Alimony Question

[Reawakening]

Can anyone share their experience with alimony? Has anyone heard of or done lump sum alimony?

A little background: uBPDh does not work and has not worked for most of our 12 years together. Before that he did work various jobs and then had his own business. He is not on disability so he has no income. He probably qualified for disability When he first stopped working, but the credits have run out by now. He does not have a college degree, but If he took care of his health/saw doctors/lost weight he could work at a job or start his business again. He constantly (And I mean constantly, for hours) talks about doing this and has elaborate plans, but doesn’t ever take any actual steps. I have worked and paid for everything the whole time. Since 2012 I have had 2 jobs and for the past year I’ve been working 2 full time jobs from home. I have a 12 yo daughter (not biologically his).

Thanks in advance for any insight!

[MeandThee29]

Certainly a lump sum is a possibility, or alimony for a set number of years. Everything can be balanced with trade-offs of course.

Most states have guidelines and calculators.

Without going into details, there's an area where my ex should have requested a lump sum or tradeoff elsewhere and didn't. My lawyer was surprised that his didn't see that, or maybe he did. Now they're reopening that...sigh.

[ForeverDad]

If your spouse can work but hasn't, then when determining alimony it is proper for you to ask that the calculations include his imputed income ability.  The point is that you don't default to setting him at zero while you are at the double income.

To expand on that, most members here tried and tried to make their relationship work for years, bent over backwards, so to speak.  To a large part that's due to our own personality traits.  We try to be Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  However, in a divorce it is usually best to treat it like undoing a financial merger... don't let emotions cause you to feel you have to be overly nice or overly fair.

Repeat, court does not expect either parent to be super nice, too fair or overly fair.  You won't get extra credits or points with the court by selling yourself short.  This is where an experienced lawyer can step in and protect you from "gifting" too much to the other party.

More and more states are treating alimony as support to assist the disadvantaged spouse in the transition into post-marital life.  It is less and less viewed as long term support.  Whatever the alimony is, it seldom if ever exceeds half the length of the marriage, often much less.  In my case, my ex-spouse portion was calculated using an imputed minimum wage level and the term was 1/6 of the marriage's length.

So if there is alimony, it might be somewhere between two to 5 years, let's hope it is toward the low end of the time scale.  Don't ignore that you've been doing two jobs, your lawyer can advise you whether just one job can be used for your side of the calculations.  After all, would court expect to require you to continue with two jobs solely to pay him support?

He may claim he did a lot of the child care.  Be prepared to refute that, especially if he tries to get parenting time.  Unless he actually adopted your daughter, he would have stepparent status at most and probably the court would not force you to have a parenting schedule with him after the divorce is final.  If that becomes an issue then be sure to ask us specifically on strategies to address that.

Can you share with us some of your stbEx's expectations or demands from a divorce?  Would he expect alimony, considering that you'd also be supporting your child?  Hmm, maybe that should have been my first thought.  Your lawyer could tell you whether you can avoid alimony altogether, considering he could have been working all this time rather than loafing around while you've been struggling at two jobs.

[livednlearned]

Hi Reawakening,

I like your name 

I read your prior posts and could really identify with how it feels to have a child wish for the relationship to end. That's a tough dagger to the heart. And feeling guilty, feeling responsible for other people, that's familiar too. I'm glad you reached out and are seeking support from peers here. We're here to walk with you.

Can anyone share their experience with alimony? Has anyone heard of or done lump sum alimony?

Not exactly alimony but I gave my ex husband the house and it took four trips to court and two lawyers just to give it away.

I'm guessing the reason you want to give him a lump sum is so you can cut ties and be done with no strings?

[Reawakening]

He may claim he did a lot of the child care.  Be prepared to refute that, especially if he tries to get parenting time.  Unless he actually adopted your daughter, he would have stepparent status at most and probably the court would not force you to have a parenting schedule with him after the divorce is final.  If that becomes an issue then be sure to ask us specifically on strategies to address that.

Can you share with us some of your stbEx's expectations or demands from a divorce?  Would he expect alimony, considering that you'd also be supporting your child?  Hmm, maybe that should have been my first thought.  Your lawyer could tell you whether you can avoid alimony altogether, considering he could have been working all this time rather than loafing around while you've been struggling at two jobs.

ForeverDad, thank you SO much for your response. It has helped me immensely with a lot of things I've been thinking about, and also is helping me reframe my mindset on how I'm approaching some of these topics.

I had a consultation with a lawyer about 2 years ago, before I left with my daughter for 3 weeks and then got sucked back in. The lawyer said that since he did not adopt her, he could not have court ordered visitation or parenting time. That would be up to me to decide if I wanted to allow it. He definitely did not do the childcare. The most he did was drop her off at daycare/school when I worked onsite, and then about 5-6 years ago I started working from home and he did not do anything. As far as alimony, she said that in this state there are no set guidelines or calculators, and it is really on a case by case basis. She did think there would be some sort of alimony required. At the time, she did ask if I could wait it out until he either got on disability or started making income again...which I know after 12 years with him is not going to happen unless he starts to do something because he is forced (because my support is running out). I can't remember if I discussed BPD traits with her at that time, I think I did. I definitely discussed emotional abuse.

I do not know what his expectations or demands from a divorce will be, we are not at the point yet where it has been discussed openly. During rages in the past he has said he would get alimony if I divorced him. If he was in a clearer, kinder head space, would he forego alimony knowing I have to support my daughter? Would his pride forego it? Or would he do everything he could to hurt me? I don't know, I find his reactions to other things so unpredictable. I should probably be ready for anything. I have not brought up separation/divorce yet to him. I have brought up marriage counseling several times, and ideally I would like to get into that space to bring up the idea of separation. It's difficult right now as everything is shut down in our state including in person counseling visits. I'm trying to think through things and get my ducks in a row as I'm able.

[Reawakening]

Certainly a lump sum is a possibility, or alimony for a set number of years. Everything can be balanced with trade-offs of course.

Most states have guidelines and calculators.

Without going into details, there's an area where my ex should have requested a lump sum or tradeoff elsewhere and didn't. My lawyer was surprised that his didn't see that, or maybe he did. Now they're reopening that...sigh.

MeandThee, thank you for your response. That is awful that they are reopening it...was your divorce final and they are going back in? Ugh!

[Reawakening]

Hi Reawakening,

I like your name 

I read your prior posts and could really identify with how it feels to have a child wish for the relationship to end. That's a tough dagger to the heart. And feeling guilty, feeling responsible for other people, that's familiar too. I'm glad you reached out and are seeking support from peers here. We're here to walk with you.

Not exactly alimony but I gave my ex husband the house and it took four trips to court and two lawyers just to give it away.

I'm guessing the reason you want to give him a lump sum is so you can cut ties and be done with no strings?

Thanks so much livednlearned. It is absolutely a tough dagger to the heart. She is such an amazing kid, wise beyond her years, empathetic, smart and strong. It is painful to realize again that she also has been pulled somewhat into an emotional caretaker role. It also seems that she has stronger/better internal boundaries than I do. I love and admire her so much. I want to get us both out of here and into therapy.

Four trips to court and two lawyers...wow.

You are right, I am wondering about lump sum to have it over with and cut ties as much as possible. The house is in my name and there is very little to no equity in it. I don't want it, I would like to just sell it and get out of it. We have two old but paid off cars, both in my name at the moment. He has equipment to re-start his business. We have some savings. I am willing to look at alimony as a way for him to get re-established separate from me, get back to work or re-open his business. He would be able to work in a matter of months if he visited a doctor/lost weight through diet and exercise (He has basically made himself disabled through his weight). I am thinking for myself if it is a lump sum then I can know my monthly budget going forward is just around supporting myself and my daughter...I can decide on my own if I want/need to continue working two jobs. Psychologically I am wondering if lump sum would encourage him to detach from me also...rather than feel connected to me every time the money transfers. I might be grasping at straws there - sometimes I don't know if he will ever be able to detach or accept it.

[livednlearned]

If alimony is not required given the parameters of your relationship, what sum would you feel comfortable giving him?

I would take that sum, then divide it by half. Then divide it again. 

Because that way you can set 75 percent of the money you want to spend aside for the legal fees you may incur getting him to cooperate with divorce. So if you think 4000 is reasonable, then give him 1000. Use the rest to manage things when and if he stonewalls.

Otherwise, if you decide to give him 100 percent of what you feel comfortable giving, you will pay roughly the same just to give it to him (he'll either want more or will cost more by stonewalling/obstructing in some way).

Looking back, I wish I had treated the negotiation as a 10-step process.

For example: Look at each step, think about what you will say/do (offer) and try to think through his responses and how you would then respond. Know your absolute bottom line, and know what the courts would likely to do if he were to take you all the way there.

These relationships do have some predictability hard-wired into them 

[ForeverDad]

Have you chosen a lawyer yet or do you have plans to consult with a few (usually free or inexpensive to interview).  One strategy you or your lawyer could use in court is that your spouse should immediately start making serious efforts to find income.  It shouldn't be left to the end of the case to give him that admonition.  Otherwise he would then ask for support while figuring out how to work.

I don't know whether weight issue alone is basis to seek disability.  Frankly, that's on him to figure out.  When I lost my 15+ year job no one would hire me and so I took Social Security a little early.  Since I thereafter had a heart attack and have an implant now, I've appealed for disability.  Weak heart, metabolic disorder and big coronavirus risks and still I'm fighting to get just a couple hundred dollars extra a month.  My lawyer's office said it may take a another year or more of waiting on my appeal.  So don't let him off the hook or gift him extra time by letting him seek only one alternate way to find support.  Sure, he can seek disability but he also needs to take responsibility for himself.

[Reawakening]

For example: Look at each step, think about what you will say/do (offer) and try to think through his responses and how you would then respond. Know your absolute bottom line, and know what the courts would likely to do if he were to take you all the way there.

These relationships do have some predictability hard-wired into them 

Thank you livednlearned, for the much needed perspective. I have to keep reminding myself that this is not a person who I can expect to be reasonable. As many of us probably are, I am an optimist and I try to find the best in people and give them the benefit of the doubt...obviously I can't do that here at all.

[Reawakening]

Have you chosen a lawyer yet or do you have plans to consult with a few (usually free or inexpensive to interview).  One strategy you or your lawyer could use in court is that your spouse should immediately start making serious efforts to find income.  It shouldn't be left to the end of the case to give him that admonition.  Otherwise he would then ask for support while figuring out how to work.

I don't know whether weight issue alone is basis to seek disability.  Frankly, that's on him to figure out.  When I lost my 15+ year job no one would hire me and so I took Social Security a little early.  Since I thereafter had a heart attack and have an implant now, I've appealed for disability.  Weak heart, metabolic disorder and big coronavirus risks and still I'm fighting to get just a couple hundred dollars extra a month.  My lawyer's office said it may take a another year or more of waiting on my appeal.  So don't let him off the hook or gift him extra time by letting him seek only one alternate way to find support.  Sure, he can seek disability but he also needs to take responsibility for himself.

Thank you for the suggestions ForeverDad. I have consulted with two lawyers, and I will be reaching out to a few more before I make any moves. Both lawyers said that there is no alimony calculator or set of standards for my state. They wouldn't even give me a range to have an idea. That's a good idea about him immediately making efforts to find income.

I know getting disability is often an uphill battle and can take a long time. I hope your efforts are successful. I really don't think he will qualify for it and I doubt he would even get a disability lawyer to take his case on, and as you said that is for him to figure out. I think my strategy would not focus on disability as an option.

[MeandThee29]

MeandThee, thank you for your response. That is awful that they are reopening it...was your divorce final and they are going back in? Ugh!

Yes, we may do an addendum to put it the way it should have been on one financial issue. We told them that. The amount of legal fees expended on this issue doesn't justify the amount received from the institution to my ex. His breakeven is iffy from just a financial standpoint, but I realize there's more behind it.

There are some advantages to me, or I wouldn't even consider it. We are waiting on responses to several questions from an institution that is largely shut down. Sigh...