Question about narcissism

[kma79]

I just posted a question a bit ago, but I just remembered another one...

Is it at all common for a narcissist to claim to have too much empathy? I've read that narcissists lack empathy, but I was wondering if that is ever a trait that they claim to have more empathy than most other people?

Also, is it at all common for a narcissist to claim that most people they know are narcissists?

[gotbushels]

kma79   

Is it at all common for a narcissist to claim to have too much empathy?

It may be more likely that a narcissistic person will have an exaggerated sense of personal talents. Their definition of empathy may fall inside that set of exaggerations.

I've read that narcissists lack empathy, but I was wondering if that is ever a trait that they claim to have more empathy than most other people?

I don't think there's a list of traits they prefer more than others. I expect narcissistic people (with or without high levels of empathy) would probably tend toward overestimating their level of empathy.

Also, is it at all common for a narcissist to claim that most people they know are narcissists?

I don't recall seeing anything like this. My closest thought is that the narcissist is attempting to devalue others whom he or she is envious of by claiming that "most people" they know are narcissists.

I'm not very familiar with NPD. Hoping someone will come in here.

How is this affecting your life kma79?

[kma79]

Thanks gotbushels! That makes sense that they may be trying to devalue others by claiming everyone else is a narcissist and that they tend to overestimate their qualities-even their own levels of empathy.

I was just wondering about this because my BPD mom has narcissistic traits with a few questionable exceptions that I have been wondering about. In particular, she claims to have more empathy than most other people and she says that most people she encounters in life are narcissists.

Thanks again for the response! 

[ProudDad12]

So I'm not an expert on narcissism, but my wife's background is in psychology and we both strongly suspect my uBPD mom has strong narcissistic traits. That said, here are a few observations about my mom:

1) She's very humble, and she's not afraid for you to know it!
2) She's very generous, and she wants you to know that too!
3) She makes a lot of passive aggressive FB posts about narcissists.
4) A few weeks ago, when backed into a corner with my aunt who had just systematically dissected and responded to my mom's long scathing email point for point, her response was to call my aunt an evil narcissist.

Based on the first two, I don't think it's a stretch at all to throw empathy in there. In fact, you can't talk to my mom about any problem you're having without her countering with her own worse problems. I can see that be twisted as empathy.

And the last two parts are self explanatory . Like I said, I'm far from an expert here, but from my own unofficial observations I can definitely see the answers to your questions being yes.

[zachira]

You have some good questions about narcissism that are similar to other questions often asked about narcissists. Narcissists are certainly very confusing with how they put a person on a pedestal, which can last for a short period of time or many years, and then at some point start to devalue that person with terrible put downs and mean behaviors. Narcissists do use their abilities to read people at certain levels to take advantage of them. Narcissists also seem to know who to target and who to stay away from. In response to your questions: I would say that narcissists consider themselves superior to others in many ways, and saying that they have more empathy than other people sounds like something a narcissist would say. I am not sure about how to answer your second question. I have heard that one of the clues that a person is actually a narcissist is for them to brag about being a narcissist. In that case, maybe the narcissist would say that he/she only associates with other narcissists. Certainly most narcissists do not understand the real meaning of what a narcissist really is. They certainly don't accept the inner feelings of emptiness and inferiority as part of what they consider to be a narcissist. For the narcissist, being a narcissist is only about being superior to other people.

[kma79]

Thanks ProudDad12 and zachira!

ProudDad12, those observations about your mom are vert similar to my own mom. She also lets everyone know how humble and giving she thinks she is, and she does the passive aggressive FB posts as well. My mom also seems to be consumed with talking about other people she thinks might be narcissists. Thanks again for your response.

Zachira, that sounds very familiar with how they put a person on a pedestal, and then start to devalue them after time. That is certainly what has happened with my mom, but in a cycle that has repeated with different amounts of time in between over the years. Thanks so much for your response!

[sklamath]

Hi, kma79! Your questions struck a chord with me, as my mom has a lot of BPD and NPD traits. As a covert/introverted type, she doesn't come across as a stereotypical narcissist. Instead, there's a lot of self-deprecation and false humility, designed to elicit reassurance and praise. It is very common for her to pick a fight, then make a show of how injured and "sensitive" she is--and how "nasty" and "vicious" others are when they disagree with her or defend their boundaries.

My understanding is that behind the narcissist's facade--whether overt or covert--there really is a fragile sense of self and lack of self-esteem. The image my mother needs to project to the world is that she is humble and empathetic, and she will use any opportunity to remind others of this. Narcissists believe they are in some way superior to others, and for her it is a sense of moral superiority under her religious beliefs. She has visceral schadenfreude when someone's sin seems to cause their misfortune. 

As for the question of whether narcissists accuse others of being narcissists, I would say yes--even if the word "narcissist" was not part of my mother's vocabulary. Growing up, there were so many people about whom she would say, "They just think they're better than other people." And while that may be true about some people, she seemed to say it about nearly everyone. She typically would not pursue friendships with confident, healthy people; friendships she did have with them didn't tend to last long before the other party saw red flags, set boundaries, and let the friendship fade. So I think it was a way of protecting herself against rejection.

[Panda39]

Hi kma79,

I pulled a link from the site library that is a comparison/discussion of NPD and BPD that you might find interesting...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

When I started trying to figure out what was going on with my Partner's ex we first thought Narcissist but it didn't completely fit then we discovered BPD and that seemed to be the better fit over all.  But both are "Cluster B" Personality disorders so I've often thought (in my completely non-professional opinion) that the two overlapped some.

You will sometimes hear "Cluster B" personality disorders around here because the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition: DSM-5 puts certain personality disorders into clusters. 



Panda39

[Turkish]

Sounds like projection going on. My mother loved to diagnose people with BPD.  She may have also been right a lot.

I found this from Dr. Craig Childress. The context is discussing parental alienation, but it seems a good explanation of BPD and NPD.
 

This Sunday I will be on Kristi Beck's show, Mommy Interrupted to answer all your questions.

https://www.facebook.com/mommyinterruptedradioshow/

If you haven't already sent your questions to Kristi, send them along.

The attachment-related pathology of "parental alienation" is created in the personality pathology of your ex-spouse.  Their personality pathology was created in their own childhood attachment trauma that led to their overwhelming feelings of core self-inadequacy.

The core beliefs of the narcissistic and borderline personality are that, "I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I will be rejected (abandoned) because of my inadequacy."

The narcissistic personality tries to ward off their deep and primal feelings of profound inner emptiness caused by their fundamental inadequacy-of-being by adopting a narcissistic veneer of grandiose superiority.  They devalue others to minimize the threat posed by rejection and to elevate themselves relative to the devalued other... ."I'm not inadequate; YOU are."

At their core, they are a fragile and inadequate little child.  They expand and roar to terrorize us because they are a frightened little child, a hurt and abused child who is terrified and alone and inadequate.

Puncture the narcissistic defense with criticism or rejection, and they collapse into the dark abyss of their core-self inadequacy, triggering a narcissistic rage in which they seek to restore their narcissistic defense against their profound inner emptiness, by making YOU the inadequate person who is being rejected.

Narcissistic personality: "I'm not the inadequate one, you are.  I'm not the rejected one, you are."

The borderline personality, on the other hand, is more psychologically exposed. The borderline personality does not have the narcissistic defense of grandiosity to ward off the inner emptiness of their core-self inadequacy.  The borderline personality feels the pain of their fundamental inadequacy constantly.  So they need constant - constant - reassurances of love from the attachment figure in order to ward off a collapse into the abyss of their inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation.

The borderline personality creates constant drama to acquire the continual attention and involvement of the attachment figure that's needed to ward off the collapse into the abyss of inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation.  Even minor failures by the attachment figure to provide the attention and involvement needed to ward off the collapse into the immensely painful abyss of inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation are met with a borderline rage; tantrums of venomous anger and depressive collapses into despair.

Life with the narcissist is hard. Their vacancy of inner substance creates an empty intimacy in the marriage, and their devaluing of others to support their narcissistic defense leads to the continual emotional and psychological abuse of their spouse as being inadequate.  Eventually, the normal-range spouse has had enough.  The normal-range spouse can no longer endure the profound emptiness of the relationship and the constant emotional and psychological abuse from the narcissistic spouse.

The narcissist thereby creates the very thing they most fear - rejection by the attachment figure ("I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I'm going to be rejected because of my inadequacy".

The rejection of the divorce triggers the collapse of the narcissistic personality into the abyss of their core-self inadequacy, and they then seek to restore their narcissistic defense (and get revenge on the "inadequate" attachment figure) by using the child as a weapon and a tool to make it the normal-range targeted parent who is the rejected and inadequate parent (person/(spouse)... ."I'm not the inadequate one, you are.  I'm not the rejected one, you are."

Similarly, the spouse of the borderline personality eventually becomes exhausted by the intense emotional neediness and constant drama created by the borderline spouse.  The borderline personality thereby also creates the very thing they fear - abandonment by the attachment figure because of the fundamental inadequacy of the borderline personality.

The borderline personality responds by taking sole possession of the coveted children, both as a symbol that the borderline parent is not inadequate but is instead the ideal, all-wonderful, adored and never-to-be-abandoned parent (person/(spouse), and also to engage the continual attention and involvement of the (abandoning) ex-spouse who can never fully divorce (abandon) the borderline spouse as long as the borderline parent has full possession of the children, and because of all the drama created surrounding custody and visitation with the children.  The continual drama created surrounding custody and visitation forever requires the constant focus of the ex-spouse on the borderline personality parent-spouse.

The borderline personality is a master at manipulation.  And the quickest way to achieve sole possession of the children - irrespective of court orders for child custody - it through an allegation of child abuse to CPS.  The mere allegation results in an investigation that immediately terminates the targeted parent's involvement with the children.  The borderline personality parent manipulates CPS to achieve immediate sole possession of the children.

During the three to six months of CPS investigation, the borderline parent works their manipulative psychological control on the children, so that by the end of the CPS investigation the post-divorce "parental alienation" process is well under way.

In some (many) cases, the borderline parent will use the children to interfere with the new remarriage of the ex-spouse by having the children reject the new spouse (often with the allegation that the targeted parent isn't spending enough one-on-one time with the children, and that's why the children are rejecting the targeted parent).  This is designed to make the targeted parent choose between the new marriage and the children, thereby disrupting the bonding in the new marriage.

The narcissistic and borderline personalities (they are variants of the same core) are the products of childhood emotional and psychological abuse that created the core beliefs:  I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I will be rejected (abandoned) because of my inadequacy.  They are psychologically and emotionally abused children who are all grown up.

Their love and bonding system - the attachment system - is damaged by the psychological trauma of their childhood. They are incapable of navigating the complexity of adult intimacy, because they are abused children all grown up.  They fail at intimacy, they are rejected and abandoned, and they collapse into the trauma of their abuse histories - their core self inadequacy and their defense against the abyss of their inner emptiness and despair.

They use the child and create the conflict as a cry for help;  ":)on't abandon me to the abyss of my profound inner emptiness."

The pathology of "parental alienation" represents the trans-generational transmission of attachment trauma from the childhood of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent to the current family relationships, mediated by the personalty pathology of the allied narcissistic/(borderline) parent that is itself a product of this parent's childhood attachment trauma.

This is an attachment-related pathology, requiring professional expertise in the attachment system.  This is a personality disorder related pathology, requiring professional expertise in the development and manifestation of personality disorder pathology in family relationships. This is a family relationship pathology, requiring professional expertise in family systems dynamics.  This is a trauma pathology, requiring professional expertise in the trans-generational transmission of developmental trauma.

Children and families experiencing "parental alienation" (AB-PA) represent a special population (a professional designation) who require specialized professional knowledge and expertise to competently assess, diagnose, and treat.

Failure to possess the necessary professional knowledge and expertise in the attachment system, personality disorder pathology, family systems therapy, and developmental trauma that is needed to competently assess, diagnose, and treat this special population of children and families would represent practice beyond the boundaries of professional competence in violation of Standard 2.01a of the APA ethics code.

Mental health professionals are not allowed to be incompetent.  Every ethics code for all mental health professionals, both in the U.S. and internationally, REQUIRES professional competence.

AB-PA returns us to the path of standard and established constructs and principles of professional psychology, to which ALL mental health professionals can be held accountable.

Craig Childress, Psy.D.
Clinical Psychologist, PSY 18857   

[gotbushels]

I was just wondering about this because my BPD mom has narcissistic traits with a few questionable exceptions that I have been wondering about. In particular, she claims to have more empathy than most other people and she says that most people she encounters in life are narcissists.

kma79 it seems you've got the answers to your question in this thread.

It's not uncommon for a person to meet the criteria for NPD in addition to BPD. From a layman's POV—I think data suggests that BP females may meet the criteria for NPD with a 32% probability*. I'm not a practitioner—and this reads to me as 1/3 chance of a given BPD to meet the list of NPD criteria.

In context of the general population—this seems to be strikingly high. National population BPD prevalence was ~6% at last study; so approx. 1/20 odds. For NPD it's about ~6% (male and female); so approx. 1/20 odds.

A 32% probability in the sample implies 3/10 odds. This is ~six times the odds of the person of interest being NPD relative to the general population. Therefore 32% is strikingly high to me.



Rather than getting stuck with the numbers here—what I found relevant to me for the BP in my life was how it helped me take the relationship in a certain direction, given that new information.

Therefore, in view of Skip's suggestion here,

When asking differential questions about multiple personality disorders, it is important to understand why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.  Examples of focus would be [...]

If your BPM has NP traits as well — how does it help you help you in respect to your relationship with her?

To me, this could imply a low-investment adjustment to our behaviour. E.g., so if you're not in co-living with BPM, and see her at Christmas, and now you know she is now probably able to meet NPD criteria—then see that she's got even poorer capacity on her part to be able to relate to you in a healthy way. In easier terms—we know BP's have fragmented selves, we know that NP's have fragmented selves, and so if you place the two broken vases together, you have an even bigger heap of a broken self. Also, that's consistent with sklamath's idea of NPD persons having fragile selves. Therefore, it makes sense to expect even less from this person's emotional maturity.

A high-investment adjustment to me, I think, is to include things like what Kreger suggested recently on the board (paraphrased) "can you see this from my position" when you're doing negotiation with the BP.

I'm hoping you'll share how you'll use this in respect to your relationship with the BPM.



Thanks Turkish for sharing the article. Yes, I'm with you on this with the projection thing. Seems to be reaction-of-choice for some BPs.

* Link.

[kma79]

Since I am new on here, I didn't realize that I had gotten more responses to these questions. Thank you all so much for responding! I have gotten some really great information from you all on this topic! I guess I can't be totally sure if my mom has NPD, but she does seem to have some of the traits.

I think having a better idea of what personality disorders my mom has will eventually help me to better communicate with her (possibly). I know it will never be perfect, but If I have more information about how she thinks and behaves, I will be able to put her actions and words into perspective and learn to protect myself and family better. Thanks again for the responses!

[zachira]

Kma79,
You have really hit the nail on the head learning about personality disorders and how that can affect your relationships with people with personality disorders. You are hoping to have better communication with your mother. From my perspective, I see the biggest challenge is accepting that your mother functions poorly because of her problems with personality disorders and that the relationship will always be one sided. You can communicate with your mother in ways that help her from becoming too dysregulated and at the same time are in no way responsible for her becoming emotionally dysregulated. With my family members with BPD, I have found that limiting my contact with them, not giving them information about my life, and letting them do all the talking while ending the conversation when things gets out of hand, is what works. Those of us with mothers with personality disorders will always be sad about having missed out on a close caring connection with our mothers.

[kiwigal]

Kma79, From my perspective, I see the biggest challenge is accepting that your mother functions poorly because of her problems with personality disorders and that the relationship will always be one sided... With my family members with BPD, I have found that limiting my contact with them, not giving them information about my life, and letting them do all the talking while ending the conversation when things gets out of hand, is what works. Those of us with mothers with personality disorders will always be sad about having missed out on a close caring connection our mothers.

This is so helpful with my in laws.
Every now and then I come off the bandwagon, forgetting that I cannot trust them for a moment because when things get comfortable or nice.. I let down my guard. And regret it every. single. time. Its so helpful for me to come back to those basics!

PS. As for the empathy thing. YES.
I think the thing is, they are with those who it suits. They can be the kindest people .. except when they're threatened, jealous or insecure by anyone who fails to see them as entirely good. And when you dont see the good, youre the bad person in their narrative. Im trying so hard to learn to accept that I can't change their perception of me... I can only be less available to engage in that role.