Final divorce hearing is soon -- what to discuss with my L?

[prof]

I have a meeting with my L on Friday, and the final hearing is scheduled for next Thursday.

It's highly unlikely uBPDstbxw will be present.  Her last L fired her a month or two ago for not doing the things she had asked her to do (surprise surprise), so she's pro se.  She's been claiming to S6 during video chats that she'll have a new L in a "few weeks", but that will likely be too late.  The court notified her of the hearing, but my L and I have not.  She also lives 6.5 hours away and sold her car a few months ago.

I've made a list of things to discuss with my L on Friday, and I wanted to run it by everyone here for input.

• Retirement.  This is pretty much our only asset.  We already disbursed a decent chunk of it to her this past winter, and I want to make sure that that's taken into account when splitting it up.
• Credit card debt.  This is substantial.  I'd love if we're just responsible for what's in our names, as most of it is in hers, but realistically I'd expect a 50/50 split, or maybe even more in my name since I'm in a significantly better financial position.
   I've been paying minimum payments on her bills throughout the separation, but she continues to spend on most of them, so it's like throwing away money.  I don't want to continue doing this after the divorce obviously.  If I end up being responsible for some of the debt in her name, then would it be a good idea to just get a personal loan and pay it off?
• Alimony.  How much will it be, and how long will it last?  Will it stop if she remarries or cohabitates?  How would I send it to her?
• Child support.  I have primary custody, so will she owe me?  (She hasn't paid me a dime so far, but hasn't been ordered to either.)  Could I just deduct this from alimony?  What about when he's visiting her -- would I have to pay her something?
• Visitations.  Will there be a fixed schedule?  What if she's unable to meet halfway?  Will there be some way of assessing whether she is fit to take care of him?
• Video chats.  Will these be on a fixed schedule?  What should I do if she says toxic things about me?
• What to do if something were to happen to me?  If she's not fit to take care of him, then perhaps he should instead live with someone in my family.

Any thoughts?

[worriedStepmom]

I'm glad you are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel!

I really hope you ask for supervised visitation to take place in your hometown.  If your L thinks you can't do that, sometimes you can do a kind of "step-up visitation", where she starts out really limited and, as she meets certain criteria, can get more time.  My sister did this with her ex - he had to go to X number of therapy sessions before he could have more than supervised, and then he started with a few hours at a time.  He didn't move up to overnights until he'd consistently shown for X% of visits.  Given that your ex is likely going to find it hard to stay on task to actually come see your son, this gives you a lot of flexibility.

In my jurisdiction, child support is paid to the parent who has the kid more than 50% of the time.  It's the same amount monthly, so it doesn't matter if the child is visiting the other parent.  They still pay you that month.  My H waived child support when he got custody of his daughter.

I'm curious as to whether the custody decree could specify what happens to your son if you die.   (I'm listed as executor in the will of a custodial parent who earmarked money to pay off the ex so that her designated choice can get custody of their child; ex would retain visitation.  In that situation, this is the easiest way to make sure the child would be properly taken care of.)

If you end up responsible for any of the credit card debt in her name, then it needs to be on an account she can't continue to run up.  That might mean paying it off with a personal loan or forcing her to close the accounts.  (They can be closed with a balance - so you owe them, but no one can add to the balance.)

[ForeverDad]

Don't be surprised if a new attorney shows up and tries to get the case continued to another day.  My lawyer had estimated 7-9 months for divorce, it was nearly two years, delays and continuances were a major factor in my case and many others described here.

Child support and alimony are two separate things.  I doubt you can deduct one from the other without some level of court order declaration.  Court may want her work history to be able to figure out some of the financials aspects.  Even if she's uncooperative with providing her documentation you ought to be able to get her assessed at a full time minimum wage job level, at a minimum.

Starting this year in the USA, alimony is the payer's tax liability, remember to factor that into your financial plans.  Since the receiver usually pays less in income taxes, the govt was getting less in years past, I'm sure that changed so the govt now gets as much money as it can.

Often the court will ask one of the lawyers to write up a proposed decree and submit it to the court.  If she does find a lawyer, make sure YOUR lawyer writes up the final decree - and you carefully review - for submission to the court.  If her lawyer does it then you can be sure every mistake will be in her favor.

[MeandThee29]

Often the court will ask one of the lawyers to write up a proposed decree and submit it to the court.  If she does find a lawyer, make sure YOUR lawyer writes up the final decree - and you carefully review - for submission to the court.  If her lawyer does it then you can be sure every mistake will be in her favor.

It's expensive to do the proposed document before court, but it may be well worth it. They have standard sections and language and just need to know your preferences. Especially given that she may or may not have representation, this provides a clear agenda and saves money/time. I've been told that judges much prefer working off of something that reflects at least one of the parties versus coming in without too many specifics from both sides.

[prof]

Don't be surprised if a new attorney shows up and tries to get the case continued to another day.  My lawyer had estimated 7-9 months for divorce, it was nearly two years, delays and continuances were a major factor in my case and many others described here.

Oh yeah, this has already been the case.  My L originally estimated 4 months.  Then uBPDstbxw requested a court-ordered GAL, which pushed it back.  (Last I heard, she still hadn't paid her share of the GAL's fee and hadn't completed the things the GAL had requested she complete -- and she's the one that requested him!) Then she finally hired an L, which pushed it back even further.  It's been 1.5 years now.

The good news is that the judge thinks it's gone on too long, so I doubt he'll be too keen on extending it any further.  He already refused to extend the original 12-month custody order after it expired in January.

[GaGrl]

Most of the questions you post are very state-specific --I 18th I you need to rely on your lawyer.

[formflier]

I would put the the "demand" column very specific consequences for your ex not meeting halfway and for saying bad things in a video chat.

The consequence needs to be in the order for anything you "care" about.

Hopefully any child support would be more than any alimony so she owes you when you "net" it out.

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

Prof - you SHOULD be able to get the judge to agree to take one spouse off the other's CC's especially if you can show that spending is out of control.

In my own case (I'm in TX), that was done at the first hearing.  judge signed order that she take me off her CC, and I take her off mine.

unfortunately she had already gone out and charged a $2300 couch, but I ate that cost b/c fighting over it wasn't worth as much as stopping the bleeding. 

[prof]

Most of the questions you post are very state-specific --I 18th I you need to rely on your lawyer.

Oh definitely!  My goal was mostly to get the list of questions for my L vetted by the community prior to the appointment.

I would put the the "demand" column very specific consequences for your ex not meeting halfway and for saying bad things in a video chat.

The consequence needs to be in the order for anything you "care" about.

Great stuff -- thanks!

Prof - you SHOULD be able to get the judge to agree to take one spouse off the other's CC's especially if you can show that spending is out of control.

Fortunately, we've already taken each other off our cards.  The status quo is that I have login information for her accounts and use that to figure out how much the minimum payments are each month.  Occasionally (like 5 minutes ago ) I need her help to reset a password or something if I lose access.

I'd rather any debt which I end up being responsible for post-divorce to be in my name so I'm not having to deal with her at all, either for password resets or her running up balances right after I pay them down.

[MeandThee29]

unfortunately she had already gone out and charged a $2300 couch, but I ate that cost b/c fighting over it wasn't worth as much as stopping the bleeding. 

LOL.

My lawyer recently quizzed me about major purchases. I was like -- what? My income is low, low, and low. Why would I do that?

He proceeded to tell me about designer couches and cars and jewelry. And more.

Just no.

[GaGrl]

Prof, what about looking at debt in your name and debt in her name, and see if the calculation of alimony could be done so that she becomes 100% responsible for her debt repayment. That way, you pay alimony on time for the length of time agreed upon, and if she does not handle her finances, it's not on you to do anything.

[ForeverDad]

Can you see a goal becoming apparent here?  Divorce is giving you an opportunity to separate yourself from her behaviors, actions and consequences.

As much as I tried to be the 'fixer' in our final years together — and of course failed due to the extent of the dysfunction — the 'fix' was divorce that separated us and our lives and set a basic framework for parenting.  This follows the court's own perspective.  Court does not try to fix people.  It uses its procedures, adjusted by the documented behaviors of the spouses, to unwind the marriage or relationship.

Your intention was to manage both current and future expenses, thinking that assuming all the current debt would somehow keep her from adding more debt.  You can't live her life for her.  The relationship has ended.  The most practical approach is to take the 30,000 foot view, how to separate yourselves with the least amount of her impacting you while keeping it as simple as possible.

However, there is some validity here.  If any of the existing debt is in joint cards or some sort of joint ownership then even if the court declares it is not your responsibility, the lenders could still come after you because it was incurred while it was a joint account.  (Courts can be reluctant to actually enforce their prior decisions or orders.  Evidently they expect compliance with an order and don't want to deal with later complications.)

[formflier]

Are you really expecting to pay alimony?

Does child support she would pay you look like more or less than the alimony?

I understand collecting it is a different matter.

Best,

FF

[prof]

You can't live her life for her.  The relationship has ended.  The most practical approach is to take the 30,000 foot view, how to separate yourselves with the least amount of her impacting you while keeping it as simple as possible.

I love this quote -- thank you!

Are you really expecting to pay alimony?

Does child support she would pay you look like more or less than the alimony?

I honestly have no idea -- I'm hoping to get a clearer picture from my L when we meet.  (Something came up and our meeting has been reschedule for Monday...)

[livednlearned]

One thing to discuss with your L, too, is how to structure everything so that you aren't waiting on her actions for anything.

Meaning, if it's possible to use retirement funds to pay off credit card debt, try to have it done so that the funds go directly to those accounts.

Otherwise you'll probably never see the money  

Same with visitation. For example, ask that she undergoes a psyche eval and drug testing before resuming the halfway visitation. Until then, S5 will do supervised visits only in your hometown.

You have to look ahead 1 month, 6 months, a year, 2 years and ask yourself, knowing her past history (and yours), what is going to become an untenable aggravation. Usually it's missing a loophole in the language that could've easily been closed in the wording of your order.

It takes a little creativity and some back and forth with your lawyer to figure out details that can work in your state.

Your challenge may be letting go the guilt or obligation you feel in determining what kind of relationship she will have with your son. Do you think there's truth to that?

[formflier]

• Retirement.  This is pretty much our only asset.  We already disbursed a decent chunk of it to her this past winter, and I want to make sure that that's taken into account when splitting it up.

I think you should ask for the split to be done according to who contributed.  For sure anything that has already been paid out (given to her) needs to be listed for "full credit" towards you.

Perhaps think about something creative such as retirement funds that would go to her (if you feel obligated to offer her some)...be put in a college account for your child.

Is it possible to stay silent about this if she is not demanding (again..don't function for her)

• Credit card debt.  This is substantial.  I'd love if we're just responsible for what's in our names, as most of it is in hers, but realistically I'd expect a 50/50 split, or maybe even more in my name since I'm in a significantly better financial position.
   I've been paying minimum payments on her bills throughout the separation, but she continues to spend on most of them, so it's like throwing away money.  I don't want to continue doing this after the divorce obviously.  If I end up being responsible for some of the debt in her name, then would it be a good idea to just get a personal loan and pay it off?

I would push this to be portioned up to the people that created it.

Perhaps more importantly.  If you become obligated to pay any debt...that it is written in the order that you pay the bills direction (she never touches the money)

• Alimony.  How much will it be, and how long will it last?  Will it stop if she remarries or cohabitates?  How would I send it to her?

Obviously you talk to your L about this...but the real question is can we stay silent on this.  Perhaps "flip it".  Can an argument be made for her to owe you? (it's worth some thought)

• Child support.  I have primary custody, so will she owe me?  (She hasn't paid me a dime so far, but hasn't been ordered to either.)  Could I just deduct this from alimony?  What about when he's visiting her -- would I have to pay her something?

This is going to be HUGE for you.  Push this hard, including asking for "back pay" for the separation time.  State law will guide what you can get.

Also ask if this can be tied to visitation or other consequences.  Sure..I would guess that state law has consequences for not paying.  That's separate from consequences that YOU would want in YOUR divorce decree.  Automatic consequences.

This may not be allowed in state law...but you should ask.

• Visitations.  Will there be a fixed schedule?  What if she's unable to meet halfway?  Will there be some way of assessing whether she is fit to take care of him?

This is a place where you need to have BIG demands. 
1.  No visitation unless she is cleared in writing with psyche eval and likely a "parenting eval" (these might be different things.  As a separate issue see if it can be required that she be in (and compliant) parenting therapy or something like that.  Her  alienation attempts on video chat are her decision...don't save her from the consequences..and don't flinch in putting consequences in the divorce decree.

• Video chats.  Will these be on a fixed schedule?  What should I do if she says toxic things about me?

I would ask that the decree be specific about it being ok for you or a family therapist to monitor and record video chats.

Ask if you can define a list of toxic things she has said that she will be prohibited from saying to your son.  With automatic consequences if she does it. 

Yes...ask if you can list it out in the decree.

Then also put language in there about what exactly you do if she says things not on the list.  Perhaps you show the video to a family therapist and if the therapist says your son shouldn't hear it...it's now forbidden for her to say that.

you don't want to be forced to go back to court to "restrict" her from alienation.

• What to do if something were to happen to me?  If she's not fit to take care of him, then perhaps he should instead live with someone in my family.

Good question  Ask if this should be in the decree or in your will or some other document. 

[prof]

Thanks again everyone for your comments!

The appointment today went well.  This is what we're going to take to the judge:

• Split the retirement 50/50, but taking account the amount we've already disbursed to her.
• Each of us would be responsible for the credit card debt in our own name.  If the judge decides I need to take on some of her debt, then just increase her share of the retirement accordingly to pay it off.  The lost income would likely be less than the interest I'd pay on that debt.
• My L isn't going to mention alimony.  If the judge orders some, then we'll try to go for a lump sum out of the retirement account.  My L thinks it's very unlikely that the judge would order both alimony and to pay off some of her credit card debt.
• We won't request child support.  The chances of her paying it are very slim and it's not worth the fight.  I've being doing just fine without it for 1.5 years.
• Visitations on school breaks, half of Christmas, half of summer, every other Thanksgiving, pending a drug test.  If she can't meet halfway, then we'd need to make other arrangements like paying for my gas.
• Video chats will always be in the presence of the other parent.
• We'll write a will in which custody of S6 would go to a member of my family if something were to happen to me.  uBPDstbxw would then need to challenge that in court to get custody.

There's a chance that the judge doesn't want to finalize things on Thursday, but my L is hopeful that we can get this thing finished once and for all.

[formflier]

 

• We won't request child support.  The chances of her paying it are very slim and it's not worth the fight.  I've being doing just fine without it for 1.5 years.

I would hope you can readdress this with your L. 

On the one hand I get it that you may never see it and it won't be worth the fight to "collect".  That being said you won't get what you don't ask for.

At a minimum I would want you and L to be ready that if the judge says "hey..let's give some alimony, that you say ok we are asking for child support".

Isn't there a state amount for one child.  It would seem at a minimum that should be in there to ask for.

• Visitations on school breaks, half of Christmas, half of summer, every other Thanksgiving, pending a drug test.  If she can't meet halfway, then we'd need to make other arrangements like paying for my gas.

Did you discuss "pending psyche/parenting eval.  The drug test is good..but I think falls short of what you will need.

What are the consequences (automatic consequences written in) of her failing to pay for your gas on not bringing him back halfway.

• Video chats will always be in the presence of the other parent.

Is alienation going to be mentioned?  What about an automatic consequence or procedure?  If your state is a "two party consent" state for recording, you may want to put in there explicitly that it's ok for either one of you to record phone and video calls (so you can prove alienation if it ever occurs)

• We'll write a will in which custody of S6 would go to a member of my family if something were to happen to me.  uBPDstbxw would then need to challenge that in court to get custody.

Solid. 

There's a chance that the judge doesn't want to finalize things on Thursday, but my L is hopeful that we can get this thing finished once and for all.

I think you are on the right track.  Did you talk at all about "automatic consequences"?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I agree with FF -- I think you have to ask for at least minimal child support. My stepdaughter never got more than the original $160 /month -- but finally it was taken from his paycheck. It is a minimal gesture toward the child's physical needs.

Don't be surprised if she requests alimony.

My primary concern is that any payoff of credit card debt is HER responsibikity. If it comes from a retirement fund payout, and she then does not use it for debt payoff, it cannot, per court order, come back to you. Clarity, clarity, clarity.I

On the video calls -- this is so dangerous. She has to be monitored.

Holidays can be tricky. In addition to what you listed, consider...

Son's birthday
Mother's day
Father's day

Are there any religious holidays to consider? My son's dad is Jewish, so we needed to insert those into the annual calendar.

[prof]

I just received word that the hearing has been moved to next month.  The court was concerned that uBPDstbxw may not have been aware of it due to the withdrawal of her L.

FF and GaGrl -- I'll bring your points up with my L.  I imagine we may need to re-strategize a bit anyway now that it appears more likely that uBPDstbxw will be present.

[formflier]

I would ask him specifically if you guys should "legally notify her" (usually certified return receipt) of the date/time of hearing.

So..the court moved hearing, without anyone asking?  Isn't that odd?  Ask.

I could get it if you showed up and she didn't..that a judge may give "one last chance"..but to assume she won't show.  That's weird (IMO)

Listen..ask for lots of stuff even if you don't intend to "enforce".  Who knows what the world will look like in a couple years.  Much better to be able to enforce something in the decree then...rather than going back to court.

I'm still stuck on this...the court reset a hearing one day prior..just because they were concerned...that doesn't ring true.   Perhaps she called.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

If her lawyer had withdrawn then wouldn't the court have sent notifications directly to her address?

[prof]

I would ask him specifically if you guys should "legally notify her" (usually certified return receipt) of the date/time of hearing.

So..the court moved hearing, without anyone asking?  Isn't that odd?  Ask.

I could get it if you showed up and she didn't..that a judge may give "one last chance"..but to assume she won't show.  That's weird (IMO)

Listen..ask for lots of stuff even if you don't intend to "enforce".  Who knows what the world will look like in a couple years.  Much better to be able to enforce something in the decree then...rather than going back to court.

I'm still stuck on this...the court reset a hearing one day prior..just because they were concerned...that doesn't ring true.   Perhaps she called.

I asked my L today for clarification about why the hearing was moved back.  Supposedly the judge was looking over his calendar for the next day, saw our case and realized that uBPDstbxw may not be aware of it due to the withdrawal of her L, and then made the decision.

My L has been asked to notify her of the new date.  However, he's going to wait until the last possible date to do so and also use the address which the court has on file.  She just moved to the other side of the state, so unless she took the initiative to update her address with the court, she still may not end up being notified.

If her lawyer had withdrawn then wouldn't the court have sent notifications directly to her address?

My understanding of the timeline is that the hearing date was set before her L withdrew.  We're not sure if uBPDstbxw got the info from her L before that.


Some additional good news.  The GAL finally submitted his report and my L ran into him the other day at court and they chatted about the case.  He reported uBPDstbxw as being manipulative and that she refused to let him talk to her T.  He recommended that I be granted custody. 

[formflier]

Some additional good news.  The GAL finally submitted his report and my L ran into him the other day at court and they chatted about the case.  He reported uBPDstbxw as being manipulative and that she refused to let him talk to her T.  He recommended that I be granted custody. 

OK...add this to your final decree. 

No visitation until

1  Drug test (and continuing drug tests..maybe once a year)
2  Psyche eval
3.  Parenting eval (might be combined with 2...but there needs to be specific professional evaluation of her parenting ability.
4.  GAL allowed to talk to T and all medical providers.  (basically gal would be the one that recommends visitation starts after verifying 1-3 has happened).  You do not want 1,2, 3 to happen and the visitation be automatic.  You also don't want a GAL to be able to override and say visitation can start..even though part of 1-3 has been skipped.

Circling back around.  The GAL thing is good news, however it's not unexpected.

I think you are in a good position, yet I think the "details" that go in the decree will be very important to keep your life calm in 5 years..10.

You don't want to be back in front of a judge "asking" for something.  It would be ok to be back there "defending " (your wife taking you to court). 

For her to be successful she would need to show prior compliance...that's where the details matter. 

Back to GAL.  Let's say she reforms and gets visitation, then goes off the rail.  Hopefully you  can put language in there that says visitation will be restricted again until GAL certifies 1-3 are back in order.

Much easier to point GAL at an issue, vice going back to court.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

If she didn't update her address, but you knew that she moved, will you get in trouble?

Will they end up postponing it again?

[formflier]

If she didn't update her address, but you knew that she moved, will you get in trouble?

Will they end up postponing it again?

My guess is that if you properly notify the address on file AND do a notification by publication (legals section) that would be considered over and above effort.

Keep "proof of publication", which would normally be a receipt from the hometown newspaper where she lives as well as proof of notification receipts and tracking for the mail.

Best,

FF