Can one person avoid the four horsemen?

[formflier]

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-the-antidotes/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=mm&utm_campaign=MM_396_The_Headless_Horseman

I regularly read content from Gottman.  Of course this post seems completely reasonable and you "know" it would work...if both people did it.

So..what about in a relationship like many of us are or have experienced?

One person comes in with a BAZOOKA loaded with (insert one or all of the four hourseman) and shoots the other with it.

How can we still find this article useful?

Best,

FF

[zachira]

I too am a fan of Gottman. I think the four horsemen is a teaching tool for those of us who are capable of having healthy relationships. By avoiding doing the four horsemen and being the best person you can be, it helps in attracting the right kind of people into your life and avoiding attracting the wrong kind of people. If you are in a relationship with an extremely disordered person, than being kind to them without enabling them, can help in lessening some of the emotional dysregulation of the disordered person in your life though not a sure thing, as people with BPD and/or NPD are known to go off the rails with no apparent triggers. I think you and I are for the most part pretty much saying the same thing, in that two partners avoiding doing the the four horsemen in healthy relationships works whereas this practice requires the ability to do it.

[Cat Familiar]

Good article and overview of the four horsemen.   Thanks for posting this, FF.

As my boundaries have strengthened, I’ve discovered another potential weakness: I can mirror negative emotions before I become aware that I’m doing it.

I caught myself almost falling into that pattern this morning when my husband was telling me a dream he had.

I seldom remember dreaming anything, and if I do, it’s almost always something really mundane. As an example, a dream I had many years ago is the quintessential Cat dream, if I have one that has a storyline, rather than just a fragment: I dreamed I was in the natural foods store, looking at different brands of tofu!

So, you can imagine, it’s quite different for me to hear about these technicolor dreams that can take over a half hour to share.

My husband told me about dreaming about working in a bookstore and inadvertently selling a rare book that was intended to be in an exhibit. His boss read him the riot act and he thought how much better it was to be a lawyer, than work in this bookstore.

As he had been telling me how responsible he felt yesterday about something which was completely out of his control, yet he still felt guilty, I had a suspicion about what the “Boss” represented in his dream.

While I made coffee, he was lamenting how someone (the Boss) could be so abusive. So I asked if he wanted to hear my thoughts. When he agreed, I asked who the Boss represented, as dreams represent parts of ourselves.

He hung his head like a little boy and I would guess that he thought I was going to say his narcissistic and really abusive father. And then he probably thought I was going to make some negative comparison about how similar he is to his father.

For a moment, I felt his feelings, or what I interpreted to be his feelings: shame, anger, sorrow, pain, frustration. Then I continued, but noted how too much empathy, or being a psychic sponge helps neither of us.

Do you remember how bad you felt yesterday, when it wasn’t at all your fault, nor responsibility? Well, that is the Boss.

He said, “Hmmmm.” I was tempted to say more, but I realized it was better not to.

[Waddams]

I regularly read content from Gottman.  Of course this post seems completely reasonable and you "know" it would work...if both people did it.

So..what about in a relationship like many of us are or have experienced?

One person comes in with a BAZOOKA loaded with (insert one or all of the four hourseman) and shoots the other with it.

How can we still find this article useful?

There's an implied assumption in Gottman's article. It is that both people have to value each other as individuals. They have to respect each other as separate entities.

Disordered people like what this site is dedicated to make no such distinction. They don't respect or value you as an individual at all, only for what they can squeeze out of you and use you for. You're not a person to them, you are just another tool to be discarded when you're no longer useful. In that scenario, you can try to disarm Gottman's 4 horsemen all you want, use his techniques or others, and it won't make one little bit of difference. Your partner isn't trying to figure things out and relationship build with you. Your partner has an agenda to simply chew you up and spit you out like a piece of gum when the taste is gone.

There's no applicability at all of this article to the issues that people in relationships with abusive, disordered individuals. Zilch, nada, zipola.

After getting sucked in multiple times, the only thing that works is to get unsucked in and not be with these vampires. There is no managing it, there is no "radical acceptance" that will ever result in anything other than you having to constantly take a big bite of a sh*t sandwich every time you have to radically accept another attack "because they are sick." That's complete and utter crapolla. These people don't get better. They can get medicated and zombified, but they don't get better. The only way to a life that is improved, and even to an improved relationship, is to get away from these nutjobs, go figure out why you got sucked in, and THEN maybe go find a new relationship for the improved relationship goal.

[Cat Familiar]

Waddams, I think you are making some extreme generalizations. BPD is a spectrum disorder and though some individuals who are extemely impaired in their interpersonal relationships may not be willing to respect or value their partners, others, who only have BPD traits are certainly capable of doing so.

[Delphi]

Sporadic lurker, but first time poster here. Interesting thread. I do think the four horseman can be somewhat applicable in a relationship with someone who has BPD, not as things to expect from both parties, but as things to actively avoid adding into the relationship. I struggle with some more than others, that's for sure. For example...

I can avoid criticizing my partner and--when I am approaching them with something potentially critical--I can frame it as an I statement. Can I respond to their critical statements with "when you say X I feel sad?" No, don't have those skills yet and I admittedly might not recommend it as the statement may appear invalidating just on its own. But if I don't respond with compiled criticism or with defensiveness, I consider that a win.

I can remember the things I appreciate about my significant other and I can actively refrain from attacking their sense of self worth even when I perceive them as having contempt for me (well, most of the time...I have my bad days). I cannot prevent myself from feeling and even having some thoughts of contempt. But I don't think that's necessary--we can't control our internal experiences so thoroughly. I do my best not to show it but can work on that too (e.g. not sighing so much.)

I'm definitely guilty of defensiveness AND I accept blame for things I did wrong. I will get drawn into arguments over who said what and whose actions started the conflict and I really need to stop that. But I do apologize for things I did genuinely mess up and I think that helps.

The stonewalling part is a little tricky. I definitely withdraw from conflict once it is already taking place by leaving the conversation. I do not do it as a way to convey disapproval or separation. I withdraw because if I don't I know that I will be emotionally overwhelmed and will add fuel to the fire. I also do not take the time away to self-soothe with something distracting, as nice as that sounds. I take the time away to ugly cry and to ask myself if I did something against my own sense of wrong to figure out whether I need to apologize or set a boundary or what to do next.