Mitigate Impact to Kids

[EyesUp]

Married 14 years, overall relationship approaching 25 years.  3 kids.

Communication issues for years, but never expected or even suspected infidelity. Now it's here.

I have not confronted my wife, because I fully expect the worst possible response.

There is a part of me that remembers "for better and for worse" and wants to avoid damage to our family and do all the things...  therapy, etc.

There is another part that clearly sees a divorce as an unavoidable next chapter.

In either case, I'm trying to understand how to protect my three daughters, 5, 9, and 12, from whatever comes next.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Brooklyn1974]

I am so sorry.  I know that feeling.  Married 16 years to my BPD wife and have a 12 yr old daughter.  Has she been diagnosed as BPD?  Has she ever been in counseling?  Please tell us more of your situation.  Are you confident, 100% sure that she has been unfaithful to you? 

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, welcome. I'm glad you're here. We'll do the best we can to support you through whatever happens.

I have three daughters too. I divorced their dad when they were 5, 3 and 1. They're now 19, 17 and 15. I'm now married to a good man who unfortunately has BPD traits. I really get what it means to worry about your kids. 

Brooklyn1974 asked some great questions. Where do you want to start? What part worries you most?

pj

[EyesUp]

Thank you PursuingJoy and Brooklyn1974.

I know it's not possible to manage this situation, other than to remaining calm, avoid triggers, and take advice on how to counter toxic behavior.

My wife has been in therapy for 20 years.  Diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety.  Undermanaged, IMO.  I've expressed support and interest many times, but she is predictably defensive.  Naturally accuses me of whatever she's feeling / doing ("why are you so angry?").  Presently on a baby dose of prozac, and disengaged with her aging therapist who didn't make the move to zoom over the pandemic.

I checked the nanny cams we have around the house and sure enough my wife hosted a visitor while I was canoeing with the kids.  He let himself in, then she saw him off with a kiss about 45 mins later.

The father of our youngest daughter's (5yo) classmate.  She hosted the couple at our house for drinks about a month ago, likely a cover.

Summary:  Very sure something is actively happening, certain that when I call her on it she will channel all her shame and anger to me as I will once again be the cause of her unhappiness, so I am preparing as best I can. 

I won't confront her around the kids.

I near short term and long-term advice to protect myself and the kids.

Is there a snowball's chance to get her to couples therapy to minimize the damage?  With or without a diagnosis, she will inevitably turn this into another episode of "so everything's wrong with me, and you're perfect" - I don't see her taking a diagnosis well.

[pursuingJoy]

It's smart to prepare, though if you're like me, sometimes it can also create more anxiety to imagine the worst. Let's brainstorm.

Do you still have the nanny cam footage, and would it be wise to show it to her when you confront her? 

In your experience, would she be open to couples' counseling, and would it be possible to confront her there? A third party sometimes evens the playing field and keeps the mess contained.

Is it viable to send kids to a grandparent's house for a week to ensure they're not around to witness any potential aftermath?

Are your fears centered on emotional harm done, or is there anything else you're concerned about? 

If any of your concerns are or may become legal, we have a family law board for guidance.

[EyesUp]

I recognize that having sex in our house when the kids could potentially arrive unexpectedly is risky behavior with possible consequences in a divorce.

Yes I have the footage. Have not decided how or if to use it.

Yes I have proposed counseling, but we're likely limited to zoom in the near term - she can unplug at will.

Yes, might be able to get her mother to take the kids for a day.  Not a week.  I know that the confrontation needs to be in a public place or in a therapist's office - for safety, if nothing else.

I will not have the luxury of moving out.  My concerns are about how to live with her explosive anger, potential violence (one reason not to remind her about the cams - I need to keep them on), and attempts to poison the kids against me. 

[once removed]

this is hard.

youve got proof in front of you.

and all you want do is figure out how to best navigate this. and make no mistake, we are with you on your goal(s).

one thing is for sure: youre going to need support. youll need it here. it wasnt clear to me if youre in therapy yourself. if not, id get there. how to approach/confront this is really not clear cut, in any school of thought...depends heavily on how she would react, what your limits are, the nature of your relationship, so many things.

your instincts are that she would be defensive, and youre likely right. most people engaged in a form of infidelity are. its a hell of a thing to be called out on and come to terms with and admit, and youre dealing with someone who, by nature, copes with shame by avoiding it.

your thinking is smart. dont suddenly blow up, and dont involve the kids.

the question is whether to confront her, and how, and whether to have some professional help if possible in the process.

what do you think?

[EyesUp]

Here's where I'm at:

Started therapy ~ 3 weeks ago, and talking helps - but so far, reading the resources here has been the single most helpful thing for me.

I've asked my wife to rejoin couples therapy many times, she's finally agreed and we have an appointment next week.  I do not intend to confront her any time soon, although if I do that will probably be the place. 

My calculus is that confrontation = divorce, and thinking about divorce is a gut punch on several levels - particularly re: kids.  In addition to the emotional turmoil, we'll be wrecked financially on both sides, at least in the near term.

I'm taking a close look at my own behavior.  On one hand, I don't think I can fix her or change her, however I might be able to manager her just a little bit better.  e.g., when she accuses me of cheating (never have), I won't be defensive or shut down - I'll just hand her my phone and show trust.

Honestly, this is a holding tactic while I get my act together.  In the process, I'm optimistic that I can mitigate the worst and possibly set up a better situation. 

Based on some very careful journaling, I don't think her relationship is more than a month old, and I don't think it's happened before.  I don't condone it, and I'm horrified that she's been reckless enough to bring him into our house when I'm with the kids.  I realize that "could be worse" is not great thinking here, but as the title of the post indicates - I'm all about mitigating impact.

I see options:
- mutual destruction - prefer to avoid!
- messy, ugly divorce - prefer to avoid!
- process of reengagement, winning back trust and interest - essentially punting, but possibly improving the home life for all involved, or setting up a "business partner" arrangement for a more amicable split once I'm better prepared - could be 12month process or more

I like the latter option, at the moment, so need to dig deep to determine how to navigate, especially if she continues the affair.

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, that's great news on the therapy front! Having another set of eyes on the relationship can make a big difference. 

Your goals sound very reasonable. You've considered the options and their consequences. You know your situation best. I hear you applying wisdom and reason to your next steps, and I think you'll know when to pivot if/when your situation merits it. I echo once removed: we support you.   

How are your kids doing? Are they absorbing any part of this? Are they impacted by  her behavior?

[EyesUp]

Kids have no idea. They've witnessed occasional conflict over the years, and my wife has effortlessly won their sympathy, of course.

There's a part of me that's wants to seek higher ground, but I'm presently hoping there is a path forward that doesn't destroy everything for everyone.

I might be kidding myself.

It's really difficult to allow an escalating affair to unfold right in front of me.  I understand how it happened, but I'm shocked at the risk - it seems like this must be begging for a way to end our relationship.

One question on the legal side (glad to start a new thread if needed):  if this moves to confrontation, is there anything I can do to keep her paramour out of my house, whether the kids or I are home, or not? 

Thanks again.

[pursuingJoy]

Glad the kids don't seem too affected right now. Also, even though it seems like she's won them effortlessly, kids grow up and have big realizations. Keep spending time with them. They will need you in the days to come. 

It's really difficult to allow an escalating affair to unfold right in front of me.  I understand how it happened, but I'm shocked at the risk - it seems like this must be begging for a way to end our relationship.

I'd feel the same way, EyesUp. Some pwBPD take unreasonably high risks and it is shocking. How are you feeling?

Regarding legal questions: if you want, you can keep this thread going and start a second one focused on legal questions on the family law board. Here's the link, or you can find it by clicking on 'groups' above: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

[EyesUp]

Feeling:  Distinctly not good.

Thanks for the legal link, will start a new thread.

[pursuingJoy]

We're here, EyesUp. Keep us posted.

[once removed]

It's really difficult to allow an escalating affair to unfold right in front of me.  I understand how it happened, but I'm shocked at the risk - it seems like this must be begging for a way to end our relationship.

media...people we love and are close to us...prevailing wisdom...all of it tends to suggest that if your partner cheats, its over, theres no turning back.

we get that this is complicated. that youre trying to make the best of a very bad situation. and we will support you in doing so. likewise, should you reach the decision that this is broken and there is no turning back, we will support you in that path.

whether youre "kidding yourself" remains to be seen. fighting for your marriage is a noble cause. trying to do it in a grounded way, with the pain, confusion, and shock youre experiencing, is a huge obstacle. use this place to let yourself, not just explore every option, but feel every feeling.

On one hand, I don't think I can fix her or change her, however I might be able to manager her just a little bit better.  e.g., when she accuses me of cheating (never have), I won't be defensive or shut down - I'll just hand her my phone and show trust.

we have a workshop here on dealing with a jealous partner that i just love, its here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

i think that compliance is probably not enough here. responding better to her jealousy and accusations is nice. but if your partner is cheating, all the candor in the world does nothing for her side of the street. leading the relationship on a trajectory where there is openness and accountability, and trust, mutually, is going to be more effective in the long term. thats really something you need to be on the same page about. its a tall order, and more of a long term goal.

I understand how it happened,

how do you mean?

[EyesUp]

Excerpt
I understand how it happened,

how do you mean?


I've understood for a long time that my wife is depressed and anxious.  I've externalized this, and viewed it as her problem.  I've tried to be supportive, give space, ask open-ended questions, show concern...  it never helps.

What I realize now is that she is often in intense pain.  As her husband, I have not only failed to help alleviate the pain, I have likely exacerbated it - and from her POV I am likely the embodiment of this pain.

Eventually she received some positive attention from someone else.  It felt good, and now she's running with it and likely becoming addicted to it - probably why her judgment is so clouded. 

The strange thing is that she still initiates sex with me, and has agreed to start couples therapy...
 

[pursuingJoy]

What I realize now is that she is often in intense pain.  As her husband, I have not only failed to help alleviate the pain, I have likely exacerbated it - and from her POV I am likely the embodiment of this pain.

Can you explain how you think you exacerbated the pain?

[EyesUp]

It seems clear that while BPD thinking is often not rational, it is, nonetheless feels real to the person who is affected.

I realize now that I've been constantly challenging my wife - by attempting to help her see reason.  I've no doubt made many invalidating statements, and contributed to her twisted perception of me by triggering a great many negative, defensive, responses.

On one hand, I recognize that a healthy relationship can withstand some challenge - and we are far away from such a position.  But on the other hand, I also see that I have needlessly caused suffering - if I had learned how she sees things, I could have made a change in myself much sooner.

How is any different than in "healthy" couples, really?   Give and take.  We can only change ourselves.

Even though my wife has explosive anger and limited / flawed accountability or introspection - she is the mother of my 3 children, sometimes brilliant, and I love her.  I had no idea how my behavior might seem to her - I have been passively content to lay all blame on her depression rather than to attempt to modify how I engage and offer support.

I think I already posted this:  I wish I had discovered this site long ago!  Now, to figure out if there's a chance to recover in some way.



 

[once removed]

EyesUp, i think that that viewpoint is going to be invaluable to you, no matter what happens.

it is the strongest position from which to resolve conflict and improve a relationship - to be able to get, really get, the other persons point of view, sans agreeing or disagreeing with it (or the accompanying actions), but trying to build bridges.

few can hope to achieve that when theyre facing what you are. i would not have been able to do it. i admire your strength and clarity.

it is also the strongest position from which to approach couples therapy. it will depend on your wife too (its a good sign that shes willing to participate in couples therapy), of course, but with the help of a good professional, your odds will be better than most in a similar position.

I had no idea how my behavior might seem to her

thats one of the hardest parts for anyone who comes here, to any of the boards. we didnt know what we didnt know.

do think all of this through long term, the best you can. there are a host of scenarios that could play out, and how to respond to them wont necessarily be clear.

1. your wife could confess...either in therapy, in anger, out of guilt, if the affair crashes and burns, any number of possibilities.
2. the affair could get to an egregious point where you may not feel you have any choice but to confront her. you may have heard stories where some people engaged in affairs seemingly "want to get caught", escalate things, leave evidence.
3. in the best case scenario, where the affair ends, where your wife recommits and reinvests in the marriage, you are going to feel some complex stuff (im sure you already are), and likely over a long period of time. working through that, whether the affair comes to light or not, is going to be another kettle of fish. and even in the best case scenario, with your wifes limitations, she may struggle in terms of the most helpful response, patience, accountability, etc...things that the betrayed spouse often needs the most.

when does couples therapy start?

[gleglo2000]

Hi EyesUp,

good luck with this. It seems that you have the right approach and calmness that is required. I am in a similar situation, albeit a bit farther ahead, my BPw started an affair about six months ago, left about at the same time and now, after some three months of me using the tools from SWoE and various other books, incl. this board, she seems to have terminated the affair (at least she says so) and we are on friendly terms slowly moving back together. 

One question on the legal side (glad to start a new thread if needed):  if this moves to confrontation, is there anything I can do to keep her paramour out of my house, whether the kids or I are home, or not? 

What I did is that I almost completely left the legal questions out of the discussion, even if she was bringing it up and talking about divorce repeatedly. She asked me many times to prepare divorce papers (I am a lawyer), but I just told her that I do not want a divorce and am therefore not going to prepare the papers (did not tell her that she needed to do that herself). She claimed she could not start a new relationship while we were married, so I told her several times that I fully respected her right to decide what she wanted and if she wanted to divorce me, I would not cause trouble or fight her. I told her that it was not acceptable for me if she was seeing another man, but that I would never use this against her in a divorce (I even wrote this down on paper for her in a confrontation).  However, I did see a divorce lawyer (specialist, experienced) to have a good understanding of how the process would play out, if it came to the worst and this gave me a lot of confidence. So perhaps this would be wise to do at some point, without telling her, obviously.

When I learned about the guy being at our house (from the kids), I politely told her (quite quickly, over the phone, no accusations, just matter-of-fact) that the kids told me, that I do not want him there and asked her, whether she would respect this. She accepted it and since then, she has not brought him there. 

[EyesUp]

Thank you, gleglo2000.

I have not confronted her yet.  I've been speaking with a therapist, documenting everything, and I have spoken with a few divorce lawyers.  Here in MA, it seems infidelity is a non-issue in all matters of custody, child support, and alimony - but I am exploring how to avoid a divorce and/or mutual destruction.

I know that the affair will flame out sooner or later, but not sure I have the fortitude to do this for ~6 months or a year.

We will speak with a couples therapist for the first time this Friday.

Good luck to you, as well.