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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: All I ever asked was to communicate  (Read 633 times)
ColdKnight
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« on: August 15, 2019, 05:28:05 AM »

When my uBPDxf discarded me cold in July of 2018 I immediately scoured the internet for answers. I came across dating coaches and concluded I had been to needy and over-pursued her.

I then came across NPD and soon after BPD. I spoke with 3 different relationship counselors online and related my suspicions of NPD/BPD. 2 of three counselors said basically she is sick, run and don’t look back. I refused. Turning your back on her would be like turning your back on a blind person.

I started reading all I could about BPD. Stop walking on eggshells, I love you I hate you but I need you, stop care taking the borderline etc etc etc.

Armed with information I set in for a second go around. Almost a year later I called her up and asked to see her again. The silent treatment episodes started almost immediately. I tried everything I had learned. She just refused to communicate. Absolutely could not do it. Almost seemed to hate it.

That’s all I ever asked was to communicate. I could have tolerated almost anything if she would just communicate. You don’t feel like coming over tonight baby doll? Just text me and say you don’t feel like it. I’ll be disappointed but I’ll understand. But she wouldn’t she would go for days without texting back. I almost felt like she enjoyed it.

After a four short months of the first recycle I have given up.

I feel like a failure. I told her “you are worth fighting for” “I am not going to abandon you” but I could not take her refusal to communicate anymore...
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firefighter5

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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 06:51:52 PM »

Hi ColdKnight.

I can relate to the frustration around lack of communication.  For me, it feels like unnecessary emotional suffocation and you're just standing there, gasping for air, looking at them wondering why they don't give you something, anything.

So you broke up and a year later you asked for another go.  She agreed but just won't communicate with you?  When you do talk (you must, at moments?), what is that like?  Does there seem to be certain occasions, timings, or patterns when she gives you the silent treatment vs. when she doesn't?

This sounds so challenging.  I wonder if during your year apart you gained any more clarity about your needs in this relationship.  Can we actually meet the needs of the ones we love if ours aren't being met?  When they are presenting the protocol in the event of an aircraft emergency, they always say you need to put your oxygen mask on first before trying to help others.  Even children.  So even if she is a child emotionally, you are still only human and you can't help her if you are suffocating.
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AskingWhy
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 10:51:12 PM »

This sounds so challenging.  I wonder if during your year apart you gained any more clarity about your needs in this relationship.  Can we actually meet the needs of the ones we love if ours aren't being met?  When they are presenting the protocol in the event of an aircraft emergency, they always say you need to put your oxygen mask on first before trying to help others.  Even children.  So even if she is a child emotionally, you are still only human and you can't help her if you are suffocating.

FF5, this metaphor of the aircraft emergency is so on target.  We have to practice self care first if we are to love and help others. 
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 02:47:20 PM »

There were times when we communicated very well. We were always very good in person. Pretty good on the phone and texting was sometimes hit or miss.

Things would be going well and inevitably something would set her off and she would give me the silent treatment.

The last straw was when she got upset and I called. She answered and asked if she could call me back. She never did.

Two weeks later I reached out via text and she was very cold. After a day or two she told me that she had met someone.

I sent a long text calling her out on all of her BS and I wasn’t nice about it. As we work at the same company I told her that I would avoid her and I expected her to do the same. She didn’t respond.

The next day she sent out a work email in which I was included on, inviting a group of us to a baby shower for a person who I am friendly with but not enough to attend a baby shower. Why she did this I have no idea.

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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 10:13:55 PM »

How is it working out to avoid her at your workplace? Do you think this will be a sustainable strategy?
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2019, 10:51:09 PM »

Hi Cat

The company is big. We have three offices across the city and we work in different offices so the only time we will cross paths is at training and if we end up on the same project together which could happen. It did a few months ago right after I had ended it because I caught her lying to me. The next day we were on a job together which led to us getting together again only for it to end a few weeks later, again.

So is it sustainable? Yes and no. It’s not like I know I will see her everyday but always a chance. I can avoid her though...unless she continues to send me work emails which I have no idea why she did that the day after I sent her what was basically a go eff yourself message.

Thoughts?
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formflier
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 07:49:48 AM »

So...sometimes looking at a "message" someone is sending you from a different perspective is helpful.

Let's assume you are correct, that she has a personality disorder (the traits are certainly there).  So..let's go with your view that she's sick.

Perhaps she understands this at a very fundamental level.

I find it helpful to use this point of view.  We someone says or demonstrates with their actions that they aren't ready to talk right now (or at all).  Please believe them.

That's certainly true for me.  I've said many things I deeply regret after being pushed into a conversation I wasn't ready for.

It's good that you have read a lot about "dealing with a pwBPD".  I'd like to hear your thoughts about invalidation and how your approach might be invalidating her.

Best,

FF
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 03:20:50 AM »

Hi FF,

Yes she knows she is sick. We have talked about it but we never attached a label to it. Some of the things she said “thank you for making me feel cared for even though I’m jacked up” she told me that she was “tired of crying along at night” and sometimes she needed to spend and entire day by herself in a dark room. One night we were in bed I even asked her “are you crazy” and she said “yes” and was totally serious about it.

One day I sent this after I hadn’t heard from her in few days “Hey baby doll. You told me you accept and understand me. Well I accept and understand you. You never have to apologize for who you are either. I know you go hot and cold. You can love me one day and hate me the next for something I don’t even know I did.” She responded but did not address anything in the text. Like I had never said any of those things. I would think a normal person with no sickness would want to know what I meant by that.

She also told me that she used to hate herself but has gotten a lot better.

I tried very much to validate her but I started to feel like I was begging. She texted me one night asking what I was doing. I told her I was handling out with a buddy. She said have a good time. About an hour later I asked what she was doing and she didn’t respond. Two days  I could feel something was wrong so I texted and asked if I had hurt her feelings. She ignored me. I sent two more texts that night saying I was still here for her and
Supported her. I did that for three or four days with no response. Finally I quit texting because I was worried I was smothering her. Also we work together so I was always worried about her making a complaint.

This happened several times where she would give me the silent treatment and I would send validating texts. I got tired of it and quit doing it. Again always afraid of her making a complaint so I would send “I’m still here for you baby doll unless you don’t want me to be”  She never did tell me to leave her alone however.

Part of me felt like she was getting off on me “validating” her when she was giving me the silent treatment.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 06:39:43 AM »


Is your goal to learn to "validate" her? 

Do you want to understand better how to "help" her be better/function more normally?

Best,

FF
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2019, 03:49:26 AM »

My goal would be just for her to communicate with me.

Is it really that hard for pwBPD to communicate and express their needs and wants.

If she needs space and need time to think and doesn’t feel like talking just say so. To just ignore someone is not ok no matter what you are feeling if you truly care about the other person.

There is so much I am willing to work with but I can’t work with someone who can’t or most likely refuses to communicate.
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2019, 08:31:46 AM »

My goal would be just for her to communicate with me.
 

Isn't she communicating by staying silent?  What message are you receiving?

To answer your question, yet...it can be very hard to communicate "consistently"..when your emotional "backdrop" is not consistent

Let's circle back.  Are you really saying that you want her to communicate with you in a way that you "like"?  Or.."just communicate".


Best,

FF
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ABC123987

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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2019, 10:31:41 AM »

I'm not sure what I'll write here will help, but here goes. And it's going to be a l long post.

I went through what you describe in a 5 year relationship. Too long to write about the details because I'm not sure the details matter, it's the behavioral patterns that are the same and I recognize them here. I was ghosted often, sometimes for a week at a time, I was kicked out of her place multiple times, and so on.

Her behavior made no sense to me, I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I knew she had serious mental problems, but didn't identify it as BPD until about 6-8 months before we split (I'm not a doc, she hasn't been formally diagnosed, but I'm certain she would meet the full DSM-V criteria for BPD, and the source of it environmentally was an abusive, emotionless childhood at home and more).

When she behaved the way you described I tried to 'help', I validated her as best I could, I did the things you describe. I sent her an email once, saying I was confused, that I loved her, that I don't understand why she was treating me this way -- her response was a text tirade of how I wouldn't change my behaviors and worse. Then a couple of hours later, a good night, I love you text from her.

She had moments she recognized she had these issues, that something was wrong -- she would sometimes apologize the day after an incident, but it wouldn't 'stick'. Alcohol abuse clouded the behaviors further.

She projected onto me often, meaning she would ask me why I was acting like a dick, out of the blue, and I'd sit there stunned, my mind racing through what I'd said or did the past hour or day trying to find out what *I* did to 'fail' her, or make her angry. The truth is, I was a foil for her BPD. I'm certain that she had emotions she couldn't manage, and, in that example, had the emotions related to how badly she was treating me, she couldn't accept that about herself, so split it off and projected it on to me.

The turning point for me came after one particular incident: I had stayed the evening, ordered the 'right' food for delivery, we had a wonderfully intimate night, it was heaven. Next morning things seemed fine; I got up, got ready for work, said I'd come over around 1pm to drive her to the airport for a work trip and pick up her pup to watch. Before I left I asked her if I should take the leftovers or leave them for her. She said take them. I returned at 1pm to find her sitting at her kitchen counter with her work laptop, and it's clear she is fuming and angry. "Why didn't you leave anything for me to eat?" My adrenaline began pumping immediately, and I responded, "You said to take the leftovers." I struggled to remain calm, and sat out back in the sun for a bit while she fumed inside. I went in for water. "You didn't even leave some of it for me -- you should have known to do that." I asked her if she remembered me asking her if I should take them or leave them, and that she said to take them -- she responded yes, she remembered. That's when the light bulb went off in my head: none of this was about me. I'm certain it was her emotional dis-regulation kicking in -- she was feeling intense emotions she had never learned or been taught how to manage, she needed something to 'pin' those emotions on because to her it was obvious that her emotions were always caused by someone externally, so she pinned it on the only thing that presented itself -  me taking the leftovers. Had I not taken them, she would have still been fuming when I came over to drive her to the airport, and would have picked something else to pin her emotions on, possibly why I didn't take the leftovers with me.

Why would she still have been fuming? Because I'm certain the real cause of her anger when I arrived to pick her up was due to how close and intimate we were the night before. It was too close, and now the feelings of being intimate were overwhelming her, threatening to her, generating feelings of fear of being controlled, smothered -- she was afraid of her love feelings towards me (she'd said this many times in our relationship). She had switched to 'push away' behaviors to distance me so her emotions would settle.

Sure, this is speculation on my part -- who am I to say what was really going on in her mind? Experience, four and a half years of experiencing incidents like this, being exposed to the pull and then the push. She would say 'part time is working well for me, I can't see myself being full time with anyone' -- I sat there and somehow responded in my most uncharacteristic way -- "that works for me -- we don't have to be together full time, or even live together or get married" -- and that caused a sudden shift in her to where she was silent, then asking questions - "really?" and "how would that work?" and others. It was clear that she was trying to push me away, but instead of trying to get pulled back in I indicated that me 'going away' was fine, and then she started 'pulling' me back immediately.

She ghosted me for a week many times, but during one, I went shopping, new clothing, sports jacket, things that I felt good about. I went out to a meetup and met someone who is now a good friend. When she texted me a week later, asking me to come over, I was in one of my new sport jackets, slacks, nice shoes. The change affected her, she was silent, would ask a question about the clothing. Asked what I'd been doing the past week, said I went out to a meetup, and that got her attention -- she was saying things like it's dangerous to be out around that location; why would I go? Why would I meet people? And so on. I attribute that to her fear of abandonment, here I was doing independent things, taking care of myself, MEETING other people, and I'm certain she took it as a threat that I was potentially going off on my own without needing her.

If you've slogged through all of that, here is the reality that I refused to see in our relationship, and I think it's the reality you need to face, accept and work with, followed by my advice:

- It's not your fault. Her behaviors truly have little to do with you directly or personally, most of the time. Yes, you may do something that should legitimately piss her or someone else off, but most of her behaviors are generated from within, and it's not about you. They're almost certainly emotions that are overwhelming her, and that likely come from extremely damaging childhood development environment. It's not your fault she is generating emotions within her and then blaming you for them, or behaving the way she is behaving. Her behavior isn't about you at all.

- You do not have control w/r to her, and you have to accept that. You want contact, communication, I completely understand. You want to help, you want to validate her (I have advice about that later). I get that, and I was at that same place. But if she does not respond, does not reply, does not want to communicate with you, that's her right not to do those things. (Again, advice later on how to handle that).

- You are not going to resolve this with logic or reason, so set those aside.  The fact is this is how her mind works, and you are not going to change that from the outside. Only she can do that. You can certainly help in specific ways, but *she* must be open to that, and accept that, and if she doesn't, you not only won't convince her to, it's not your place to. It's not her fault she is the way she is now, but it is her responsibility as an adult to 'sort herself out', to do something about this.


My advice is as follows:

- If you want to keep the opportunity open for communication with her, that's fine -- nothing wrong with that. Text her every once in a while, for example, and just say something like, "Hey, checking in -- hope all is well with you. Would love to grab lunch some time, but completely understand if you don't want to. Take care! Smiling (click to insert in post)" She may not reply, or she may reply with something you don't want to hear. Or she may want to have lunch. No matter WHAT the response is, or if there isn't one, PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOU as a result. Because ...

- You have work to do on yourself. Ask yourself: Why would you be hurt if she doesn't respond, or she responds negatively? Or she won't communicate? Why are you so intent on pushing her to communicate -- that's what you want, but it doesn't seem to be what she wants, and regardless of why, you seem to refuse to accept that and YOU feel hurt as a result. What is it you want from her? Why? Is it possible you're getting exactly what you want from her right now? The 'struggle' may be recreating your own childhood or emotional traumas that you're comfortable with and familiar with.

She certainly sounds like she is mal-adaptive, has behaviors that seem to fit with BPD behaviors, and needs help. But guess what? What you are doing and how you are feeling are indications that you have your own mal-adaptive behaviors and emotions that are being generated that you want generated. NO ONE can make you have an emotion, whether it's anger, sadness, happiness, joy and so on. Some incident or event happens and YOU react and respond with an automatic emotion or feeling that you almost certainly developed as a defense mechanism between infancy and 4-5 years old. YOU are generating those, in response to what's going on outside of you with her. She is *your* foil in that you are choosing, albeit subconsciously, to pursue someone who has seemed to indicate that she does not want to communicate. How you respond indicates that you have your own attachment issue or issues that you need to delve into and sort out.

It is irrelevant that she texts you things that don't make sense, or ghosts you right after texts that seem to indicate she wants to communicate; or invites you on the To: line to a baby shower at work, right after cutting you off. These are behaviors that seem to make no sense but that's only because you're putting them in the context of a relationship with you, and not accepting that these are the behaviors she has due to emotional dis-regulation and that *is* the explanation. There is nothing you can discuss that will penetrate to help or 'fix' her fragmented, damaged personality and behaviors.

I say all of this with compassion. Work on yourself. You have attachment or other issues that are keeping you locked into this, and you're justifying it (I think) by being the knight in shining armor who will save her. You won't. The best you can do is resolve your emotional and developmental attachment stuff.

I thought I was the knight in shining armor. I thought I could save her. I thought I could help. Why? Because I had / still have attachment issues from my childhood that I've been delving into for over a year now. I chose to go into therapy because it became clear after the 'leftovers' incident that, yes, she had significant issues, but no matter how I wanted to help or be with her, there was nothing I could do but be her foil, and because of my attachment issues, I did not have a strong self that could withstand the projections and criticisms and attacks that to me made no sense, and that would trigger my defensiveness and protest behaviors. I thank her in my head regularly for being the one who made me realize I needed to sort myself out, that I was not going to fix her.

We haven't communicated in almost a year. I still miss her; we've crossed paths a few times -- she works a block away, we use the same coffee shop, etc. so it happens. The last time, I was exited right as she was entering. I said good morning in a nice way, she retorted with a curt, "Hey" and bolted into the coffee shop.

I've since heard from a friend who knows us both that she's had two boyfriends since, both crashed and burned quickly, and that she is now realizing that she is the 'problem' in her relationships. How far that will go is up to her.

My therapist has said, several times, she needs to hit bottom. That the best thing I can do is stay away and let her be. I'm certain that's the best advice, though it was incredibly hard to accept at first.

My goal with therapy is to sort myself out. Go do the same for yourself. It's not your fault she's the way she is, it's not your fault she won't communicate with you. You are enough, you always have been. You need to developing a strong self before you can be involved with someone else in a deep romantic relationship. I stopped dating completely. I need to  fully resolve my own mal-adaptive issues before getting involved with someone again, because if I don't I WILL REPEAT THIS PATTERN AND CHOOSE WOMEN who subconsciously I know will trigger my attachment issues and we'll be in the same situation again.

Take responsibility for you, at least for now. Be open to communicating if that's what you want, text once in a while, but observe your own feelings and emotions of hurt or frustration or anger that YOU are generating as a result of her behavior. Don't blame her for those feelings in you. Those emotions and feelings are created by you, and they are your responsibility, but they are gifts, because they point to where you need to work, they are signals -- you can trace them back to where they came from and resolve them in the past.

I can post one or two examples of my emotions flaring up, how I traced them back, and what they were originally created from if you like, just reply here -- this post is long enough I think it's time to close it!

All the best, and I hope you begin turning the spotlight towards your self and work there -- it's something you have a measure of influence and control of, something you can do.







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bradio

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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2019, 04:48:07 PM »

Abc, I would be interested to hear one or two stories of the flaring up an dhow you traced them back. I think this would really help coldknight and someone like me as well. cheers, Bradio
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2019, 05:15:07 PM »

ABC,

You are absolutely correct in everything you said. I know it and have known it for a while now. In fact I give very similar advice to others. But knowing it and coming to grips with it in my own situation are two different animals. I am getting there though.

I have plenty of issues myself. I may in fact be “bordeline” borderline. I have never any deep connections with women and have always been able to walk and never look back. She and I used to talk about how similar creatures we were. She even said “I think that’s why I’m so intoxicated with you”

In fact I have cut and run 5 times on her. Three the first go round and twice on this second. One or two of those I used the silent treatment myself. So I wasn’t one to instill a lot of confidence in her about our relationship.

I know that if she doesn’t want to communicate then I can’t force her to. Two things made me continue to reach out when she wouldn’t communicate:

 1) After our first hiccup last year (my fault completely) I basically told her when she pulls away I am going to pull away farther. She responded by saying “we both know that I don’t communicate well, instead of pulling away farther why can’t you be the one who pulls us in closer”

2) I started finding out about BPD and abandonment issues. She has told me she has abandonment issues and so do I. I read somewhere in my research that you need to constantly re assure them that you will always be there for them. Over communicating with pwBPD is always better supposedly.

I am usually very good at giving space. In fact we both talked about how we both need our alone time. She even mentioned that we both need to get on the same “cycle”. So I would always be the one to reach out when she went silent. I was worried that she was wanting me to and that she was going to feel abandoned if I didn’t.

I know she is afraid of getting close just as I am. She told me once that she was afraid of the way I made her feel and that she didn’t want to feel that way but that she liked that she did. I was feeling the exact same way. I didn’t want to start falling for her but I liked that I was.

This is getting overly long so I will stop for now but I would like to hear more of the details of your story. Reading others’ experiences really helps me process and move on.

Thank you for the detailed response. Have questions for you but would like to hear your feedback first.
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ColdKnight
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2019, 05:21:34 PM »

Hey FF,

Yes you are right. She is communicating by not communicating. And so yes I would like her to communicate the way I like. In my response to ABC above I explain why.

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