Tit-for-tat and “What will you give up?”

[Ozzie101]

A few months ago, H decided to get rid of all the wine in the house. Even a glass could tip him over into a major dysregulation — blackouts, rages, etc. I didn’t feel safe. Since then, he’s had drinks away from home or has snuck it in. Same results.

This afternoon he got a series of work texts that got him stressed so he told me “I’m going to put an end to our rule. I’m bringing the alcohol back in.” I direct the best way — told him that I had a problem with that. Especially when he’s as stressed as he’s been. Cue argument. I told him drinking is up to him but I’ll do what I have to to feel safe. He said I’m forbidding him.

Now what he’s stuck on is this: he’s supposed to give up something he likes and enjoys, I should too. I said like what? His response: maybe you shouldn’t talk to your family. “How would you feel if I said you talking to your grandmother hurts me? Would you give that up?”

I feel like they’re not analogous. And I feel like keeping score, making everything even, tit-for-tat isn’t right. Things even out over time.

But am I off base? Unreasonable? I know I probably didn’t handle his insistence on bringing wine back in the best way.

[ortac77]

It's not analogous is it - talking to you family seems a good thing to do helping both you and them during these difficult times, a healthy coping mechanism.

Drinking to excess or even moderately and then ending up dysregulated is not a healthy coping mechanism, co-morbidity of alcohol misuse is sadly common with BPD and other Mental Health problems.

The problem is (just as it is with alcoholism) you can make rules, hide drink, pour it down the drain - whatever - they will still drink and will not stop until they want to or a life event intervenes. Its tough, my pwBPD also goes down the alcohol route when stressed and it always makes things worse for him.

If you have Al-Anon in your area it might be helpful to you?

[formflier]

It's hard not to be a smartazz at times like this. 

An older version of FF would have said something like.. "Ok..I'll give up participating in your rages."

which might have cued "oh that's not something you like"

Which wold have cued "oh..so..why do they happen then?"

Note, stuff like this will feel good (in the moment) but will likely add fuel to the fire.

Here's what I would recommend.

"Babe we came to a joint agreement on removal of alcohol from out house.  Perhaps someday we might come together to change our minds.  It's important we do that together."

Then try to shift it to  "Changing this rule seems important to you.  Do I have that right?  I want to understand more."  (then try to listen, understand and validate)

If he keeps wanting to "bull charge" the rule through...ask succinctly.  "Hey babe...are you proposing or imposing a change.  I want to understand you correctly."


I think it was reasonable to ask "like what" for the tit for tat thing.  Obviously don't agree but I think there is more to listen and validate.

"Ok..I hear you, so you believe giving up alcohol and associated issues is comparable to speaking to my Grandmother.  Do I have that right?"


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

I agree with Oracle and FF...they say it better.

These two things are entirely different — scale, magnitude, harmful effect. So dissimilar, IMO.

My guess is he has nothing else to grab onto so he simply reaches for something that is important to you.  Probably a clue the importance he places on alcohol. But he’s worked on it before, so having the discussion as FF suggested may work wonders.

Just sending  your way.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a wild stretch but perhaps it might make sense of how he sees his use of alcohol as similar to you talking with your grandmother.

When alcohol was a major issue in my relationship with my husband, I asked him what he got out of drinking. Usually he wouldn't have been willing to disclose his innermost feelings about that topic, but I guess the stars were aligned correctly and he actually told me.

What he said was that alcohol was like an old friend who wasn't judgmental and was very comforting.

Perhaps your husband is jealous of your bond with your grandmother?

[Ozzie101]

Thank you all. Those are excellent and helpful points.

I know t-f-t is not right. And I’m well aware that my having a relationship with my family is in no way analogous. In his mind (when he dysregulates) it is. He sees them as a threat. I see alcohol as a threat. His view is unhealthy and distorted — colored by his own prejudices and experiences. But I can’t explain that to him in a helpful way.

We were able to talk more reasonably and I told him that, yes, some day we may be able to have it here again. He initiated himself that it’s a discussion we would have together.

He told me we could set a rule that if he plans on drinking or comes home after drinking, I should take his keys, phone and wallet to keep and if he gets out of hand, leave with them. Or call the police. I told him my point is I don’t want to be in that position. I don’t want to do that to him. And, in the moment, I can’t be sure I’ll be physically able to.

He’s trying to put it all on me, just like his job. I’m telling him he can’t drink. I won’t tell him he can quit. Trying to cede responsibility. I tell him, no, those are his choices to make. Can he drink? Sure. But I’ll do what I need to do in response. His job? Again, it’s ultimately his call but, no, I’m not going to tell him he should.

Is my H jealous? Yes. He never had the closeness with anyone in his family that I have with mine. I know and keep up with all kinds of extended family. I had a fun, loving, happy childhood. I love my hometown (run-down as it is now). He can’t say any of those things. He sometimes is disdainful of me in that regard. Or gets kind of down on himself, as if he’s a bad person for not caring about his family or having fond memories of people he grew up with. Pretty sure a lot of that is jealousy.

I’m sorry for that. I wish he’d had better experiences. But I won’t cut off or deny things that matter to me because of it.

[formflier]

Did you agree to be his "monitor"?  (not sure what you call it)

or

Did you specifically deny taking the responsibility and hand it back to him?

Not sure if it matters...trying to get my head around this.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

I think he sees your objections to his drinking as a threat. It's threatening to interfere with his main coping mechanism. To someone who is dependent on using substances to deal with life on life's terms, that is a huge threat, and it will make them defensive. They will rationalize and justify their substance use, and that is what he is doing with his proposal for how you should respond to his drinking. He's scrambling to find a way to keep his drinking and pacify you so he won't feel pressured to stop.

I think he threw out the grandmother thing because 1) your family and your relationship with them stirs up his rejection and abandonment fears and 2) he picked something that would be a huge sacrifice to you and cause you much discomfort because that is the level of discomfort he would experience if he had to give up the alcohol.

He also probably used something he knows you would not do so he can feel justifed in his decision to not stop drinking. "She won't do that for me, so I don't have to do this for her". This goes along with using obligation as currency to get needs met. If he makes a huge sacrifice for you, it leaves him with a void. To balance that out, he thinks you should make an equally painful sacrifice. If you won't, it lets him off the hook in his mind and justifies his continued drinking.

[Ozzie101]

FF, I handed it back to him. I said we could discuss things calmly and rationally but anything he does is his decision and I won’t tell him what to do.

You’re exactly right, Redeemed. It is a threat to him. And it goes hand in hand with his focus on obligations.

I don’t like to make demands or control people. I want people to do what they enjoy and what makes him happy. Thing is, in this case:
He doesn’t enjoy it. He oozes misery when he’s like that.
He not happy with it.
It’s a huge threat to our relationship and to my safety and peace of mind.
That’s the reason I’m standing my ground. It’s like I told him. You can drink. I can’t and won’t stop you. But if you do, I have to do whatever I need to to feel safe.

[formflier]

FF, I handed it back to him. I said we could discuss things calmly and rationally but anything he does is his decision and I won’t tell him what to do.
 

OK..that's good.

Then when he brings it up in the future as if you agreed to it. How often does he bring it up as if you had agreed to it?

What exactly did you say?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

The tit-for-tat is an artificial construct. You are right to step away from that. You are also right to step away from decision-making on the alcohol -- it is his responsibility, and you have your own responsibility.

[Ozzie101]

Well, when he dysregulates, he frequently brings up things as if I’ve agreed or disagreed when, in fact, I never did either. I used to argue. Doesn’t do any good so I usually just sort of let him rant.

In regards to drinking, he kept telling me I have all the control and I’m telling him he can’t drink. I said, “I don’t have control. The control is yours. I’m not going to tell you what you can and can’t do. That’s for you to decide.” That’s what I usually tell him when he’s trying to push things onto me.

He doesn’t like that because then, it’s me putting everything (more stress) on him. I try to be sympathetic but also firmly stand my ground. I will not decide for you.

He was the one who decided to get rid of the wine, as he brought up several times. He took it out, he gets to decide when it comes back. Then, in the next breath trying to say I’m the one calling the shots and being resentful about it.

It seems like he knows it’s best to keep it out. He knows he shouldn’t. Yet he’s struggling and chafing at the restriction and needing to lash out. As usual, I’m the handy target.

[formflier]

  I used to argue. Doesn’t do any good so I usually just sort of let him rant.

 I said, “I don’t have control. The control is yours. I’m not going to tell you what you can and can’t do. That’s for you to decide.” 

I think you are mostly there (80-90%) there.

Arguing (especially circular)... no good.

It also seems to me that there should be a succinct way to restate your truth..ONCE.  Then let him rant if tools don't seem to moderate things.

You sticking around for the rant is likely not good either.

I would certainly want others to weigh in before you try to use any of this.  I would think saying "That's not true.  You make your decisions." would be wise.  (said neutrally of course).

And to show my thinking about good, better best...it's likely better to upgrade that to "We decide for ourselves." (and take the "you" out of it)


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes, I think using the “we” is smart. I’ve used that in other areas too. For instance, when he goes into the “if we run out of money are your parents going to support us?” thing, I say “We’re responsible for ourselves.”

I know listening to rants is not good. That’s my biggest room for improvement area, I think. Because my listening to him doesn’t do either of us any good — just the opposite.

I see a pattern of resentment. Growing some in me, though I fight it. But he gets bothered by a lot. Jealousy over my family. Resentment that, as an hourly worker I go off the clock and he doesn’t, really.

The childcare stuff is pretty well in the forefront lately. I know it stresses him out because he has a lot of insecurities and enmeshment. But when stressed, he makes accusations and passive aggressive comments about all he has to do and how I don’t help. I do help some. But, honestly? SS is not my child. A lot of it is not my responsibility. It’s not that I don’t care. But stepparents are not parents. When that happens, I stay calm and try to use SET.

But the larger pattern is frustrating. Particularly when I feel like I go above and beyond in a lot of areas. I put H and his needs and feelings first. And it’s unappreciated. Pulling back some and focusing more on myself — selfish? Potentially harmful? Or good plan?

[formflier]

  I say “We’re responsible for ourselves.”

 

I don't think you should say yes or no.  More vague is likely better.

"I'm confident we'll figure out a way forward together."

See how that is positive and "together".

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

But the larger pattern is frustrating. Particularly when I feel like I go above and beyond in a lot of areas. I put H and his needs and feelings first. And it’s unappreciated. Pulling back some and focusing more on myself — selfish? Potentially harmful? Or good plan?

There's a lack of reciprocity and often for those of us who tend to be codependent, we try even harder...and end up feeling resentful that our efforts are never seen nor appreciated.

Best to try and even out the equation. Don't over-give. Nothing selfish about being appropriately supportive. If you're giving 90% and he's giving 20%, then what are you teaching him about yourself?

[GaGrl]

It's a contradictory way for him to operate in relationships. He is adamant on reciprocity as a relational transaction, but he doesn't see that the day-to-day aspects of marriage and family are uneven. I'm not sure this could improve without the help of an MC, because he would argue it.

[Ozzie101]

Good distinction, FF. Thanks!

Yes, Cat, that’s one thing to work on. I was raised to believe pitching in, helping, etc., are good things. And they are. But in a situation like this, normal rules don’t always apply. I’m becoming more aware of rescuing — when should I help and when should I just let him handle things.

GaGrl, when he’s at baseline, he’ll be the first to tell you that he’s a selfish person. That he thinks about himself and often doesn’t think about what other people might think or feel or do. Just sees what he does and puts up with. That’s not necessarily BPD. That’s one area where it gets hard to untangle.

Some things are just unreasonable/unrealistic expectations. Like my relationship with SS. That’s not uncommon, particularly with fathers and stepmoms. Or he sees something as not fitting what he wants and getting annoyed (like my inflexible work schedule — it becomes me putting my job first).

I see a lot of the same stuff (anger and frustration at anything that doesn’t fit his wants) in SS from time to time. Lovely. Not sure how much is spoiled only child and how much is potential BPD-related behavior/attitude.

Some of those things might be fixed or addressed through MC but for reasons addressed in another thread, I don’t think it’s a possibility — at least for now.

[Cat Familiar]

Nothing wrong with pitching in and helping. That was part of my upbringing too (Southern dad values).

What I’ve learned is that, though pwBPD may want help, sometimes when we provide it, they feel diminished, as if we now know they are less worthy because they weren’t capable of doing it themselves. Or the help we provide isn’t exactly what they’re asking for.

Often what they really want at a deeper level is for us to fix their uncertainty, their insecurity, the deep hole within them that is their lack of sense of self.

Since that’s impossible, any help we provide will always fall short of the mark.

In the process of trying to help them, we can be viewed by them as needy and dependent. And futilely trying to fix whatever is the problem de jour, our failing efforts that are not only unappreciated but also cause discord, can diminish our own sense of self esteem.

[Cat Familiar]

Nowadays I ask my husband if he wants help. Often, to my surprise, he says no.

If he does want help, I ask what specifically he wants me to do.
If he can’t name it, I will wait until he can.

This isn’t a global strategy. There’s lots of times when I pitch in, like I would with someone who is a non, like putting away groceries.

I’ve been surprised by how possessive he can be about insignificant tasks and how he can feel I’m being domineering or controlling if I start helping, unasked.

Your husband may not be like this and I do remember he’s said that you should automatically know what kind of help he needs without being asked. Of course that’s a totally unreasonable expectation.

[Ozzie101]

That’s good insight on how pwBPD can view helping. I’ll keep that in mind.

And you’re right — he tends to have the “you should just know” attitude.

It seems to be connected to his troubles with stress and discomfort. He wants/demands help — his definition of help. He doesn’t see that sometimes people can’t. To him, can’t = won’t. Then the person is worthless.

All this is when he’s stressed or dysregulating. When he cools down, he’s far more reasonable. But it will all come up again next time.

That’s why I no longer offer to reach out to my resources or contacts when he has a problem. In my experience, nothing is ever enough and it just leads to him being more upset.

[formflier]

If he does want help, I ask what specifically he wants me to do.
If he can’t name it, I will wait until he can.
 

This!


Now, often it's something I want done a particular way.  Then I announce how I will be doing it and then go about it (after verifying there is no particular suggestion from FFw)


So..currently laundry has come back up as the thing I'm not supposed to touch...for some reason.

So I haven't been touching it.  So...guess what is piled up?

Right...

Best,

FF