, but it's very hard!

[ForeverDad]

For her to be that disoriented, makes me wonder why, does she have a history of drug abuse or dependencies?  You did the right thing.  Sounds like she'll need to be limited to supervised visits, possibly a few hours at a time if that happens.  And drug testing beforehand.

[prof]

For her to be that disoriented, makes me wonder why, does she have a history of drug abuse or dependencies? 

Oh yeah.  About 10 years before we started dating, she was living on the streets as a heavy drug user, primarily meth.  She eventually cleaned up and went back to school.  The ability to turn her life around like that is one of the big things that I admired about her.

She also had prescriptions for various opiates throughout most of our relationship, and I sat in a number of appointments where doctors were shocked at how large the doses were.

A few months ago she was asking a bunch of people for money.  One of them was an old friend that had known her back when she was using drugs.  The friend reached out to me expressing concern that she was using again.

uBPDstbxw vehemently denies this of course.  I've never point-blank asked her if she's using, but several times she's been the one to bring up the topic.  "Drugs are too expensive!" she argues.

She also claims to have been unable to take advantage of various opportunities for free/cheap housing and medical care that she looked into, as they were only available to people currently abusing drugs.

She does have a diagnosed auto-immune disease, and has expressed concern that it is beginning to affect her brain.  I'm not aware of any doctors backing this up, however.

You did the right thing.  Sounds like she'll need to be limited to supervised visits, possibly a few hours at a time if that happens.  And drug testing beforehand.

Does anyone have any experience with supervised visits when the parents are separated by a significant distance?  If she was local, then it would be much easier.  I recall my L even talking a little bit about the logistics of them during my first appointment with him, back before she moved out of state.

[worriedStepmom]

I was thinking about you yesterday and wondered how you were handling the summer.

I think you are doing absolutely the right thing for your son. 

I would definitely move to supervised visitation, and if that means she has to find the money to travel to your state, so be it.  At this point I would not be bending over backwards to help her.  She has dug herself into a hole and she has to get herself out.

When will the divorce be final?

[kells76]

I would definitely move to supervised visitation, and if that means she has to find the money to travel to your state, so be it.  At this point I would not be bending over backwards to help her

It's kind of interesting; I was thinking of suggesting finding a SV location near Mom.

Either way you slice it though -- whether the SV is in your town or hers -- I wonder if she would have an equal level of difficulty making it work. It might make no difference.

Can you pitch to your L "Hey, is there any benefit to me "going the extra mile" to have SV be in Mom's town? Or at this point would anyone ding me if I set it up in Homeville and let her know?"

[prof]

When will the divorce be final?

Supposedly, early August.  Her actions have kept pushing things back.  My L met with the judge a week or so ago and supposedly the judge is hoping to get it over with soon.  We'll see!

[livednlearned]

My son believed if he did x or y or z, he could make his dad better. He could make his dad be a good dad.

And my son would then be worthy of love.

He wasn't able to articulate this, but that's essentially what he believed.

It really really messed him up.

With the help of a T, he got to the point where he realized his dad could not be fixed, and that was the healthier option of two difficult paths.

Better to help your son realize that it's his mom who has to prove she is worthy of being a parent.

I would put the responsibility on her to drive 7 hours for supervised visits in your state.

I know it's a process and it might be too soon (if it happens at all) -- guilt and obligation are powerful.

[formflier]

I wonder about "supervised contact".

Should you be recording the video chats she has? 

How often does she make the kind of remarks like she did about you hating her and doing things because you hate her?

It's good you heard it and you are aware, what are you going to do with that information?

Solid work pulling the plug on visitation.  I'm firmly in the camp with those that say let her travel for SV in your state. 

Continue to focus on wellness of your child first...her wants and needs well after that. 

Keep up the good work!

Best,

FF

[prof]

How often does she make the kind of remarks like she did about you hating her and doing things because you hate her?

It's good you heard it and you are aware, what are you going to do with that information?

These comments during video chats have been pretty frequent since I canceled this visitation.

The big thing I'm wondering is what I say when S6 confronts me about this.  "Why did you lie to Mommy?" etc.

[formflier]

These comments during video chats have been pretty frequent since I canceled this visitation.

The big thing I'm wondering is what I say when S6 confronts me about this.  "Why did you lie to Mommy?" etc.

I would think this is doing a lot of damage.  Can you video the video chats? 

Prof..it's obvious you want to support a relationship between your son and his mom.  However...allowing these video chats to continue is arguably "enabling" her to poison the relationship.

If you have several conversations of video proof...I can't imagine a reasonable court or therapist would ever push back on you limiting the conversations or having them "monitored" by a professional.

Said another way..her communications needs to be supervised.

FF

[worriedStepmom]

The big thing I'm wondering is what I say when S6 confronts me about this.  "Why did you lie to Mommy?" etc.

You validate.  A lot.

My SD was 5 when I married H.  For two years, every time we were alone, she'd say "Mommy said " followed by whatever awful thing her mom had said about me or H lately.  I'd always ask "What do you think about that?"  Sometimes she'd talk it through herself.  Often, she'd say "I don't know."  I'd ask if she wanted my opinion, and if she said yes, I'd cautiously state what actually happened.  I never called her mom a liar - our code phrase was "it sounds like mommy might be confused."  After two years, SD suddenly stopped doing this; I think she had figured out that my narrative was way more reliable than her mom's.

Your son will figure out the same thing.

SD is 12 now, and we're still struggling with what kinds of limits to place on communication when SD is with us, because her mom still tries that kind of poisoning.  It isn't healthy for a child to hear all of that, and, if your court order doesn't specify phone calls, then it might be a good idea to further limit her time. 

[livednlearned]

The big thing I'm wondering is what I say when S6 confronts me about this.  "Why did you lie to Mommy?" etc.

What have you been saying?

My T and son's T both had me focus on the anguish felt when a child is triangulated into marital (or divorce) discord.

So I would try to say some version of, "Ooof. Daddy said that? How'd you feel when he said that?"

My son's go-to expression for emotions was pretty limited back then, so he would either respond with sad or mad. The T's helped me focus on helping him expand his feelings so he had language. Things like this can really help: https://ibb.co/bF8DkVJ

The goal is to tap into the feelings in the comments rather than the comments themselves, except as a vessel for the emotions.

[prof]

You validate.  A lot.

My SD was 5 when I married H.  For two years, every time we were alone, she'd say "Mommy said " followed by whatever awful thing her mom had said about me or H lately.  I'd always ask "What do you think about that?"  Sometimes she'd talk it through herself.  Often, she'd say "I don't know."  I'd ask if she wanted my opinion, and if she said yes, I'd cautiously state what actually happened.  I never called her mom a liar - our code phrase was "it sounds like mommy might be confused."  After two years, SD suddenly stopped doing this; I think she had figured out that my narrative was way more reliable than her mom's.

Your son will figure out the same thing.

SD is 12 now, and we're still struggling with what kinds of limits to place on communication when SD is with us, because her mom still tries that kind of poisoning.  It isn't healthy for a child to hear all of that, and, if your court order doesn't specify phone calls, then it might be a good idea to further limit her time. 

What have you been saying?

My T and son's T both had me focus on the anguish felt when a child is triangulated into marital (or divorce) discord.

So I would try to say some version of, "Ooof. Daddy said that? How'd you feel when he said that?"

My son's go-to expression for emotions was pretty limited back then, so he would either respond with sad or mad. The T's helped me focus on helping him expand his feelings so he had language. Things like this can really help: https://ibb.co/bF8DkVJ

The goal is to tap into the feelings in the comments rather than the comments themselves, except as a vessel for the emotions.

Great stuff -- thank you so much!

S6 and I just got back from a Cub Scout camping trip for the last few days.  uBPDstbxw was freaking out that I had fled with him or something and he was in some kind of danger.  She was saying some pretty nasty stuff about me during video chats today.  (Implying that I ignore him and abuse him, that I hate her, that I'm a liar, etc.) 

He hasn't confronted me about anything yet, but now I definitely feel like I have a better idea of how to handle things.

Should I ever initiate these conversations, or let him bring them up?

[worriedStepmom]

This is tough, because of his age.

I think I might bring it up - "S6, I heard some of what mom said.  How did that make you feel? / What do you think about that?"

If she continues to be abusive in this way, can you further limit her phone calls?

[GaGrl]

I agree -- he might not being it up himsrlf, which might mean he is internalizing some negative stuff that feels contradictory to him. You can gently bring it up with him and validate.

As to your STBX, you can be very blunt here. I think it's time to tell her that neither parent will disparage the other to or in front of your son, that you are having this clause included in the divorce agreement, and if you hear of become aware of disparaging comments to your son, she will lose video/phone privileges or have all those interactions monitored.

[flourdust]

I don't know if this has been recommended to you before, but Bill Eddy has an excellent follow-up book to Splitting called Don't Alienate the Kids! It has a lot of really solid advice for parenting in this kind of adversarial setting.

[formflier]

Yes..initiate.  But be vague at first.  Find out about his feelings first...

FF

[prof]

Yesterday there was a particularly nasty video chat where uBPDstbxw asked S6 to go to another room while they talked.  I could hear them clearly from the next room and took notes, which I've forwarded to my L.

In the conversation, she told him that I'm a bad man and asked if I had made him lie about Cub Scout camp.

Afterwards, I asked S6 how he felt when he was talking to his mom.  He said a little sad, but told me that he was on her side and that I'm a liar.  Not what I was hoping he'd say ...

However, his behavior to me seems normal.  Cuddly, telling me he loves me, etc.

[formflier]

Do you have a family therapist to advise you on how to proceed? 

I can't imagine allowing this to continue is helpful to his development. 

Perhaps a letter written by your lawyer to her.  "you may continue supervised video chats with your son and be silent about xyz matters or these contacts will be suspended until such time as an appropriate professional can monitor them."

Something like that.

So sorry you have to deal with this.

FF

[ForeverDad]

Validation vs Invalidation — those are things we have to learn to identify and choose an appropriate approach.  For example, we may be inclined to say "...but mommy loves you".  That sends mixed messages and would invalidate other things we say.  So stay away from defending or justifying ex's actions.  Our natural Nice Guy or Nice Gal inclination is to smooth things over but that too easily can lead us into invalidation.

[worriedStepmom]

My H just blocked his ex from calling SD12 without supervision because she was making the same types of comments to their doctor.  H's lawyer thinks we have a very good chance of getting supervised visitation for ex because she cannot stop herself from making these kinds of comments.

I'd recommend either doing that (supervised phone calls and cutting her off when she's misbehaving) or getting a therapist for your son, or both.