Will she ever realize the truth?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion found here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339558.0

can you tell us more about this?

how many times did she cheat? how did you respond? what did she have to say about it?

3 times in 10 years.  Twice with her ex (once about 6 months into our relationship and then again about 3 years ago), the one before me and one other time (in the middle of that) with someone she met at the gym...that one was a 4 months emotional affair.

She said she was in such an emotionally bad place that it was a big F you to the world.  I have forgiven her and moved on, yet when we fight she brings it up and claims I've never forgiven her for sleeping with X and that's why we can't move forward.  I stand there dumbfounded because I don't bring it up, she does.  Then she talks about all the pain I have caused her and she can't forgive me.  And I sit there like, what pain?  I've never cheated, I've never left, I've never given her the silent treatment.  I have supported her through all of her endeavors, and there have been many.  Do I get angry and maybe raise my voice a little when she doesn't come home and doesn't tell me she won't be home, yes...but come on...I haven't done anything to break her trust, yet she says she can't trust her heart with me.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion found here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339558.0

can you tell us more about this?

how many times did she cheat? how did you respond? what did she have to say about it?

3 times in 10 years.  Twice with her ex (once about 6 months into our relationship and then again about 3 years ago), the one before me and one other time (in the middle of that) with someone she met at the gym...that one was a 4 months emotional affair.

She said she was in such an emotionally bad place that it was a big F you to the world.  I have forgiven her and moved on, yet when we fight she brings it up and claims I've never forgiven her for sleeping with X and that's why we can't move forward.  I stand there dumbfounded because I don't bring it up, she does.  Then she talks about all the pain I have caused her and she can't forgive me.  And I sit there like, what pain?  I've never cheated, I've never left, I've never given her the silent treatment.  I have supported her through all of her endeavors, and there have been many.  Do I get angry and maybe raise my voice a little when she doesn't come home and doesn't tell me she won't be home, yes...but come on...I haven't done anything to break her trust, yet she says she can't trust her heart with me.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

You're getting the hang of it.

Thank you!   

I'm trying.  It's not easy but I'm trying.  Patience is key!

SH4

[Birddog]

And I sit there like, what pain?  I've never cheated, I've never left, I've never given her the silent treatment.  I have supported her through all of her endeavors, and there have been many.  Do I get angry and maybe raise my voice a little when she doesn't come home and doesn't tell me she won't be home, yes...but come on...I haven't done anything to break her trust, yet she says she can't trust her heart with me.

These things used to drive me up the wall, now I am like oh, really, please?  I know it’s not probably helpful, but am somehow amused by the lengths a pwBPD will go to prop up a distortion.

[Stillhopeful4]

"Prop up a distortion"  I never looked at it like that before...hmmmmmmmmm

[Birddog]

"Prop up a distortion"  I never looked at it like that before...hmmmmmmmmm

 

I have forgiven her and moved on, yet when we fight she brings it up and claims I've never forgiven her for sleeping with X and that's why we can't move forward.  I stand there dumbfounded because I don't bring it up, she does.  Then she talks about all the pain I have caused her and she can't forgive me.

I've been here so many times: 
She won't let you, let alone consider the fact you have forgiven her umpteen years ago so she can say you are STILL mad at her,
and since you are mad at her,
you are hurting her,
now she has(or needs) a convenient excuse to leave and exit the scene.

Enabler already covered it earlier:

Feelings = Facts and typically those feelings are strong and binary. I either love it or I hate it... you're either the best or the worst. Due to that lack of grey.

When I see it coming now, I am like, really? Is this really necessary? Isn't there a better way already?

[once removed]

you probably know by now that shame is closely associated with BPD traits. its also associated with trying to avoid feelings of shame.

cheating is seriously stigmatized. there are many, many people that cheat, but ive never met a person who described it as a good thing, something that should be encouraged.

so most people that have done it experience shame as a result. shame separates us from others. in some ways, it can separate us from ourselves, the person we want to be, the person we are, and deep down, the things about ourselves that we dont like.

it is incredibly damaging in relationships. its rare that couples recover, though it does happen.

i suppose that what im getting at is that even if you managed to forgive and move on (i think its worth examining if you have and to what extent), that doesnt mean that she has.

if you see yourself, really see yourself, as fundamentally a bad person, you wouldnt trust the love of another person. maybe youd think they had ulterior motives. maybe youd think there was something wrong with them. love, in some ways, could be invalidating. because you believe its not something you deserve.

for someone with these kind of deep seated beliefs, cheating isnt necessarily "i did a bad thing, it doesnt mean im a bad person, it doesnt mean i cant love or am undeserving of it, im going to make amends, learn from it, not repeat it". its confirmation of "i did a bad thing, i am a bad person, it means i cant love and am undeserving of it".

Do I get angry and maybe raise my voice a little when she doesn't come home and doesn't tell me she won't be home, yes...

and every time you did, its a reminder of what she did and the shame she harbors. and part of offloading shame is dumping it on you.

this is a deeper problem in your marriage than perhaps you are giving it credit for.  

[Stillhopeful4]

When I see it coming now, I am like, really? Is this really necessary? Isn't there a better way already?

Birddog,

I agree.  There has to be a better way to address this, but how?

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

for someone with these kind of deep seated beliefs, cheating isnt necessarily "i did a bad thing, it doesnt mean im a bad person, it doesnt mean i cant love or am undeserving of it, im going to make amends, learn from it, not repeat it". its confirmation of "i did a bad thing, i am a bad person, it means i cant love and am undeserving of it".

Part of it is her definition.  She doesn't believe it was cheating.  One of the times she just up and moved out and has sex with her x a few days later.  She claims "we weren't together so it doesn't count as "cheating".

this is a deeper problem in your marriage than perhaps you are giving it credit for.  

It very well could be.  I'm really trying hard to examine everything.  This process is not easy.

SH4

[Enabler]

She doesn't believe it was cheating

Again... she's going to great lengths to keep fantasy (she was on a break and therefore it wasn't infidelity) and reality (it was infidelity) apart.

somehow amused by the lengths a pwBPD will go to prop up a distortion.

Why?... Rule #2 of BPD - "If I do something I feel is wrong, I am unworthy of living. Therefore, admitting I am wrong - or that I did something to hurt someone - feels like committing suicide. I don't want to die, so I can't acknowledge that I am wrong. Even to the judges inside me."

[Stillhopeful4]

Again... she's going to great lengths to keep fantasy (she was on a break and therefore it wasn't infidelity) and reality (it was infidelity) apart.

Yes, I get that, but do you think at some point she will realize?

It really irks me she talks so much about values and that me and my boys don't respect her values (because I don't take the car...phone...their life away when she thinks I should).  Her biggest value she claims is respect and she never feels respected.  How can her biggest value be respect if she can have several affairs?  Doesn't NOT having an affair involve respect?

SH4

[Birddog]

It really irks me she talks so much about values and that me and my boys don't respect her values (because I don't take the car...phone...their life away when she thinks I should).  Her biggest value she claims is respect and she never feels respected.  How can her biggest value be respect if she can have several affairs?  Doesn't NOT having an affair involve respect?

My T asked me what my kids understood about respect in last session.  Said she would like us to get on the same page with this.  She said age 15-16 is where most fully understand.  T said when she asks couples,  they are completely lost, when the kids are ask, they quickly say it is taught by someone outside the family.

After session, talked to both 10 and 12 year old what they thought respect was.  The 10 year old had little understanding,  the 12 year old said they were teaching in school.  Told her the part about 15-16 is about where it is understood, and she said they really needed to teach it earlier, basically lay a foundation. Also talked to SO about T's comments, what she thought.  I think we are to a little closer understanding. See this as something that is going to take time though dialogue, trial and error, I see no magic bullet here in getting there in one step. None of our issues happened overnight.

[Enabler]

Yes, I get that, but do you think at some point she will realize?

It really irks me she talks so much about values and that me and my boys don't respect her values (because I don't take the car...phone...their life away when she thinks I should).  Her biggest value she claims is respect and she never feels respected.  How can her biggest value be respect if she can have several affairs?  Doesn't NOT having an affair involve respect?

SH4

It seems that it often takes a complete life low for someones fantasy and reality to truly merge. At this point the individual has absolutely no choice other than death to accept the truth about their persona. So no, I'm not sure there is any real incentive for her to realise that there is a huge void between her fantasy and reality. Each case is different but this strikes me as a case where she had every opportunity and incentive to accept the truth yet and came so close when details and facts were evident... but still chose to keep the two apart. Weirdly, and I am sure she wouldn't have realised this at the time, it would have been beneficial for her AND you if she had have made herself accountable for infidelity.

I would imagine that if you asked you wife whether or not she showed you and the kids respect she would paint her respectful behaviour in the whitest of white paint and exclaim how respectful and honourable she was in all situations. Similar to the examples above, this again is...

somehow amused by the lengths a pwBPD will go to prop up a distortion.

How dare you be so disrespectful to me since I am soo respectful of you? It's a bit like a couple at a restaurant, she leans over and has a taster of his food, he reciprocates and tries to have a taster of hers and she stabs him in the hand with her fork protesting how dare you steal my food... ! It looks like double standards, and it is, but in my view it comes from a distorted view of the thing they just did which they've instantly re-framed to be different to the identical thing you're doing to them... all to prop up the distorted view of themselves and their "wrongness".

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Enabler,

That makes so much sense and is exactly it.  So the reality is she will never see the truth, just her distorted version?
Ughhhh this is so hard.

SH4

[Enabler]

She will only see the truth when seeing the truth is either the only thing left to see or that it is beneficial for her to see the truth... I'm using your words. I like to break things down a bit and I might get a bit philosophical here...

Fantasy / Delusion - What we believe is The Truth based on cognitive distortions, internal deceit, delusions. Note - Fantasy is almost universally different for 2  people and "Folie a deux" is very very very rare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

Reality - What we SHOULD reasonably expected to believe based on our experiences, facts we have had at our disposal, evidence and other peoples interactions with us. Note for many Fantasy and Reality might be VERY close together, but we all tell ourselves little lies. Note - reality CAN be different for 2 different people.

The Truth - comprised of a set of facts about an event, includes all feelings, actions and causal inputs and ALWAYS makes complete sense. Note - The Truth is almost universally never known by anyone on the very basis that it's far far far too complicated and most people do not have complete awareness with which to construct the truth, nor would any contributor to the Truth agree with the findings of the Truth as they'd prefer to agree with their own Reality... but, we can get pretty close to it.

In a court of law people say they are seeking the truth, actually they are seeking the best and most fitting version of reality which aligns to the facts and evidence they see before them. The court may never fully ascertain The Truth since the defendant may never willingly offer up important motivations with which to establish parts of the picture which is part of the picture of The Truth.

Sorry... 

I had to accept in a T session a month ago that even if my W and I did reconcile, the likelihood of me being told The Truth by her about her activities is very very slim. I may well receive some version which would likely be watered down, but unlikely to hear everything. This is why a relationship is formed on trust, because we as complicated but NOT all seeing all hearing God-like creatures and cannot know the full truth and have to Trust the void, we trust that which we don't know and we Trust the picture our partners paint for us... and when that Trust shatters... well... we question our own realities and that's painful. I have grieved the death of the security I had in the reality I once knew but now believe to be a fantasy. I grieved the loss of the future I projected out from the solid foundation of my fictitious reality which was in fact complete delusion. Accepting these things has been difficult, but, if I want to live an integral life where my fantasy and reality have minimal distance... I have no choice but to accept this new evidence and merge it into my reality.

We went deep, dark and dirty there... it's a Friday, we should be talking about beer and fun

Enabler   

[Stillhopeful4]

We went deep, dark and dirty there... it's a Friday, we should be talking about beer and fun

You sure did.  That was way too much for my brain on a Friday afternoon!  But it will give me something to pinder on my lonely weekend.  Try and have a good one!

SH4

[once removed]

It really irks me she talks so much about values and that me and my boys don't respect her values (because I don't take the car...phone...their life away when she thinks I should)

are the boys yours, or both of yours?

[Enabler]

Hope you had a great weekend, sorry to fry your brain on Friday but I do think it’s one of those important things to get your head around such that you start to understand how she can utterly wholeheartedly believe something you think is completely absurd.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

are the boys yours, or both of yours?

Yes, the boys are both mine.  I also have a daughter and she has a daughter that she adopted from her x.

[Stillhopeful4]

Hope you had a great weekend, sorry to fry your brain on Friday but I do think it’s one of those important things to get your head around such that you start to understand how she can utterly wholeheartedly believe something you think is completely absurd.

Enabler

I have a pretty big update from the weekend.

She came to his game on Friday even though he wasn't playing so we did get to chat for a little bit.  Then she dropped off the dog to me Saturday morning and we chatted a little then as well.  She did have a little bit of a meltdown, but texted me after an apologized for that.  Seems as if she's been reaching out and texting me more.  Then on Sunday morning when she came to get the dog she brought me a little smelly thing for my car.  We had a long talk and we both cried a lot.  But it's the stuff she was saying that's she's realizing.  Like she blames her dad and her brother for leaving her when she was younger and she had to grow up so independently and that she's didn't know how to be in a family before that's why she would just not call if she was going out with friends causing me to accuse her of keeping secrets.  She said she thought moving out would help her feel better, but it doesn't...she didn't want the life we had, but she sure doesn't want what she has now.  She said she knows we are in two different places and she knows I want us to work it out, but she doesn't know how or if we ever will be able to.  She doesn't know what she's feeling right now, still.  I told her I'm afraid when she figures it she might realize she doesn't/didn't love me.  She looked at me and said she doesn't think that's it because if she doesn't/didn't this wouldn't be so hard and wouldn't hurt so much.  She was there for a little over an hour.  It was a hard talk but it was nice and when she left we are on good terms.  She sent me a few dog pics during the day, then I had to drop something off to her at night.. I went in, she was very quiet...barely said anything...it was odd.  Then last night, no texts, no pictures...nothing.  I'm just laying low.  Letting her process what she's feeling and trying not to push her at all.

Thoughts?

SH4

[Enabler]

That's good that she's starting to have a small amount of introspection. As I said about T, it's a bit like an onion and that's one of the easy layers that she might have peeled off. You got a little push afterwards, that's to be expected. She might push a little harder to make herself believed... absorb it with a little push back or neutrality. As you said, let her process things, let her get comfortable with her new onion minus a layer, she might feel slightly more vulnerable and might feel uncomfortable with that vulnerability.

It's far deeper than "not knowing" how to act in a family. Bare with it though and validate the valid parts parts of it... which isn't that this is the be all and end all of her dysfunctional behaviour.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

It's far deeper than "not knowing" how to act in a family. Bare with it though and validate the valid parts parts of it... which isn't that this is the be all and end all of her dysfunctional behavior.

She did say something a little off...she said that she's such an emotional mess because of "the marriage".  I found that weird because she was saying all of this about her FOO, but then blamed the way she's feeling on our marriage?

Thoughts?

[Birddog]

I don’t think it’s off to say she is stressed by marriage.

You both come from different FOOs, and they still have a strong grip over both your Psyche.


 I am reading through “Toxic Parents”, I identify with the lost childhood  And had the absent parents. My spouse in contrast had over controlling parents.

When I visited her family, she had strong desire to go see them, but after she came through the door and checked in, all she wanted to do was escape, see friends, do something fun.

With mine, one of last things to go was the family meal, or a 1-2 week camping trip, spend focused time. This is what I valued most in a relationship. This kind of focus time drives my wife absolutely up the wall.

Trying to meld those two experiences stresses my wife out. I’ve been trying to find creative ways to meld those two experiences. When my spouse is stressed, she goes with what she knows, runs, hides, becomes the high schooler again signed up for 15 clubs just to escape.

So I think having awareness of SOs FOO helps us  make more sensitive and informed choices, maybe can find common bond, take strengths from both, show your SO some compassion and understanding in new light.

[Enabler]

Hiya,

Building on what Birddog said, the marriage or even the relationship acts a metaphorical cage for some. I know it does for my W. She feels trapped by many things in life, I guess we all do in many respects but she feels this feeling more intensely. Someone wrote me a wonderful piece a year or so back called 'the cage'. This is an extract from it:

Now this creature was born in a cage - the cage you talked about earlier. And the stuff it was born craving is outside the cage, and the creature gets fed on scraps of the stuff, but it can't possess what it craves. How does it feel about that? It rages and cries and sulks and worries and thinks all the time about how to get hold of more and bigger scraps and/or how to get out of the cage. It resents the cage for being there. It might do active things like chewing the bars or passive things like drooping in a corner. If the cage is strong enough and the creature is hopeless enough it might start doing things like biting itself.

Who's responsible for the cage? Well, for a young person still in the charge of their family it might be their parents. So if they wanted to get the creature out of the cage they could for example run away. Some people might decide that God is responsible for the cage because He made that commandment about adultery, or decide that their church is responsible for the cage because it made particular rules about relationships. So they could abandon the faith or find a more liberal church to get the creature out of the cage. Your W and the OM don't have that option because their faith is actually part of this creature's identity. Some people might think they themselves are responsible for the cage, in Christina Rossetti's poem the protagonist seems to have done this at least partly. But in your W's case, Enabler, I think the only option she had was to make you responsible.

So what can you do as the person responsible for the cage? You already said you tried asking your W to stop feeding the creature and let it die. That's a legitimate ask and you had a right to do it, but as she seems to be very involved with this creature I can see how she could have experienced that as abusive. The action you said you're currently taking seems to me to be the kindest approach after that, of opening the cage door and standing back a bit and seeing what the creature does.

Why is it still lurking in the cage chewing the bars and scowling at you? I don't know. It was born in the cage, and maybe on some level it is anxious about what will happen on the outside or feels it ought to be in the cage (or not to be at all). From what you said, it actually seems to want you to just dismantle the cage around it so that you are the one that set it free. Your W can also be having more logical thoughts about your family situation and her obligations that are helping her keep the creature in the cage for now. She still doesn't have to ever let it out and could still decide to forsake it. The creature is not the whole of her, although it makes her feel like it is. It's a thing with an independent lifecycle but that is tied into her biology. Who knows what your W and the creature between them will end up choosing to do.

The quote was regarding my W having an affair with a man at Church, but really it doesn't necessarily need to be an affair, it could be anything, anything outside the bars of marriage and the relationship. My W see's me as the gate keeper to her cage, I am not. In the words of someone in Rogue One

“There is more than one sort of prison, Captain, I sense that you carry yours wherever you go.”

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Thanks for your insight Birddog & Enabler.

The creature in the cage bit, I can see my W looking at it like that.  So sad, all I want is for her to be herself, not keep her in a cage.

This process is so hard.  My feelings wax and wane.  Some days I feel so strong and that I can do this and support her and other days I get so angry because she's left me so many times, physically and emotionally, how do I trust this isn't going to keep happening for the rest of my life.

Today is an angry day.

Thank you all for listening and letting me vent and giving me such great advise.

SH4

[Enabler]

Morning,

You've touched on a couple of good points here.

Sometimes I think they say this stuff just to make up a reason to leave.  Like how can they say they feel smothered if we aren't smothering them.  And things like this relationship caused me to lose who I am.

Lets break this down... firstly I don't think either of these reasons are made up. To be 'made up' it would have to be contrary to their Fantasy...

Fantasy / Delusion - What we believe is The Truth based on cognitive distortions, internal deceit, delusions.

Since people believe their Fantasy is the truth, and this fantasy can be some distance away from reality, she can believe things that are not at all aligned with her reality.

Her feelings (which aren't necessarily based on structured facts and rational thinking, make her FEEL like she is smothered. "Relationships" in general could make her feel smothered. She could probably be married to someone in a coma and 'Feel' smothered by them. Responsibility could give her the perception of being smothered. Similarly, she likely never knew who she was, or only thought she knew for fleeting moments. Her feelings in a relationship lead her to enmesh herself with you in the relationship which means she loses her sense of self even more. I have noticed how my wife adopts other peoples taste in music and then makes out that she's liked that music for a lifetime. She even adopts peoples laughs. She tries on other peoples tastes like hats in a shop.

Your W built this cage based on her feelings, that doesn't mean the cage is real... but it is real FOR HER IN HER FANTASY.

Enabler 

[Stillhopeful4]

she likely never knew who she was, or only thought she knew for fleeting moments. Her feelings in a relationship lead her to enmesh herself with you in the relationship which means she loses her sense of self even more. I have noticed how my wife adopts other peoples taste in music and then makes out that she's liked that music for a lifetime. She even adopts peoples laughs. She tries on other peoples tastes like hats in a shop.
Your W built this cage based on her feelings, that doesn't mean the cage is real... but it is real FOR HER IN HER FANTASY.

Enabler,

Yes...this is exactly it.  And until she realizes it she won't be able to set herself free from that cage!

I need to add to the "my wife adopts other peoples..." !  Wow, mine too, she clings onto certain people and suddenly she wants to do all the things they are doing and she goes all in with doing everything (like every free minute of her time) with them and wants to be like them.  This lasts for about a month then she gets bored and stops (this is where my jealousy came from).  She wasn't doing anything sexual, but to me it was like you are leaving your wife and family behind and hoping on board with this other family and spending all of your time with them for a few weeks...I didn't think that was normal.  She does.  IE going to the other person's kid's sports games and not going to our kids, going home from work on a Friday and not calling me or texting and going to the other family's house for dinner and a few drinks...

I'm struggling hard lately, I love her so much and want this to work, but I'm starting to ask myself...if she will never see it, even if I use all the tools, she's still going to do this stuff I don't agree with and WHY do I want this for the rest of my life...sighhhhhhhhh

SH4

[Enabler]

If you would like a technical term for it, it's call 'Idealising'. When you met your wife, you too were likely idealised, it's pretty powerful... it's as though you were meant to be together, like soul mates. Since your W was likely mirroring everything you did it's common for people to think they were 'cut from the same cloth'. The Non often feels like they've met someone they instantly click with. Funnily, people who know the pwBPD think "hey, they're all of a sudden acting completely differently", however for the new person they have little in the way of reference points so just see this new person for who they are at the time... a mirror image of themselves.

For the pwBPD I believe they see the individual and the things that the individual represents as the elixir to their happiness. Everything about that person is so white and perfect and brilliant. They raise expectations of this person soo high their expectations soon exceed that persons (who's blissfully aware of the expectations the pwBPD has on them) ability... and crash. Often the crash and disappointment that the idealised person does not meet expectations, is met with devaluation, taking that person from the best, to the worse for no determinable reason.  

I get you're in a bit of an emotional rollercoaster at the moment. You're approaching the point called radical acceptance. You're radically accepting your W for who she is, not splitting her into 2 bits, BPD bits and non-BPD bits, you're accepting that she is one person who has BPD traits. This is a challenge because as part of this level of acceptance you will/have realised that she is unlikely to come to some sort of dawning realisation on her own that she needs help. You now see that without significant reprogramming she is unlikely to change. That said, you are also understanding that there are things you can do to change the dynamic... BUT... you're never going to have the relationship you thought you were going to have. You have to mourn this loss, it's massive, it's painful... BUT, you have choices ahead of you. You can push for reuniting knowing what you know, or you can walk away. Both are huge, only one of those options is completely under your control. Both choices have consequences and a range of probable outcomes.

All said, it's great to radically accept your situation... but as far as choices go, that's not for now. Time... give it time, you're pretty fresh, you're going through the grief process for her moving out. Nothing is going to change overnight and your emotions will rapidly cycle as your emotions are hot. This is not the time for mega choices. Sit with yourself and explore your pain, explore your thoughts.

Enabler

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339800.msg13078709#msg13078709

Thank you.