How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 3

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Do you think there was something loaded in telling him what time the electrician was coming?

Do you think you provoked him?     Do you think you are supposed to provide information so that he never gets upset?   

No, I definitely don’t think I’m supposed to shield him. Cannot understand how it would provoke him.

But, I’ve contributed to this mess. Mostly either by not paying attention or by choosing to ignore what was going on. Not handling things the right way. And now I have a hard time seeing IF I’m so out of touch that I am doing things that are making it worse.

I hate having to spend time and money on not fun stuff. I don’t enjoy talking about it either. Doesn’t change the fact that it has to be done.

He’s reverted to some impending doom state. Staying mostly calm but you can see it on his face and his behavior.

I do feel sorry for him that he’s having a harder time, but also resent that his feelings are paramount to everyone else’s. He has not considered how any of this affects me (nothing new) or the impact on the kids, the world.

Anyway, no I don’t think this should have provoked him. Not sure why it did. Didn’t know if was missing something.

Thanks BabyDucks!

[UBPDHelp]

Do you think there was something loaded in telling him what time the electrician was coming?

Do you think you provoked him?     Do you think you are supposed to provide information so that he never gets upset?   

No, I definitely don’t think I’m supposed to shield him. Cannot understand how it would provoke him.

But, I’ve contributed to this mess. Mostly either by not paying attention or by choosing to ignore what was going on. Not handling things the right way. And now I have a hard time seeing IF I’m so out of touch that I am doing things that are making it worse.

I hate having to spend time and money on not fun stuff. I don’t enjoy talking about it either. Doesn’t change the fact that it has to be done.

He’s reverted to some impending doom state. Staying mostly calm but you can see it on his face and his behavior.

I do feel sorry for him that he’s having a harder time, but also resent that his feelings are paramount to everyone else’s. He has not considered how any of this affects me (nothing new) or the impact on the kids, the world.

Anyway, no I don’t think this should have provoked him. Not sure why it did. Didn’t know if was missing something.

Thanks BabyDucks!

[babyducks]

And now I have a hard time seeing IF I’m so out of touch that I am doing things that are making it worse.

makes sense.   I understand what you mean.   

this is the one place where I think you would be more comfortable and more emotionally at peace;  NotWendy touched on it upstream.    what makes this worse for you is not accepting that 90% of what he does is not about you.    remember the cupcakes?     had nothing to do with you.   or the kids.    or really the cupcakes.     

if you continue to deny that he lives in a distorted reality you will never be sure of what your reality is.

He has a continuous supply of emotional ammunition coming from himself. He might be making you the blame for it but that's not true.

His behavior is what it is and you are not causing this. Surely it is distressing to be cooped up with his behaviors but you have to stop believing that you have any responsibility for his "ammunition".

if you stop emotionally managing his feelings, protecting him and being responsible ... things will get better.    this will not cure or control or fix him.    it will generate less conflict.    walking away after his "we divorce and they do an assessment on the work done and find out the electrician scammed us" blast was the right thing to do.   it meant you didn't feed the argument.    it doesn't mean he isn't going to have the outburst.

I think it was Marsha Linehan who said that BPD/NPD sufferers are the emotional equivalent of third degree burn victims.   they are always in pain,   always in secure... always on edge.     

'ducks

[formflier]

 
if you continue to deny that he lives in a distorted reality you will never be sure of what your reality is.

if you stop emotionally managing his feelings, protecting him and being responsible ... things will get better.    this will not cure or control or fix him.    it will generate less conflict.    
 

Pay attention to the focus.  Finding yourself and generating less conflict. 

Anyway, no I don’t think this should have provoked him. Not sure why it did. Didn’t know if was missing something.

I can be an overthinker.  I suspect you are as well.  For solvable problems "overthinking" (or being very thoughtful) is helpful.  For "dealing with" a personality disorder..I assure you it's not.

This all sounds good, but I’m noticing that it takes days for me to get ready AND for him to be in a place to participate. It’s taking so much effort to just discuss anything.
 

I suspect the above issue is tied to your thinking that this is fixable or understandable.  Don't hear me saying that preparation isn't a good thing (especially at this stage of your undrstanding).  That said, I doubt days of prep is helpful.

What can you do to change your outlook here?

  Not handling things the right way. 

It's very easy to slip into dichotomous thinking.  Right/wrong, good/bad.  Whatever you can do to introduce more nuance into your thinking will help you (and just might nudge him in a better direction as well...although that's not the point)

One of the ways us "nons" can waste energy is believing there is a "right way" and there is a "hook" in that thinking that  if I do it right "my pwBPD will be better".

The reality is in Ducks comment above.  Personality disorders really don't get "fixed".  By improving the relationship there was less conflict.  That is a product of the relationship change, not of a fix to a personality disorder.

Think about this for a minute.  If you are a glass half empty person...you can to to a hopeless place.  "He'll never get better" (and that is likely true).  If you are a glass half full person..."the situation/relationship with be better"  (that is also likely true even if "he" doesn't get better)

Spend some time with those two points of view...both of which I would argue are valid and true.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

makes sense.   I understand what you mean.  

this is the one place where I think you would be more comfortable and more emotionally at peace;  NotWendy touched on it upstream.    what makes this worse for you is not accepting that 90% of what he does is not about you.    remember the cupcakes?     had nothing to do with you.   or the kids.    or really the cupcakes.    

if you continue to deny that he lives in a distorted reality you will never be sure of what your reality is.

Exactly. It’s hard to remember he is not capable of seeing true reality. Only reason I know it’s reality is that there are other people who see what I see and not what he does. So distorted.

When the electrician came back (he had replaced a part a week ago — the rest of the unit failed), he had to now replace the whole thing. I spoke to him and he credited us for the small part from last week against the whole new part. Explained that they don’t use the whole part we had anymore so if just a small part, they may have it, but wouldn’t for the whole thing. Confusing, but it’s like if the valve stem goes bad on your tire, you can replace it, but if the tread is also bad, you replace the whole tire.

Anyway H wanted to understand and so I explained as best I could. He interrupted and peppered with questions (they don’t make the old part or they won’t replace with the old part?). I did my best to explain what my understanding was, but he ended up just telling me I didn’t understand and it didn’t make sense. I told him I was sorry I didn’t know much about it so going forward it would probably be better if he handled the electrician and walked out of the room.

No idea what his takeaway was, but I felt better.

if you stop emotionally managing his feelings, protecting him and being responsible ... things will get better.    this will not cure or control or fix him.    it will generate less conflict.

Can you elaborate what you think will happen?

I envision him crumbling into a rage that he actually has to deal with something. I’d like to believe it would get better, but can’t see how.

 

walking away after his "we divorce and they do an assessment on the work done and find out the electrician scammed us" blast was the right thing to do.   it meant you didn't feed the argument.    it doesn't mean he isn't going to have the outburst.

I think it was Marsha Linehan who said that BPD/NPD sufferers are the emotional equivalent of third degree burn victims.   they are always in pain,   always in secure... always on edge.

Well Marsha Linehan, I’d like to have a word with you! Ha!

It explains why the negative lashing is always at the surface ready to boil over.

Thanks BabyDucks!  I feel very messy progress and, yes, a lot of it has to do with me changing my behavior, including having basically zero expectation that he can manage a somewhat functional relationship.  

[UBPDHelp]

Pay attention to the focus.  Finding yourself and generating less conflict. 

I can be an overthinker.  I suspect you are as well.  For solvable problems "overthinking" (or being very thoughtful) is helpful.  For "dealing with" a personality disorder..I assure you it's not.

I guess I overthink for a number of reasons. One, I don’t naturally “read” people. I know how I’d feel in certain situations, but recognize they may feel differently (exact opposite of H who assumes we all feel how he does).  And, secondly, from being told I’m wrong all the time searching for where I got lost. I’m really trying to break this and not need approval on everything.

Working on it.

I suspect the above issue is tied to your thinking that this is fixable or understandable.  Don't hear me saying that preparation isn't a good thing (especially at this stage of your undrstanding).  That said, I doubt days of prep is helpful.

What can you do to change your outlook here?

I’ve spent 25 years thinking if I just this or that, it would somehow be better. I’m starting to get this, but taking me a while to get here.

It's very easy to slip into dichotomous thinking.  Right/wrong, good/bad.  Whatever you can do to introduce more nuance into your thinking will help you (and just might nudge him in a better direction as well...although that's not the point)

One of the ways us "nons" can waste energy is believing there is a "right way" and there is a "hook" in that thinking that  if I do it right "my pwBPD will be better".

I’m someone who has an opinion and can share that, but remain open to other’s ideas. I definitely see things as right/wrong but on a huge spectrum, so it’s not just one thing here and one there. But, for goodness sake, couldn’t he land somewhere on the “right” spectrum?

The reality is in Ducks comment above.  Personality disorders really don't get "fixed".  By improving the relationship there was less conflict.  That is a product of the relationship change, not of a fix to a personality disorder.

Think about this for a minute.  If you are a glass half empty person...you can to to a hopeless place.  "He'll never get better" (and that is likely true).  If you are a glass half full person..."the situation/relationship with be better"  (that is also likely true even if "he" doesn't get better)

I always try to find the positive. He can always find the negative. Not that I can’t see it, too, but I then say BS and want to fix what’s wrong. He just wants to complain about it for an hour.

Spend some time with those two points of view...both of which I would argue are valid and true.

Agree...thanks FF

[UBPDHelp]

I feel a bit bad because I’m on early or late and both times see me tired and struggling to make sense. So apologies if I don’t seem coherent sometimes. 

Just a quick side note...someone, my apologies I forget who, suggested when H sends a comment intended as an insult, I simply thank him.

So today we were having a discussion about kids and school (thanks FF) and we worked it through and agreed. I was adding commentary why I was disappointed how the teacher handled something. I used a “hillbilly” adjective. My H looked at me and said I sounded like my dad, which is insulting from him because he hated my dad. I just said thank you. He looked at me and said that if I said thank you, the conversation was over. So I left.

I came back in an hour or so and he was back to normal and not a word.

Bummed he ended the conversation before I could but still feels like a partial win.

Thanks all!

[formflier]

He just wants to complain about it for an hour.
 

I would suggest the strongest possibility is he wants to be heard and validated, yet it "sounds like" complaining to us.

I do agree he likely doesn't want it "fixed"..

This is a tough place for "fixers" like us...

Can you see this?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I would suggest the strongest possibility is he wants to be heard and validated, yet it "sounds like" complaining to us.

I do agree he likely doesn't want it "fixed"..

This is a tough place for "fixers" like us...

Can you see this?

Hi FF,

Yes, I see this. In fact, I always start (very mindfully now)  by validating him (perfectly? maybe not always), but it does not quell it. Sometimes I can’t listen to it forever so I leave. Other times I just ignore it and stay.

But, it very much feels like everything I do revolves around what he is doing. Tolerable, I get to go about my day as I would like.  Intolerable, I have to excuse myself and change my plans. I know you would all say to keep doing my thing or do something for me, but if I have to leave the main family space to get away and spend time in the bedroom, it somewhat dictates what I want to and can do. And, I definitely see that this is so much more heightened and obvious now that we’ve been 24/7 for over two months.

Yesterday I made a very conscious effort to acknowledge something he did for the family.  We sat for lunch and I told the family that dad saved the day by finding supplies we needed but were having a hard time locating. It was small stuff equating to a big deal. I made the accolades bigger than necessary (not over the top, but more than needed) just to help bolster him and see if his mood would improve. Yes, for about two minutes and then more complaining about the electrician from the day before.

I’m not giving up. What choice do I have right now?  But in some ways it seems that even being more aware and using the right tools, again maybe not perfectly, he just isn’t capable of managing his feelings. I know ultimately that the tools are for me and how I behave and react, but it feels like we’re teetering way more to not wanting to live like this.

I will say that there have been less “episodes of rage”, which I am not entirely sure aren’t just because there’s really nowhere for him to go AND that he is planning to separate when we are not stuck at home so he’s just given up. But, the constant picking at me and some the kids for things that just aren’t important (think why those pants, why are you wearing your hair that way, those aren’t the right pajamas (for no known reason), that’s not the right cheese, why did you buy this toothpaste (um, there’s a pandemic (that you are quivering about nonstop) and the available options are limited). Me — just happy to have toothpaste; him — this toothpaste sux and I don’t know why you would ever buy this. It’s exhausting.

Actually, it would be great if you could suggest a response to these types of comments.

I’ve tried saying — I like these pants, they are comfortable;  what concerns you/don’t you like about my pants (ugh, why do my pants matter to him?);  its a good thing they’re not yours/you don’t have to wear them (which is flippant and definitely doesn’t work). Ignoring sometimes works, sometimes it makes him push more.

[Cat Familiar]

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