Thinking of Asking for Custody Evaluation

[mama-wolf]

Looking for some insight and hoping to hear of experience with custody evaluations.

When I separated from uBPDxw in June of last year, I agreed to 50/50 custody mainly because we had already signed a parenting agreement years before that we would do so should we separate.  That was before any awareness on my part of the true nature of her mental health issues, and certainly before I woke up to the emotional manipulation and abuse in the relationship.  But still, when it came time to separate, I didn't feel like I had a leg to stand on to try and fight for any more than 50/50.

So I at least put a PC in place at that point to help referee any deadlocks with uBPDxw, and I have been trying to give family therapy a chance to work over the past year.  It wasn't really going anywhere, but then uBDPxw shared that following some major breakdowns, she participated in a 10-day intensive outpatient treatment program at the end of August.  Her behavior was actually noticeably improved in September, but already started sliding back to the emotional manipulation, disregard for boundaries, and impulsiveness before September was over...and it has continued to do so since then.

I have grown convinced that the current custody arrangement is not in the kids' best interests (D10 and S6).  However, I also know the sh*tstorm and complications in dealing with her as a co-parent it will cause if I just file for full custody--or anything other than 50/50, really.  And I don't want to look like the "instigator" to the court, someone just trying to make trouble and take the kids away entirely.  The family therapist agreed with me yesterday that uBPDxw just keeps causing damage, and while she seems able to recognize it after the fact and apologize, the damage is still being done.  She said it would be far better to make a change that improves the quality of the kids' time with uBPDxw, even if it means a reduction in quantity.

I feel like requesting a custody evaluation would take me out of the equation as much as possible, and would show that I am open to an objective evaluation rather than just pushing for what I want.  Thoughts?

mw

[formflier]

  And I don't want to look like the "instigator" to the court, someone just trying to make trouble and take the kids away entirely. 

This is understandable.  I think this is something that you may need to look at in a different way.

You can be the "instigator" that is proposing solutions to reduce damage to your kids.

I think you could do this by proposing a couple options that decrease time and increase supervision of the time she does have with them.

The family therapist agreed with me yesterday that uBPDxw just keeps causing damage, and while she seems able to recognize it after the fact and apologize, the damage is still being done.

Is it the same issue over and over or is the damage being done by "new" arguments/issues and once she realizes it's bad..she "put's that tool down".

If you can show the damage is from repetitive behavior, I suspect you have a stronger case.

  She said it would be far better to make a change that improves the quality of the kids' time with uBPDxw, even if it means a reduction in quantity.

There is a wise pathway here.  This will establish that there are limits to the amount of time she can be "primary" and that her behavior/impact on kids determines this. 

I think it's turning out to be very very wise of you to have the professionals in place that you do.  Bravo and double bravo to you for this!   

I feel like requesting a custody evaluation would take me out of the equation as much as possible, and would show that I am open to an objective evaluation rather than just pushing for what I want.  (less damage to kids)Thoughts?

mw

What I hearing/feeling is that you are saying "it's time to do something", yet you are trying to sort out the best way forward.  Right?

Keep up the good work.   I know this has been a long road for you.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Which parent is considered the Primary Parent, such as for which parent's school district is used?

When I separated and started the divorce, my ex had temp custody and majority time.  After nearly two years in the divorce process, I arrived at court on Trial Day and was greeted with the news that she at last wanted to settle, she couldn't delay any more.  I made one firm condition for settling rather than proceeding with the trial, that I be assigned as the Primary Parent for School Purposes.  Both lawyers, mine too, insisted it didn't mean anything.  But the settlement would have been Shared Parenting and I knew she shouldn't have that edge, however meaningless.  Well, her school agreed to allow our son to complete kindergarten there.  But within a couple months there were enough new incidents that her school gave me one day to register him in my school - about 5-6 weeks before the end of the school year.  Imagine if I failed to get that responsibility, her school would have had to suffer with her antics for who knows how many more years.

I can't say that having school responsibility shaped the future in court that much in my favor, but I am glad I was firm on that.  What do you think are the aspects of your parenting, if changed, would help the kids?  You in charge of school?  You having some level of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status (if court is reluctant to grant full custody)?

I do recall that most therapists are reluctant to testify in court.  But they will generally discuss the matters with a Custody evaluator or Guardian ad Litem (GAL).  The CE is generally better than a GAL because the CE should be more experienced with family dynamics but it can take longer and be more expensive for the in depth efforts.  Whichever, make sure you pick from among a short list of professionals respected for their solid work.

My CE was a child psychologist and was both perceptive and excellent.

[worriedStepmom]

You tried 50-50 custody for more than a year.  Even with the intervention of specialists, your kids are suffering.  It's okay to say "this isn't working, we need to try something else".

My H has filed two custody modifications in two years.  He got primary custody last year (flipped from 50-50 to about 70-30).
That still wasn't the right balance between allowing SD to have a relationship with her mom and protecting her from abuse, so after a year we're in court.  The courts don't see him as an instigator - they see him as someone trying to protect his child.  (In our state, to file a custody modification you also have to file an affidavit of why you are filing.  H's affidavits are focused on the very negative effect that mom's behavior is having on SD, and they specifically mention the patterns.)

H's ex, of course, thinks he is out to steal her child away.  It wouldn't matter if he asked for a custody evaluation instead of directly asking for what he thinks is best.  To  her, he spoke up about the agreement, so therefore everything is his fault forever.  I suspect your ex will be the same way.  This will all be your fault because you brought it up in the first place.

It's not going to be pretty when you file, regardless of what route you choose.  All of her reactions, though, can be used as evidence of how she coparents and how she treats the children (because you know she will ratchet up the pressure on them).

[mama-wolf]

You can be the "instigator" that is proposing solutions to reduce damage to your kids.

You tried 50-50 custody for more than a year.  Even with the intervention of specialists, your kids are suffering.  It's okay to say "this isn't working, we need to try something else".

Thank you, FF and worriedStepmom for the more positive perspective on initiating the change.  It is really hard not to continue letting my inner critic spew the accusations that uBPDxw would be throwing at me herself (and probably will do at her first opportunity once I finally get it started).

Is it the same issue over and over or is the damage being done by "new" arguments/issues and once she realizes it's bad..she "put's that tool down".

If I am understanding your question correctly FF, it's the same problems over and over...it's uBPDxw's impulsive behavior (whether impulsive decisions she makes, lack of reliability and consistency, emotional volatility, etc.) and her total disregard for boundaries.  These things manifest themselves repeatedly through many different scenarios, some that would seem relatively innocuous (uBPDxw continuing to ask questions of an upset D10 when she has asked for space) and some that are impossible to ignore (uBPDxw telling D10 to shut up and that she's going to slap her).

Which parent is considered the Primary Parent, such as for which parent's school district is used?

What do you think are the aspects of your parenting, if changed, would help the kids?  You in charge of school?  You having some level of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status (if court is reluctant to grant full custody)?

I don't recall either of us being specifically designated Primary Parent on any documentation, though I did insist in mediation that the kids remain at their current school through D10's completion of elementary school.  That school assignment was based on my address since I kept the house in the divorce.

As far as what aspects to change...I'd say I want to see an 80/20 split (uBPDxw getting alternating weekends only) with me being primary parent and decision maker.  Ultimately I can accept if they leave decision making as split between the two of us because we have the Parent Coordinator in place for another two years.

I do recall that most therapists are reluctant to testify in court.  But they will generally discuss the matters with a Custody evaluator or Guardian ad Litem (GAL).  The CE is generally better than a GAL because the CE should be more experienced with family dynamics but it can take longer and be more expensive for the in depth efforts.  Whichever, make sure you pick from among a short list of professionals respected for their solid work.

Thank you for this, FD!  I know of the GAL role and have considered that path but do feel like a CE would be the best option to give me the best change of the outcome I'm looking for...in spite of the expense.

H's ex, of course, thinks he is out to steal her child away.  It wouldn't matter if he asked for a custody evaluation instead of directly asking for what he thinks is best.  To  her, he spoke up about the agreement, so therefore everything is his fault forever.  I suspect your ex will be the same way.  This will all be your fault because you brought it up in the first place.

It's not going to be pretty when you file, regardless of what route you choose.  All of her reactions, though, can be used as evidence of how she coparents and how she treats the children (because you know she will ratchet up the pressure on them).

Yes, I expect this is what's coming.  How dare I ever question her behavior or capabilities as a parent, right?  It's a major source for my ongoing anxiety, but just like walking through the fire of separation I don't see any other choice.  And I agree her reactions will very likely support my position.

mw

[formflier]

some that are impossible to ignore (uBPDxw telling D10 to shut up and that she's going to slap her).

Ugg..

Clarity.  Did you guys ever do corporal punishment?  (trying to see if your ex can construct a weird argument how this was ok or "misheard")

Can you prove this?  How?

Stepping back (and taking a deep breath...I'm sure you have to often).  What I'm seeing is D10 is likely a 10 year old and where a normal adult could work through a 10 year old being 10, your pwBPD does threats and other crazy stuff.  This pushes 10 year old in wrong direction.

So in this scenario I just laid out I'm seeing a "normal" pwBPD get pushed into "rage" by a 10 year old, vice being a parent.  (do I have this about right?)

Is there provable evidence of a "normal calm 10 year old" being the target of BPD rage.  So...pwBPD has bad day, is cut off in traffic..whatever...and the outlet is rage/abuse at 10 year old?

I'm asking about the nuance because if courts are looking to fix/repair/protect...the solutions would look very different. 

Last thought for now. 

I'm wondering if you should send a letter (something official) to your ex.  "Hey, everyone sees that you did so much better after attending the 10 day program.  Everyone also is aware of troubling behavior coming back.  Either commit to a long term treatment plan or I will file for modification to protect our children."

(I'm not suggesting you use those words, just giving the flavor of a potential letter.)

Since it's an official letter, it will be part of any future court filing.  Her refusal (likely) would (IMO) speak volumes and reduce the chances of anyone/any agency seeing you as "vengeful" and would portray you as out to protect the kids/find solutions.

Thoughts?

FF

[zachira]

You tried joint custody for a year and it did not work. I am thinking if you wait too long to do a custody evalution and ask for more custody, you will have less chance of getting more custody. Just my thoughts, not based on personal experience. Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your children who deserve the best childhood possible.

[livednlearned]

I would do a custody evaluation if I'm following the specifics of your situation.

You have so many cooks in the kitchen, which is a good thing, but it also seems like everyone is trying to help the family function by giving a diagnosed BPD parent as much rope as possible, and in the meantime, the kids are suffering.

In a CE, you would have someone advocating specifically for the kids, who is also talking to the professionals, and will know (not guess) that there is a BPD dx.

Is that pretty accurate?

I wonder if your PC would agree to recommend the CE? That way you are not the target, and it would not add additional fire to the chronic conflict.

The dithering that the professionals are doing in your case would make me nuts. They seem to have a much higher threshold for abuse, maybe because they see worse. But when it comes to your kids, their well-being, their formative experiences, the relative spectrum of abuse doesn't factor. Not to them.

My son just turned 18 and he is whip smart and very reflective. So many times sitting in his therapists office (when invited in), I feel relieved that I made choices for him when I could. In his own way, he is re-litigating what happened to him. Who showed up, who didn't. Who can he trust. Who put his needs first when he wasn't able to advocate for himself. Those handful of years matter for the rest of his life, and it matters loads for our relationship. He does not feel much in the way of family bonds because he knows that bond is not a given. What he does focus on is trust -- who are the people he could trust. Even though he expresses frustration with some of my choices (apparently the swim team at age 6 was a bust), I feel solid in seeking solutions that were in his best interests.

These are long, long relationships we have with our kids.

This is a bit of a tangent ... yesterday when S18 was talking about his middle school and teen experiences, it was an emotional revelation for me that only he and I went through those experiences together. He was there but he was a child and we rarely discussed his experiences going through what we did. Yesterday at 18 he was sitting across from me for the first time as an adult, and the richness of his recollections were beyond moving. As he becomes an adult it is more appropriate (with restraint on my part) to discuss some of his memories, many of which I played a part. We've only begun this process and I don't know if it will deepen or go further.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your instincts to provide greater protection to your kids won't go unnoticed to them. And they will change right in front of your eyes and become young adults. Each time they go through a developmental or meaningful milestone, they'll process their experiences in ways that are more nuanced, more insightful, more layered, more mature.

You are the emotional leader of your family. The professionals don't have as much skin in the game, even though they're ostensibly the experts.

Trust your instincts and keep moving cautiously toward what you think is best for your family, even if it kicks up a sh!tstorm.

My two cents plus some change 

[mama-wolf]

Clarity.  Did you guys ever do corporal punishment?  (trying to see if your ex can construct a weird argument how this was ok or "misheard")

No, corporal punishment has not been our approach except the occasional swat on the back of the diaper to get a toddler's attention.  That usually only happened when other attempts to redirect failed and there was a safety issue.   I know uBPDxw has spanked S6 a couple times when he was a little younger because she told me, but there's no real proof of any of it.

What I'm seeing is D10 is likely a 10 year old and where a normal adult could work through a 10 year old being 10, your pwBPD does threats and other crazy stuff.  This pushes 10 year old in wrong direction.

So in this scenario I just laid out I'm seeing a "normal" pwBPD get pushed into "rage" by a 10 year old, vice being a parent.  (do I have this about right?)

Yes, I'd say you have it right for the most part, but unfortunately there is an added dynamic where the parental relationship between D10 and uBPDxw is already seriously damaged.  This means that although D10 is generally a normal 10 year old and can manage her anxiety pretty well away from uBPDxw, she has serious and consistent difficulty when interacting with uBPDxw.  She isolates herself in her room as much as possible when at uBPDxw's house so that she doesn't have to interact with her, and sometimes refuses to eat while she is there.

So, the baseline is already strained for uBPDxw, and then if she does have a bad day or something else triggers her, the strained relationship with D10 is a seemingly natural place for that rage to go.  With her recent treatment in an intensive outpatient program, she has better tools to use when dealing with this, so the level of emotion seems to be in better control (at least for now).  But the impulsiveness in what she says or does is still troublesome and problematic for D10.  As is the trouble with consistently recognizing, respecting, and maintaining healthy boundaries.  And S6 is witnessing/experiencing it all the while, too.

I'm wondering if you should send a letter (something official) to your ex. 

An interesting idea.  I will defer to my L on what, when, and how to communicate about what's coming.

I am thinking if you wait too long to do a custody evalution and ask for more custody, you will have less chance of getting more custody.

I think this is a reasonable concern, zachira...thank you for sharing it--and for the support.

You have so many cooks in the kitchen, which is a good thing, but it also seems like everyone is trying to help the family function by giving a diagnosed BPD parent as much rope as possible, and in the meantime, the kids are suffering.

In a CE, you would have someone advocating specifically for the kids, who is also talking to the professionals, and will know (not guess) that there is a BPD dx.

Is that pretty accurate?

Thank you for chiming in, LnL...your perspective is always extremely helpful!  Unfortunately, there is no formal diagnosis of BPD that I am aware of.  I know my T is thoroughly convinced that my ex has BPD based on the years of behavior I have spoken about at length, and its impact on me.  But she has never met uBPDxw and can't diagnose her.  My T has also indicated the family T seems to be on the same page (I gave them permission to be in contact), though the family T is also not in a position to diagnose...says that's not her role given that uBPDxw sees her own individual T as well as a psychiatrist.

I find it really hard to believe that neither her T nor her psychiatrist have made the diagnosis, or at the very least that BPD dx was not an outcome of the days of group therapy at the IOP.  But I don't have a way to know right now unless she volunteers the information.

I wonder if your PC would agree to recommend the CE? That way you are not the target, and it would not add additional fire to the chronic conflict.

Unfortunately, the PC has made it clear that he does not intend to take action unless he feels it is absolutely necessary as a last resort.  However, based on my last communications with him, I have every reason to believe he would support a CE as soon as I file a motion to get things started.

I agree with you that the professionals' threshold for what they will allow to continue feels a little too high.  I also think they are too reluctant to be the ones to initiate a change...maybe because they think it is more my place to do so, I don't know.  I think one big reason may be the damage it would do to their ability to keep uBPDxw engaged in working with them.  I think they know she would completely split on them, meaning family therapy would be dead in the water, and the PC's role would be that much more difficult.  If I initiate a change, they would still be expected to offer their objective professional opinion.  uBPDxw has already heard what they have to say so it shouldn't be a surprise to her.  Even if she doesn't like it, there would still be a better chance of keeping her engaged on trying to improve her behaviors.  Maybe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your instincts to provide greater protection to your kids won't go unnoticed to them.

Thanks again...I'm trying to trust those instincts.  It's hard not to beat myself up for taking this long to start moving in that direction, and I feel like that's going to be something I'll have to work through with the kids some day (especially D10).  But better that than the alternative, I think!

mw

[kells76]

I wonder if your PC would agree to recommend the CE? That way you are not the target, and it would not add additional fire to the chronic conflict.

I agree with you that the professionals' threshold for what they will allow to continue feels a little too high.  I also think they are too reluctant to be the ones to initiate a change...maybe because they think it is more my place to do so, I don't know.  I think one big reason may be the damage it would do to their ability to keep uBPDxw engaged in working with them.  I think they know she would completely split on them, meaning family therapy would be dead in the water, and the PC's role would be that much more difficult.  If I initiate a change, they would still be expected to offer their objective professional opinion.  uBPDxw has already heard what they have to say so it shouldn't be a surprise to her.  Even if she doesn't like it, there would still be a better chance of keeping her engaged on trying to improve her behaviors.  Maybe.

I wonder if in a weird way, "keeping mama-wolf as the target" could be... I don't really know how to say it, but like you mentioned above, the "lesser of two evils" way to keep uBPDxw bought in to working with the professionals.

It's sad that the way she does things is that she has a target for her vitriol and then sort of works OK with other players.

You're already the target, and have been. If you can "stay as the target" then perhaps that is a tactic that would keep her "bought in" with the professionals as they get a CE going.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense... but I'm just wondering if there's a reason the professionals are sort of pushing you to be the one pulling the trigger. It seems like a reverse of the situation we often discuss here: "Kids, you have to spend this time with me and that time with Mom, because that's what the judge decided" -- the judge is the "target" of any anger or upset, but what needs to happen still happens. In your case, the roles might be that as soon as you request a CE, the professionals "just have to do it, their hands are tied" because a parent requested it. xW might rage and be upset, but the CE still happens and she still participates, because her rage is at you, not the team.

IDK... it's a way of looking at it.

[formflier]

You have so many cooks in the kitchen, which is a good thing, but it also seems like everyone is trying to help the family function by giving a diagnosed BPD parent as much rope as possible, and in the meantime, the kids are suffering.
 

This was really powerful.

Best,

FF

[mama-wolf]

I wonder if in a weird way, "keeping mama-wolf as the target" could be... I don't really know how to say it, but like you mentioned above, the "lesser of two evils" way to keep uBPDxw bought in to working with the professionals.

It's sad that the way she does things is that she has a target for her vitriol and then sort of works OK with other players.

You're already the target, and have been. If you can "stay as the target" then perhaps that is a tactic that would keep her "bought in" with the professionals as they get a CE going.

Hi kells...and yes, I think that is very likely what's happening.  When the kids complain about having to go to uBPDxw's, I have used the explanation of "that's what the judge says has to happen."  That was actually recommended by D10's T, so that it keeps the parents out of the argument with the child.

I feel like it's similar with me filing for a change in custody.  It keeps the professionals out of the line of fire from uBPDxw, who is essentially an emotional toddler.  I'm already the target, and will remain that way anyway, so it serves the overall need of keeping her engaged if I'm the one filing and asking for the change.

It sucks to be in that position, for sure.  I'm less insulated from the damage than a judge is insulated from a kid's anger.  But if it serves my kids' long-term health and well-being, I'll take the hit.  That's what therapy is for.

mw

[livednlearned]

I have grown convinced that the current custody arrangement is not in the kids' best interests (D10 and S6).

You mentioned the professionals involved might be behind this conviction. What in particular are the things that you would mention as cause for a CE?

I also know the sh*tstorm and complications in dealing with her as a co-parent it will cause if I just file for full custody--or anything other than 50/50

Sh*storms are effective tactics for bullies. You are a different person than you were. Do you think the bullying will seem different this time around?

Also, the sh*t storm seems to be on a low boil anyway, especially with the kids altho I know you're taking some hits.

I don't want to look like the "instigator" to the court, someone just trying to make trouble and take the kids away entirely.

You've given a valiant effort to work with professionals. I don't think you'll look like an instigator. I think you may have to say with conviction why it's not working, and especially why it's not working now with so many professionals involved.

The family therapist agreed with me yesterday that uBPDxw just keeps causing damage, and while she seems able to recognize it after the fact and apologize, the damage is still being done.  She said it would be far better to make a change that improves the quality of the kids' time with uBPDxw, even if it means a reduction in quantity.

Which could be the outcome of the custody evaluation recommendation. Your kids might do better with 3 hour visits every Sat and Sun. That's the arrangement that happened in our family, although it took a psychotic episode to get there. Not that it takes psychosis for the courts to budge. I suspect you have a similar cumulative amount of pro-mama wolf going on amongst the professionals.

I feel like requesting a custody evaluation would take me out of the equation as much as possible, and would show that I am open to an objective evaluation rather than just pushing for what I want.

You seem super reasonable and like a lot of us post-BPD relationship people here, agonizingly overly conscientious. To a fault.

A CE is a tool that courts use to figure out what's going. The professionals involved in your case don't want to be those instruments, they don't seem themselves as CEs. But that doesn't mean they won't speak their minds to a CE if it comes to that. The one outlier seems to be the PC who won't make a recommendation unless it's a last resort. What's he waiting for? I don't mean that rhetorically. I would want to know what he thinks has to happen for him to act. It might be worth trying to finesse things so that you can help him cover his professional butt so he doesn't fight for his opinion when another professionals starts to question him.

Also, as an afterthought. The in-patient (outpatient) treatment could be something you use as the catalyst.

And if you do file for a CE, it might be worth asking for a forensic psychiatrist to administer both the MMP-2 or whatever it's called. The one that gets used a lot here... maybe someone can chime in with the correct acronym. There is also a specific one for PDs that some members have come into contact with. Both have to be administered by professionals who are trained to administer them. Any shrink can evaluate someone but not all of them are trained to administer and analyze the specific instruments.

In many cases with CEs, there is an expectation that you will procure an expert witness to testify why a PD is rough for the kids. So finding out that your ex has BPD won't be the smoking gun. The difference in your case is that you have so many professional eyes on the situation that you already have expert witnesses. Even if they only talk to the CE and don't testify, you have their input.

A custody evaluation is a way to shine sunlight on our situations. I think you may need to have them reframed so that you don't feel guilty about doing something that is fairly standard in high-conflict divorces. Maybe try to put that guilt in a parking lot and deal with it when you have some peace of mind.  

[mart555]

I'll venture to say that "guilt" is what is preventing you from doing what is right, ie: protecting the kids.  I've been there, and am still somewhat there.  You feel guilty of even thinking of taking the kids away from her:  She'll be even more alone. It will make her life even more difficult.  Poor her.  How can you do that.  She doesn't deserve this. 

You aren't taking the kids away from her. You are protecting them. You don't want her to damage the kids.  I'm sure that they already have a though time navigating through all of this.  I have a 11 and 15yo boys.  The mom did messed up stuff in the last year (check my post history) and I used to want 50-50 "because it would be better for everyone".  My tune changed after a few months, I went for full custody with visitation right for the mom.  To say that she freaked out would be an understatement.  There were a few episodes and the last one was too much: she went way off the rails.  I decided to request supervised visitations only.  That was 4 months ago. She hasn't made a request since.   All I got was a lawyer's letter saying that she is a great mom and doesn't need supervision. 

Our kids did miss her.. but barely write to her.  When I remind them that they can send her an email, they say "yeah, maybe tomorrow".  They did send a few, when they missed her, but that was over quick.  They asked when they were going to see her, I said "I don't know but you can give her a call" and they said "no, I'd rather not call".   I used to push them, fearing that I'd be blamed for parental alienation but the worker from the children's aid society told me "she's the one that alienated herself" and she was right.   Yet I still sometimes feel like I should almost force the kids to write to their mom but at the same time that doesn't feel right.  The kids are happy with me, they enjoy the peaceful life.    They see a therapist once in a while and she expressed the same: the kids don't miss their mom.  Yet I still feel guilty of taking them away from her.. even though I know that I have to do it.   

I'm still barely in the court system however, so far from out of the woods... 

[mama-wolf]

You mentioned the professionals involved might be behind this conviction. What in particular are the things that you would mention as cause for a CE?

You've given a valiant effort to work with professionals. I don't think you'll look like an instigator. I think you may have to say with conviction why it's not working, and especially why it's not working now with so many professionals involved.

I would say that it's necessary because in spite of repeated feedback from the family therapist, the damaging behavior keeps happening with the kids.  Maybe some of it is not happening to the extent it was (like the erratic driving), but the impulsive behavior and inability to maintain healthy boundaries is perpetuating an environment that is pushing the kids towards mental health problems of their own (budding eating disorder for one, and OCD for the other).

Sh*storms are effective tactics for bullies. You are a different person than you were. Do you think the bullying will seem different this time around?

Also, the sh*t storm seems to be on a low boil anyway, especially with the kids altho I know you're taking some hits.

Need clarification here...are you saying they are effective tactics to use against bullies?  I don't actually think you're calling me a bully, but the wording (and my own anxiety) has me turned around.  Probably also because I never really thought of uBPDxw as bullying, even though she was.

And you are right that things are on a low boil right now, I think mostly because she thinks we have somewhat reached a state of stability...the PC is renewed, custody remains at 50/50 and I honestly believe she thinks there's no chance I would dare suggest otherwise at this point.  Things will definitely ratchet up once a Motion is filed.

You seem super reasonable and like a lot of us post-BPD relationship people here, agonizingly overly conscientious. To a fault.

Lol, yes...I get that even from my T.  I was really struggling for a while because I kept pushing myself to go longer between sessions.  I told my T that I felt like scheduling sessions too frequently for myself took up time that she could see other clients.  She looked at me and said in the most no-nonsense tone "I need you to get out of your own way."  That has definitely stuck with me. 

Also, as an afterthought. The in-patient (outpatient) treatment could be something you use as the catalyst.

I guess it is in a way.  She clearly recognized enough of a need to get evaluated and go through treatment.  And yet, in spite of some temporary improvement in certain areas, there have been some key, critical, core behaviors that remain in place.  This shows me that those behaviors will be resistant to all but the most intensive treatment, and even then there is no guarantee of change.  And meanwhile my children cannot be treated as a social experiment to see whether uBPDxw can at some point get her stuff together enough to not damage them further.

And if you do file for a CE, it might be worth asking for a forensic psychiatrist to administer both the MMP-2 or whatever it's called. The one that gets used a lot here... maybe someone can chime in with the correct acronym. There is also a specific one for PDs that some members have come into contact with. Both have to be administered by professionals who are trained to administer them. Any shrink can evaluate someone but not all of them are trained to administer and analyze the specific instruments.

Thank you for this reference.  I have gotten to the point where I really, really want a formal diagnosis of BPD on record.  At first, I resisted the idea because I worried that it could be damaging to uBPDxw professionally (not to mention personally).  I worried that by pursuing that, it would make it harder for her to build her business and/or seek other employment, further straining her ability to provide her share for the kids.  A holdover I guess of my caretaking tendencies from years of shielding her from the consequences of her choices and behavior.

With each day, I'm seeing that as less and less my problem.  It needs to be recognized, known, and fully factored into the decisions that affect my kids.  And if somehow she really and truly does not have BPD, but rather some combination of other mental health issues that includes BPD traits...well that should be known, too.  And I want it to be clear that it's not just my opinion--it's a decision supported by expert, impartial third parties.

Maybe try to put that guilt in a parking lot and deal with it when you have some peace of mind.  

I will try!

mw

[mama-wolf]

I'll venture to say that "guilt" is what is preventing you from doing what is right, ie: protecting the kids. 

Yes, mart555 you are exactly right.  It's FOG all over again.  Fear of her reactions and behaviors once filed.  A sense of obligation to help her help herself and to support a relationship between my kids and their other parent.  And absolutely guilt for the impact that my efforts to protect them will have on her.

My T jokingly calls my inner critic "Little uBPDxw," and she is so right.  Everything my inner critic has to say is exactly what uBPDxw would say to me...in her voice, too.  But she has done and continues to do this to herself.  I know it is hard to change, and am sure it is especially hard in her situation.  That doesn't change my ultimate responsibility to take care of my kids.

Thank you for sharing your experience.  I'm pretty sure D10 is ultimately going to want nothing to do with her based on all the damage that uBPDxw has already done too their relationship.  I worry for S6 especially, given his age and the fact that he is her biological child (adopted by me)...I think he will miss her more and want more contact with her, but also think that will fade over time.

mw

[livednlearned]

the impulsive behavior and inability to maintain healthy boundaries is perpetuating an environment that is pushing the kids towards mental health problems of their own (budding eating disorder for one, and OCD for the other).

I would flip this paragraph and start with the ED and OCD. "My kids are developing severe mental health issues -- we have a lot of professionals involved and ex is taking initiative to tend to her own mental health challenges with inpatient treatment. What is missing is a recommendation from an experienced CE whose specific role is to gauge whether the current custody order is hurting the kids and contributing to their extreme stress. I am not in a position to make that call so I ask the court to assign a CE so we can make sure these kids are emotionally safe given the schedule that's been in place. If anything, things seem to be getting worse based on their growing mental health problems."

Need clarification here...are you saying they are effective tactics to use against bullies?  I don't actually think you're calling me a bully, but the wording (and my own anxiety) has me turned around.

My god no! You are the opposite of a bully. I meant that having a fit is a way for a bully to get what he or she wants. And it's often effective until you recognize that it's not a tactic that we can afford to reward. Your ex's sh!tstorms have been an effective way to get people to fall in line. The kids can't stand up to her so you have to be the one.

I want it to be clear that it's not just my opinion--it's a decision supported by expert, impartial third parties.

I didn't do a CE in my case, but I did file a motion -- can't remember how it was phrased, but it was something about a medical evaluation. A forensic psychologist did the evaluation but there was no MMP2 involved (no objective diagnostic tool). It was a 12 page report and the last paragraph said something like, "A PD cannot be ruled out and it is recommended that n/BPDx seek further evaluation." I was upset that no dx came out of our process, but looking back at the report, it is beyond damaging. I was so fixated on seeing a label that I failed to recognize how chilling the psychologist's observations were. That influenced the judge.

The strangest thing is that n/BPDx gave permission for me to read it because he thought it was complimentary. Narcissism to that extent is truly a wonder.

Have you asked around about good CEs? If you start asking people, you'll start to hear the same names over and over. You can offer your ex the option of choosing which CE will assess, knowing that all three meet your standards. I've heard people say that the Clerk of Court can be a good resource, although they probably don't share opinions on quality.

What does your L say about doing a CE?

[formflier]

I would flip this paragraph and start with the ED and OCD. "My kids are developing severe mental health issues -- we have a lot of professionals involved and ex is taking initiative to tend to her own mental health challenges with inpatient treatment. What is missing is a recommendation from an experienced CE whose specific role is to gauge whether the current custody order is hurting the kids and contributing to their extreme stress. I am not in a position to make that call so I ask the court to assign a CE so we can make sure these kids are emotionally safe given the schedule that's been in place. If anything, things seem to be getting worse based on their growing mental health problems."
 

Reading this actually gets me to modify my recommendation a bit.  

I would take this and focus even more on the ex doing the work to "handle" her mental health issues.

It seems obvious that there was improvement when she was engaged and "backslid" when she got further from the intensive work.

So, I would recommend that you write a letter "demanding" (legal term of demand letter) that she commit to long term intensive therapy and that she reduces her current parenting time  and uses the additional time created to focus on improving her parenting skills.

This clearly keeps the focus on the kids and the two big issues on the table that a potential CE could evaluate and a court could rule on.

1.  Is there a correlation/causal relationship in mental health treatment and her parenting skills (impact on the children)?

2.  Is there an impact on her parenting time on children's mental health?

Perhaps a third related issue of ex "not having time" for such intensive treatment.

If she responds positively to the demand letter, then life is better for everyone.

If she doesn't, that provides a reasonable reason for Mama-wolf to involve courts and put her in as positive a light as possible when doing so.

Best,

FF

[mama-wolf]

I would flip this paragraph and start with the ED and OCD.

I would take this and focus even more on the ex doing the work to "handle" her mental health issues.

Sounds like a good approach, thank you both!  I do think it will be critical to 1) focus on the affect the situation is having on the kids, and 2) highlight--to the court at least--that the change in custody will further enable uBPDxw to work on getting better...if she can...to improve the quality of the kids' time with her.  I'll be sure to discuss with my L the best way to incorporate these.

My god no! You are the opposite of a bully. I meant that having a fit is a way for a bully to get what he or she wants. And it's often effective until you recognize that it's not a tactic that we can afford to reward. Your ex's sh!tstorms have been an effective way to get people to fall in line. The kids can't stand up to her so you have to be the one.

Thank you for the clarification...makes total sense, and I knew it was just my anxiety causing me trouble following you

Have you asked around about good CEs? If you start asking people, you'll start to hear the same names over and over.

What does your L say about doing a CE?

I haven't asked yet, and only just connected with my L today (she had been in a wreck last week and was out of the office for a few days).  In talking with my T about the possibility, she did say it would be very expensive for me if I pursued it on my own (and uBPDxw would have to consent), but if the judge ordered it instead, the cost would more likely be split between us.  So I'm OK with filing the motion for a change and expressing my willingness to have the evaluation if it seems necessary.

My L and I are set to connect early next week since I am out of town on a business trip at the moment.  Plus I told her I didn't want to file until at least late next week, because that would be at a time that the kids are scheduled to be with me for five days.  It would ensure uBPDxw has a few days to get herself back together--to whatever extent she is capable--after being notified of the motion.  Assuming we can move that quickly...

mw

[formflier]

My L and I are set to connect early next week since I am out of town on a business trip at the moment.  

Make sure and ask the question/raise the issue of a "demand letter".  I'm positive that phrase will cue the L in to what you are thinking and perhaps get some alternatives out on the table

Said another way...I doubt the final wording will be a "demand" (that's typically for money owed)...the point being you want your ex to do Y or else if Y isn't done in Z amount of time you will do ABC.

Likely a more conciliatory tone would be "if we are not able to reach terms for the reduction of parenting time to allow you to focus on intensive therapy, then I will ask for the courts opinion in this matter."

Something like that.

While it's unlikely that she would actually voluntarily do that, make sure you are ready and OK with her going "I agree"


Best,

FF

[kells76]

Likely a more conciliatory tone would be "if we are not able to reach terms for the reduction of parenting time to allow you to focus on intensive therapy, then I will ask for the courts opinion in this matter."

Or, perhaps, depending on how triggered she'd be, "...adjustment of parenting time..."

Just a thought...

[ForeverDad]

Have you read our site's Help topics for Boundaries?  Here's also my brief summary how boundaries are not for the ex, who resists them anyway, but for us.

[formflier]

Or, perhaps, depending on how triggered she'd be, "...adjustment of parenting time..."

Just a thought...

Absolutely a better word.   Tip of my hat to you.  Nice work!

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

How long does it typically take for someone to be notified of court proceedings?  H filed this summer, but it took almost 2 weeks for his ex to be served - so of course that happened the day she got SD12 back.

[formflier]

How long does it typically take for someone to be notified of court proceedings?  H filed this summer, but it took almost 2 weeks for his ex to be served - so of course that happened the day she got SD12 back.

Some states handle the notifying themselves and other state require the filer to provide "proof of service" (basically your legal time handles it).

So...it really depends.

Best,

FF

[mama-wolf]

Have you read our site's Help topics for Boundaries?  Here's also my brief summary how boundaries are not for the ex, who resists them anyway, but for us.

Hi FD, and thank you for the links!  Yes, I have read through that material before, but it's always good to go back and refresh the knowledge.

I have had much experience with uBPDxw's "extinction bursts" so I do expect them to come.  I'm not looking forward to the next few months as we try to get this settled because it's really going to ramp up her behavior.  I'm very thankful to have the PC in place, because he can help rein that behavior in.

How long does it typically take for someone to be notified of court proceedings? 

Good point worriedStepmom...I'm not quite sure, but will work with my L to figure this out.  Depending on the answer, I may even ask that the notice be served in person by her assistant to be sure of the timing (rather than guessing on mail delivery).  Her office is about a block from uBPDxw's office, so that would be relatively easy to do.

mw