Tinder trouble with uBPDw Part 2

[guitarguy09]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion. Part 1 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338266.0




SH -

I don't think she gets a rush by me checking up on her, I think it probably bugs me that I don't "trust" her (but I don't think I really can). As for me, it's sort of fun to snoop and play detective because it beats the dull every day stuff but I wish I didn't feel I had to do it ultimately. I wish I could just be enough for her.

Oddly enough, her drinking which at times was 3-4 drinks a night has decreased which is good, but I don't want that at the expense of the other.

[Still Here]

I hear you on the drinking. It’s a tough trade off.

[Enabler]

There's a Christian book (it's applicable regardless) called 'Love Must Be Tough'. It's a good read and tackles your very dilemma. It was recommended to me by another member (Formflier).

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BmwWtd5jc4oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=love+must+be+tough&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPhPq7383jAhUEi1wKHR_3DTcQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=love%20must%20be%20tough&f=false

[guitarguy09]

SH -

Yeah that's for sure.

Enabler -

Thank you for the book recommendation. We are Christians actually, and I know she liked the Dobson book Bringing Up Boys so that is good. Is this recommended for reading together or for just me?

[Enabler]

Definitely just you on your own and I would recommend you don't tell her you are reading it. Dobson makes that very clear.

It's very very very challenging to see someone act in such an immoral way yet claim to be a Christian. I know from personal experience how it feels "cannot compute". Does she have a church mask?

Enabler

[guitarguy09]

Definitely just you on your own and I would recommend you don't tell her you are reading it. Dobson makes that very clear.

It's very very very challenging to see someone act in such an immoral way yet claim to be a Christian. I know from personal experience how it feels "cannot compute". Does she have a church mask?

Enabler

Yes it definitely feels like a big contradiction. She calls herself a bad Christian all the time yet I don't see her taking steps to get closer to God and of course this behavior is just plain wrong. I've felt a lot of guilt over the years, kind of feeling like I'm living a lie because though we put on a good face at church I feel a lot of emotional pain knowing that the other women at church actually care about their relationship with God and about maintaining healthy relationships over being competitive and catty, etc. I see some wives there that I feel jealous of other guys having that most likely don't have the same degree of problems. My wife went to a bible study there for a while but when they got into topics she didn't quite agree with she stopped going on Wednesday nights.

Last night I was at a bible study for men and looked around the room and thought "I bet no one else's wife is doing the same to them". She puts on a church face but several people know she doesn't go to bible study and she learned her lesson from the last church we were at, to not get too confrontive. We were more or less told we needed to have a serious talk with leadership or leave, and we left that church.

[Enabler]

I've written a few pieces on here about why I think spirituality and BPD tend to find each other. Certainly in the case of a person who acts out in the way it seems your W does, the idea of unquestioning forgiveness is probably quite appealing. In many respects the idea of unquestioned redemption might be something of a salve for her since I'd imagine up to that point she possibly felt pretty bad about her behaviour(s), past and present. What's better than a clean moral slate every day? Does it matter if she sins anymore since there are no after life consequences anymore. Also, spirituality might make a lot of sense out of things like dissociation, where without the existence of God you're having an out of body experience which feels weird vs with God, you're having a spiritual experience which could be empowering.

I can certainly understand your frustrations seeing happy couples in Church, no doubt especially the after service coffee's where you and your W are all smiles and maybe she holds your hand or puts her arm around you... then as soon as you get in the car the daggers come out or she starts txt'ing one of 'friends'. I certainly think "how can you have just listened to the same sermon as me yet do this not 10 minutes after walking out of the Church doors?"

Enabler 

[guitarguy09]

That is a very interesting point. It does make sense that they would need/want that unquestioned forgiveness. She grew up in the church and we met each other at a Christian college.

I really liked the point you made about how we can be all smiles in church and she does hold my hand or I put my arm around her, but I know as soon as we get in the car, or we get home, she talks bad about someone at church, or gets negative about life stuff, or gets annoyed at the kids etc. It just feels like a ruse sometimes but I know a lot of members on here deal with worse.

And the texting of her "friends" is especially hurtful considering we have a really good Pastor who gives meaningful, applicable sermons and my w even likes Christian movies. Strange contradiction but she enjoys some Christian music a lot as well. She's even done meet and greets with bands but I'm sure they would be like "why don't you listen to the lyrics?"

[guitarguy09]

I was just thinking, she likes the Christian movies and music because they give her comfort when her life feels out of control (which is quite a bit).

[Enabler]

Very much the same for me. My W pretty much exclusively listens to Christian music such as Bethel Church etc. She also reads a lot of Christian literature.

Since the borderline sees his or her actions as always a response to the world, and having read some of my wife’s personal notes, I get the sense that she somehow expects god to intervene to ‘make her do good’, or stop allowing her to do bad things. She even sees her affair partner as sent from god, almost god personified to be truthful. You see she didn’t choose to have an affair, I made her right? Yeah? Well that’s how she sees it. So if god can just stop me from making her sin, she’d be good... I am responsible for all of her choices, all of her actions and all of her inactions. She prays for me a lot.

Enabler

[guitarguy09]

Very sorry to hear about the affair. That must be very hard. Sounds like quite a lot of justification. I believe my w justifies her behavior internally as "he doesn't want me enough, he doesn't always make me feel great, he's got a 'dad bod' instead of being fit like these other guys I chat with and spend hours at the gym" so she can use that to justify the online activity. To a pwBPD I feel like it's all about the way things make them feel. I've never seen such justification for behavior before.

With the really crappy stuff we went through with my family a couple years ago, she treated my sisters like crap because they didn't treat her in the exact right way, message her enough, like enough of her facebook statuses etc. So she felt they were treating her bad so why not treat them the same perceived way?

To her, it's God's fault for not giving me a better job so she has to be stressed about money and act out in other ways. And part of that is having to stay in our house next to a neighbor she hates but that is another story. I wonder what her excuse will be when I eventually land a better job?

[Enabler]

That you work too hard and aren’t around very much.

It’s funny though, the more you’re able to deal with the idea of them leaving and being totally cool with that, the less likely they seem to want to go. Almost like the very fact that you aren’t going anywhere means they have cart blanche over how they feel about you. Saying “no I will not tolerate that and I will do everything in my power to cut that out of my life” is pretty powerful and ultimately means there are consequences.

I’m not advocating a divorce and as a Christian I’m pro working things out rather than getting a divorce, BUT, there is a lot to be said for getting comfortable with that happening and all the various outcomes such that it’s no longer a fear. I no longer fear divorce, in many respects I believe my life will be more fulfilling, it’s likely to happen and we’re part way through the process, but I see a wealth of opportunity now rather than a huge abyss of shame and pain.

Enabler   

[guitarguy09]

Yeah that's probably what it would be.

That is a good idea. The further down the road I have gotten with her, even before this whole Tinder mess, the more I am comfortable with the idea of divorce. She's always saying she deserves to be happy but it's funny she's not willing to do the things it would take (counseling). I deserve to be happy as well and if things continue as is, I think it will be inevitable. But just feeling more comfortable with the idea helps a good deal, I agree.

[Enabler]

In what way do you think it's inevitable? Will you instigate a divorce? If not, what do you think would get her to a point where her current behaviour would result in her calling for a D?

[guitarguy09]

For me, I can see that there's no making her happy long term, that she's always chasing happiness but she is just simply not content with how things are in her life. Having the kids at home helps ground us and keeps her at home, but I could see as soon as they were grown or went off to college/moved out of the house, she would quickly get bored with just me, find a job and leave to pursue some other happiness. What's funny is she has told me many times "why don't you just divorce me" or "that's it, I'm going to file for a divorce" when she's really mad at me. That has been consistent over the years, usually a handful of times per year she'll say that when she's in an argumentative mood. But at the same time, I don't know if she would have the guts to go through with it considering most of her family and my family is on my side. They know her thought patterns and behaviors.

[Cat Familiar]

She uses divorce as an empty threat, knowing that her family wouldn’t support her in doing that, so it’s unlikely that she’d follow through.

But you might want to divorce when you have the financial means to do so?

[Enabler]

I certainly don’t see it as inevitable unless she finds another nice safe and secure (in her mind) lily pad to jump straight to. This is referred to as “the replacement”.

Is there anything that makes her ‘pull’ towards you? Do you find that when she feels like you distance yourself she’s more inclined to pull you closer? Some members have found this to be the case. They’ve become so apt at the slight push away (to achieve the pull towards) that they’ve almost considered it manipulative.

Enabler

[guitarguy09]

Cat -

If we were financially able to do so, it would be a consideration. I guess I should not say it's inevitable. Ideally I would like to keep the marriage together and make it work. I agree on that as an empty threat. She has no job at the moment and would have a hard time making ends meet on her own. The one guy she went out to lunch with a couple months ago I think she saw as a "replacement" but luckily he had the good sense to tell her to stick with me and he has recently become a Christian so wants to be good in his life. I am frightened to think of what would have happened if he just wanted to take advantage of her that day. He had a crush on her when they were in school and he let her know, and I think she was very flattered. And he has some of the signs of success (more money, better job, nice house and car) and she thinks the grass is greener on the other side.

Do you know what the funny thing was about that lunch they had, she told me about it the next day and she told her mom and stepdad about it and asked "what should I do about this". They told her it was unacceptable and should never happen again. And they have so much as told me that they and my father-in-law would not support her in any way if she were to do something like that.

Would I ask for a D? I have a feeling she would before I would. If I did, she would probably start a circle of blame going all around my family. But I could easily see her asking for one.

Enabler -

I guess you're right, I don't see it as inevitable, just see it as more of a possibility than before. Things can be worked out. Just as long as there's no "safe" area to land for her. But for her to lose her mom in her life would be devastating and I don't know if she could forgive her if she left us.

[guitarguy09]

I had not considered the push away. Sometimes when she gets jealous of other women she wants to pull me closer though lately it has been more just getting mad at me even when I'm not doing anything inappropriate. Like one woman at church who she thinks is good looking, I told her there's nothing to worry about and she asks me every so often. Even though this person is newly married and pregnant.

[formflier]

Hey Guitarguy09

I too am a Christian that has struggled with this whole "BPD thing", especially as it relates to the church and my/our relationship with God.

I would encourage you to google bpdfamily and "push pull"

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=99725.0

You will likely find lots of threads you can read through to find many different points of view on this issue.

Hopefully you can find a way to interpret and act on that information which will "calm" or "center" your relationship.

Here is what I do.

When my wife gives me a "push" or a "pull" I am deliberate to place myself "in between where she is and zero.  I imagine a 0-10 scale...and if she is giving me a 6...I give her a 3 in the same direction.

So.."I hate you..you hate my mother and you didn't  feed the pink unicorn...I never want to see you again."

FF says "Taking time apart is wise."

Do you see how I "agree" that the "general direction" (push) is where we need to go, but I'm "not at the same level"

What you don't want to do..."get away from me I hate you"...FF "oh baby you are the best...let's stay together forever."  (this just pushes her further away)

Switching gears:  I've wondered exactly the same thing at men's Bible studies. 

Generally Christian principles about reconciliation and conflict resolution seemed written for "reasonable people" or "not dysregulated" people. 

I've experienced much frustration trying to make them fit and when I've "walked away from God" (according to my wife)..our relationship is much MUCH calmer.

Involving God in a drama triangle is not something for YOU to participate in, even if your pwBPD regularly does it.

Sadly...less God correlates to a better/calmer marriage for me. 

Best,

FF

[guitarguy09]

Thank you for your post. This helps me understand the behavior more and can definitely help in times of conflict!