Confrontation with grandparents over custody

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm concerned that my uBPD ex-wife's parents are beginning to over-reach in terms of keeping my 3YO daughter for overnights. I'm waiting for my attorney's response as to what recourse I have, but I'm curious whether anyone's run into this situation before.

XWife and I have a loose timesharing agreement and are working on finalizing a 50/50 deal. In the meantime — My ex went on vacation for a couple of weeks with her new boyfriend. Ex's parents asked whether they could fly with my daughter to another state for 4 days for a family reunion. I've generally gotten along with them, and I want her to have a relationship with her grandparents, so I agreed and signed a permission slip for her to fly with them.

My ex texted from her vacation today to inform me that her parents were going to stay at her house on their return, and my daughter is going to stay with them until she gets back. This runs counter to our previous plan, and falls on my agreed-upon night to have my daughter. When I tried to assert my night, my ex and her parents both accused me of being selfish and not thinking about my daughters' best interests — apparently "bouncing around" houses after getting back from their trips.

This sounds really screwed up. As legal custodian of my daughter, I should be able to assert that she stays with me. The grandparents are insisting that they don't want to get "in our business", but insist on keeping my daughter overnight on my nights and that it's best for her.

I'm not totally sure what my rights are here, but I don't want to set a precedent of giving in. Part of me wants to tell them I'll call police if necessary, but I also don't want to escalate the situation and cause my Ex to blow up the 50/50 agreement before she signs it. So I might have to be tactical in this situation, allow this for now, and then assert my rights after the custody agreement is signed.

If she doesn't sign the agreement, my lawyer says going to court would likely give me 50/50 anyway, FWIW. But I'm really frustrated with my former in-laws for meddling and keeping my daughter away from me. Isn't this kidnapping?

[Caco Canepa]

I'm concerned that my uBPD ex-wife's parents are beginning to over-reach in terms of keeping my 3YO daughter for overnights. I'm waiting for my attorney's response as to what recourse I have, but I'm curious whether anyone's run into this situation before.

XWife and I have a loose timesharing agreement and are working on finalizing a 50/50 deal. In the meantime — My ex went on vacation for a couple of weeks with her new boyfriend. Ex's parents asked whether they could fly with my daughter to another state for 4 days for a family reunion. I've generally gotten along with them, and I want her to have a relationship with her grandparents, so I agreed and signed a permission slip for her to fly with them.

My ex texted from her vacation today to inform me that her parents were going to stay at her house on their return, and my daughter is going to stay with them until she gets back. This runs counter to our previous plan, and falls on my agreed-upon night to have my daughter. When I tried to assert my night, my ex and her parents both accused me of being selfish and not thinking about my daughters' best interests — apparently "bouncing around" houses after getting back from their trips.

This sounds really screwed up. As legal custodian of my daughter, I should be able to assert that she stays with me. The grandparents are insisting that they don't want to get "in our business", but insist on keeping my daughter overnight on my nights and that it's best for her.

I'm not totally sure what my rights are here, but I don't want to set a precedent of giving in. Part of me wants to tell them I'll call police if necessary, but I also don't want to escalate the situation and cause my Ex to blow up the 50/50 agreement before she signs it. So I might have to be tactical in this situation, allow this for now, and then assert my rights after the custody agreement is signed.

If she doesn't sign the agreement, my lawyer says going to court would likely give me 50/50 anyway, FWIW. But I'm really frustrated with my former in-laws for meddling and keeping my daughter away from me. Isn't this kidnapping?

[Turkish]

My ex texted from her vacation today to inform me that her parents were going to stay at her house on their return, and my daughter is going to stay with them until she gets back.

So your exW is already violating the unwritten agreement. 

I'm not totally sure what my rights are here, but I don't want to set a precedent of giving in. Part of me wants to tell them I'll call police if necessary, but I also don't want to escalate the situation and cause my Ex to blow up the 50/50 agreement before she signs it. So I might have to be tactical in this situation, allow this for now, and then assert my rights after the custody agreement is signed.

Your rights are to have your daughter with you. That's best for your daughter.  I can sympathize with not wanting to cause waves until you have a legal stipulation, but they are the ones causing waves.

[formflier]

Do you have a copy of her birth certificate?

You are the Dad..you show up and get her.  If they refuse...you are the one with the birth certificate and authorities should give her to you.

Verify all this with your divorce attorney.

Little good comes from trying to reason with unreasonable people.

FF

[ForeverDad]

Grandparents typically have limited rights when it comes to the grandchildren, and in some states or situations virtually none.

https://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/summaries-of-state-law-grandparent-visitation-and-custody.html

The problem here is that at this early stage there are no written agreements or at least nothing filed with court.  Generally that means each parent has equal but undefined rights.  If police get involved then a parent vs grandparent issue would have the police defaulting to parent.  If between parents then the police will plead with the parents to "work it out" and resolve it in court.

If they are that desperate or determined to resist your general but previously agreed parenting schedule, would it work to have a one-time resolution (no precedent set) where your day is traded with one of ex's days?  That may avoid a legal confrontation yet set a limit on their belief they can just claim whatever time they feel is justified.

[GaGrl]

If you allow your daughter to stay with the grandparents this time (and I can understand why you would), you need to make sure both your STBX and her parents are clear you are do I g so ONLY because court orders are not finalized, that in future, visits with grandparents do not take priority over regular custody time with you, and that you are trading days, not bug by up time. Emphasize that what is best for her is regular time with her father.

[Caco Canepa]

Thank you all. This has been very useful and gives good perspective. I still have to hear from my attorney about it, but going forward, I'm going to have to enforce boundaries with the grandparents, and be more hard-nosed about my custody time.

Wondering if there's suggestions on what other sort of scenarios I should prepare for with the grandparents. I know that they intervened in another one of their kids' custody cases, pretty much stripping custody from the child's mother to give it to the father, and then essentially raising the child themselves for the most part.

The weirdness seems to come mostly from my Ex's mother, who is a bit of an overbearing "mama bear" kind. IT's a shame — i get along with the father really well. In some ways, I think my ex married her father by marrying me.

[formflier]

The sooner you set precedent that you are not ok with this..the better. 

When do you expect a call from the attorney...this should be a 5 min conversation..if that.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

When you tell someone what you want -- bring your child back -- and they switch the topic to "you are selfish" that's a sign of manipulation.

Try to keep the topic on what you're talking about, which is adhering to the original agreement.

With my ex, I sometimes had to repeat the same phrase over and over and it came across silly and strained but that's what it took. When you feel a wave of guilt or fear, try to ride it out instead of give in. Very likely, your sense of guilt tilts way toward what other people want and not what is best for you. Having good boundaries is best for your D, even better than seeing her extended family. Having good boundaries will help her learn to manage her extended family because she'll have skills to prevent them fro steam rolling over her (or become a steam roller herself).

That's for next time, anyway.

For now, you can do what FF suggests, which is to bring your daughter home. That might be tricky, legally. It's technically not kidnapping/abduction when custody has not been filed, at least in my state.

You could wait for D to come home and then next time, use the custody agreement as leverage. "I will permit D to travel out of state with you, first I need this agreement signed." It's possible that your ex will not sign it, even if you've got this far.

Also, the more your daughter spends time with the grandparents, the more they could argue for custody if you live in a state with strong grandparents rights. Same goes for time with your ex.

With my ex, I learned to treat the custody order as non-negotiable even when it inconvenienced me. I had to retrain myself to have a backbone so that my ex grew to recognize this -- people with BPD tend to test limits because boundaries are a foreign concept. So if you don't repeatedly point them out, you'll be tested constantly as your ex (and maybe grandma, too) tries to figure out where your boundaries are.

It's hard in the beginning and then it gets easier, mostly because the boundaries become the compass point, and not shifting whims, no matter how reasonable the whims may seem.

You can tell when someone is being manipulative because when you state the boundary, they rotate responses until one works. For example,

You: "No she can't stay longer than we agreed upon."

Them: "You're selfish. All you think about is you."

You: "She can't stay longer than we agreed."

Them: "She's having a good time. She wants to stay."

You: "She cannot stay. We agreed she would come home on Wednesday."

Them: "Ex says it's ok, and we think it is too."

You: "She cannot stay."

Them: "She has a tummy ache and can't travel."

I would ask your lawyer if there's any downside to doing a well-child check so that you can at least establish you did something when they didn't bring her home at the agreed upon time.

You're in a tough position because there is no agreement in place and you did give permission for her to travel with the grandparents, which shows you place trust in them.

Do you still trust them?

If you don't trust them, then this might be the last time they get permission to take her out of state.

That's what happens when people don't know what your boundaries are.

You have to show them. Not just tell them.

[formflier]

You have to show them. Not just tell them.

They are trying to establish themselves as "the force to  be dealt with, even though they are no legally in control"

Since your wife is NOT present...you are the parent in control.  Period.

Have birth certificate in hand and exert that control.  They will freak..but they will understand the action.

It's not so important that they freak or not...that's their attempt at manipulation.  What is important is that YOU enforce your agreements AND your parental rights.

Keep bugging the lawyer to get the local lay of the land...some procedures may be different.  For instance...they may advise you to go to authorities first and validate the birth certificate...explain things to police. 

Once authorities understand the situation compared to the law...there really is little nuance here.



Best,

FF

[tamismom]

All above excellent advice, but I will bring up one more point...how this may affect your daughter. Is it possible that telling the grandparents that if they don't comply you will have no choice but the come get her, with authorities in tow...and that it will be on them if she's traumatized by that action. Maybe they will give in if they are in fact putting her first? Ugh, it's an awful situation.

[Caco Canepa]

tamismom —

That's one thing that gave me pause. That's one of the awful things about BPD — they really make setting boundaries difficult by holding hostages if you try to enforce.

[Turkish]

Getting the legal order signed by a judge and filed will be a huge milestone. Focus on that goal and go from there with joint legal and physical custody. 

My ex-laws' approach to the kids in some ways has driven me nuts. I was barely allowed to touch S9 for months much when he was a baby, not allowed to bathe him,  and when he cried if i was holding him,  "what did you do?"

I'm sure my ex's diagnosed Anxiety she got from her mother (on some level, she is aware of this), but to myself I've called  to many of their suggestions and parenting styles.  The upside about being a single parent half the time is that you can relax on your time and enjoy being a parent. 

[livednlearned]

Are you worried about your daughter's well-being staying with her mom or grandparents?

[ForeverDad]

Have you read Bill Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder which is a must-read around here?  One of the points it makes is that many, even most, lawyers are not prepared for the intensity, obstructions and delays of our cases.  If your lawyer claims all his cases are resolved at mediation or settlement conferences, then this is likely not the lawyer for you.  He or she may be capable only if both parties are reasonably normal.

What most of us needed was a pro-active lawyer who had solid experience with both negotiations and hearings/trials.  While your natural personality is likely to be accommodating and peace-seeking, it's okay — often necessary — for your lawyer to be seen as a stricter sort, like a dog with a bone.  (So when you're predictably blamed with being so very unreasonable — yes, the pot calling the kettle black — then you can let the lawyer take the heat as the one who insisted it be that way, that's part of his/her job.)

[Caco Canepa]

Hi ForeverDad —

Yes, "Splitting" was very useful to me, and I was fortunate to get a good attorney. My ex actually told me I was being a jerk for getting this particular attorney and that I was trying to escalate the conflict by retaining her services. That was a sign that I was doing the right thing.

My atty has been on vacation and in trial, so I haven't heard back from her this week, unfortunately.

But she's been confident of what we could get if we went to trial — and that has been great leverage in negotiating a much better agreement than what we started out with in mediation. Right now it's been a gradual process toward getting it signed. My ex still disregulates and I don't want to derail. But i've been holding boundaries much better than ever, and I do let the lawyer be the "enforcer".

Still, I feel I made a tactical mistake in allowing the travel. The grandparents really violated my trust with this instance, and I'm not going to bend on my days, going forward, even if they frame it as "doing us a favor." 

You're right, formflier and livednlearned — they're manipulating. Thank you for the reminder to just repeat. It's been effective in the past, and I need to be insistent.

[Caco Canepa]

You can tell when someone is being manipulative because when you state the boundary, they rotate responses until one works. For example,

You: "No she can't stay longer than we agreed upon."

Them: "You're selfish. All you think about is you."

You: "She can't stay longer than we agreed."

Them: "She's having a good time. She wants to stay."

You: "She cannot stay. We agreed she would come home on Wednesday."

Them: "Ex says it's ok, and we think it is too."

You: "She cannot stay."

Them: "She has a tummy ache and can't travel."

OMG. Did you have access to our conversation?

I do worry about MIL's possible influence/impact on my D. For that matter, I think my ex is probably not the best influence either. I can't prove that she's doing anything bad to her, but she certainly didn't hesitate to call me the worst of names and be intimidating and abusive to me in front of D when we were living together.

If I were to sue for primary custody, I'm afraid it would unleash a scorched-earth campaign that would be very destructive for my D and could backfire badly.

[formflier]

What if you went over to pick her up for a "lunch date" with Daddy? 

How long has it been since you guys have been together?

It could turn out to be a long lunch date...

FF

[livednlearned]

OMG. Did you have access to our conversation?

 

No.

There is a book called In Sheep's Clothing (I think) that breaks down the structure of covert aggression (manipulation) and how it works so you can better spot it.

It has helped me communicate so much better. Manipulation is not a BPD trait, it simply happens more with BPD because the needs are more extreme. 

You may want to also check out Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, especially as your daughter gets older. You will likely be trying to thwart both your ex and MIL, and the two together will do a number on D3.

[Caco Canepa]

Sheep's clothing — Just ordered it! Thanks for that bit of insight.

There's so many times in my life that I feel I've been subject to manipulation — and it's something so weird and subtle. Even in work situations. If you try to call it out, it winds up backfiring, at least for me. Maybe I just haven't had the right scripts or tools to do that with.

[livednlearned]

I don't think we can call it out directly because people who manipulate as a matter of course are doing it precisely because direct communication is threatening. Pointing it out directly triggers panic mode and all the defenses that go with that (including more manipulation).

I heard in an interview this funny concept that we are descendants of a lying species, that lying is a helpful tool for survival, especially lying to ourselves -- which helps us be more believable because humans are quite sensitive to nuances. It's why we prefer gifted actors over ones that aren't as good. We prefer for the lie to be seamless.

I think that might apply to people who manipulate to get their needs met. They aren't doing anything that unusual, it's mostly the degree to which they do it. Once you learn to identify when it's happening and what to do, and experience some degree of success, manipulation is less stressful and exasperating.

Be prepared though that thwarting one manipulation doesn't put an end to it. If anything, things can increase in intensity as the other person tries to find a new way to get needs met.

If covert aggression ceases to work, they may try for victim mode. I find it physically painful to not respond to a call for help from SD22. I have to remind myself that I'm changing a pattern of behavior and stopping to rescue, fix, or save just keeps us stuck in the same exhausting cycle.

I try to concentrate on being someone who does not respond to manipulation. Everything else must come second.

In this sense, this dynamic is about you, not them.

[formflier]

I don't think we can call it out directly because people who manipulate as a matter of course are doing it precisely because direct communication is threatening. Pointing it out directly triggers panic mode and all the defenses that go with that (including more manipulation).
 

If you are not prepared to "go to the mat"..don't call them out.  Them "winning" will "feed the monster".

Them being fearful and "loosing" (you driving away with your daughter) will teach them something..establish respect.

What's going on with the call to the L?

How long since you have spent time with your daughter?

Best,

FF

[Caco Canepa]

Formflier —

I had her friday evening and I have her again today and tomorrow, and then this weekend. I'm kayaking the Grand Canyon for three weeks after that and have her immediately. XW is finally agreeing to 50/50 and is planning to start that schedule after my return. The lawyers are dragging their feet in getting back to us — this is probably a busy season for them.

XW has calmed down considerably this week. I think because her mother went back to her hometown.

[ForeverDad]

While we rightly ought to be reluctant to categorize people, the maternal grandmother keeps getting mention as the person more concerning than even your spouse.  She somehow influences your spouse to be less cooperative and less sharing of parenting.  Do you perceive her as being Borderline (controlling) more so than her daughter?

Likely the more you can keep grandmother out of your family's affairs, the better (or less bad) things will be.

[formflier]

Formflier —

I had her friday evening and I have her again today and tomorrow, and then this weekend. I'm kayaking the Grand Canyon for three weeks after that and have her immediately. XW is finally agreeing to 50/50 and is planning to start that schedule after my return. The lawyers are dragging their feet in getting back to us — this is probably a busy season for them.

XW has calmed down considerably this week. I think because her mother went back to her hometown.

OK..so she is spending the night with you?  Who has been setting this schedule? Perhaps I didn't understand the situation correctly that "they had her".

Best,

FF